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On 3/27/2023 at 7:59 AM, nik854866 said:

Did randyll tarly had a son that died in the battle from robert  baratheon told baristan selmy?

On 3/27/2023 at 7:30 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

That was show only.

It would have been a younger brother to Randyll, still potentially canon for the books. 

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38 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

When something isn't mentioned in the books, it's not canon for the books. Since this is the book forum, I gave OP a book-related answer.

But the show was talking about a brother, which we don't know if Randyll had in the books. 

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On 4/2/2023 at 3:09 AM, GZ Bloodraven said:

But the show was talking about a brother, which we don't know if Randyll had in the books. 

As long as it is not in the books its not canon so until there is a book mention we have to assume that this is show only.

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11 hours ago, direpupy said:

As long as it is not in the books its not canon so until there is a book mention we have to assume that this is show only.

That's why I said it's potentially canon, like Kinvara, Ros or Talisa existing in the books. They don't currently, but the "canon" lines blur considering ASOIAF and the show take place in ostensibly the same universe canonically, just with different initial conditions. 

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14 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

That's why I said it's potentially canon, like Kinvara, Ros or Talisa existing in the books. They don't currently, but the "canon" lines blur considering ASOIAF and the show take place in ostensibly the same universe canonically, just with different initial conditions. 

Potentionaly canon are things mentioned by GRRM but not in the books show is not canon until its gets a mention. There is no blur show and book have always been strictly seperate even GRRM himselfs has said this.

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17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Potentionaly canon are things mentioned by GRRM but not in the books show is not canon until its gets a mention. There is no blur show and book have always been strictly seperate even GRRM himselfs has said this.

George has said he doesn't really care about "canon" but he does about story, and the books and the show are telling two different stories. But he hasn't been as clear about the world: are they the same Planetos (as I would assume) or are they fundamentally different. I'd say that Randyll Tarly having a brother who died in Robert's Rebellion is potentially canon to the books: neither confirmed nor denied in the books, but suggested as part of the world of the show

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10 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

George has said he doesn't really care about "canon" but he does about story, and the books and the show are telling two different stories. But he hasn't been as clear about the world: are they the same Planetos (as I would assume) or are they fundamentally different. I'd say that Randyll Tarly having a brother who died in Robert's Rebellion is potentially canon to the books: neither confirmed nor denied in the books, but suggested as part of the world of the show

I differ of opinion and do not believe in something like potentially there is canon and there is semicanon, books are canon anything said or written by George outside the books is semicanon show is only showcanon with no implication to book canon or semicanon

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2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I differ of opinion and do not believe in something like potentially there is canon and there is semicanon, books are canon anything said or written by George outside the books is semicanon show is only showcanon with no implication to book canon or semicanon

Yep sorry @GZ Bloodraven but they are right. Your "potentially canon" is simply called your "headcanon", whether you choose to believe that Robert killed a Tarly or not is up to you, but it has nothing to do with the book canon.

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8 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Yep sorry @GZ Bloodraven but they are right. Your "potentially canon" is simply called your "headcanon", whether you choose to believe that Robert killed a Tarly or not is up to you, but it has nothing to do with the book canon.

It would be full headcanon if it weren't in the show. But saying "Talisa Maegyr exists in the world of Westeros" or "Robert Baratheon killed a Tarly boy in Robert's Rebellion in the world Westeros" isn't just headcanon; it is a version of universe-canon.

9 hours ago, direpupy said:

I differ of opinion and do not believe in something like potentially there is canon and there is semicanon, books are canon anything said or written by George outside the books is semicanon show is only showcanon with no implication to book canon or semicanon

This doesn't make sense to me: in one version of universe-canon, Ellaria's daughter is Tyene; in another, Ellaria's daughter is Elia. Both of these are potentially canon to the world of A Song of Ice and Fire: what story are you dealing with, why are you dealing with that story, what does the different universe (or medium) say about the story? What else would you call this discrepency, show vs. book canon I guess, but that doesn't tell us about the actual world that A Song of Ice and Fire takes place in; its timeline, its physics, its rules, its truth and its false.

I also agree with semicanon in certain instances, but in instances like Jon's mom; we know what is semicanon for the world of A Song of Ice and Fire because of the show and the things he wrote for it.

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Agree with everyone else here: stuff from the show that are show inventions, especially stuff made after George stopped contributing to scripts, does not have any privileged "potentially canon" status. It's show stuff, that's it. It's like saying someone's fan fiction is "potentially canon" just because they write things that are not explicitly contradictory to the canon.

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36 minutes ago, Ran said:

Agree with everyone else here: stuff from the show that are show inventions, especially stuff made after George stopped contributing to scripts, does not have any privileged "potentially canon" status. It's show stuff, that's it. It's like saying someone's fan fiction is "potentially canon" just because they write things that are not explicitly contradictory to the canon.

I guess I'm overthinking this, and maybe it's the medium switch, but the show produced by George, with four episodes written by George, seems to be more canon (at least up to season 4) than stuff he says in interviews. Is that a wrong way to think about it? 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Seriously, how on earth can Talisa be “potentially canon”? 

Malaquo Maegyr had a daughter who didn't like his war-mongering bullshit and went to Westeros to heal people during the war? In a version of a George R.R. Martin-written story in his world, there is a Talisa Maegyr who writes a letter to her mother in Volantis. How canon is that version? I'd say potentially. 

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8 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I guess I'm overthinking this, and maybe it's the medium switch, but the show produced by George, with four episodes written by George, seems to be more canon (at least up to season 4) than stuff he says in interviews. Is that a wrong way to think about it? 

I think you hit the head on the nail with overthinking, George himself has said book and show are two seperate things so we should treat them as such.

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5 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Malaquo Maegyr had a daughter who didn't like his war-mongering bullshit and went to Westeros to heal people during the war? In a version of a George R.R. Martin-written story in his world, there is a Talisa Maegyr who writes a letter to her mother in Volantis. How canon is that version? I'd say potentially. 

A character made up for the show to replace a canon bookcharacter, id say its not canon at all for the book universe.

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10 hours ago, direpupy said:

I think you hit the head on the nail with overthinking, George himself has said book and show are two seperate things so we should treat them as such.

They are two separate stories obviously, but they seem to be patently set in the same universe. In other words, the show is not just some fanfiction added on top of an already-existing world, but contains George-written ASOIAF content that should have a privileged status of canonicity. But like I said, I might be overthinking that and the show really does have nothing to do with the book and the episodes written by George were not written by bookwriter-George but by screenwriter-George. But that also seems silly and convoluted, I don't know.

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

A character made up for the show to replace a canon bookcharacter, id say its not canon at all for the book universe.

No, we don't know if Malaquo has a daughter in the books, it just seems likely that he has kids and we know that Talisa Maegyr exists in some universe of ASOIAF and so I would say it is potentially canon to say that Talisa is Malaquo's daughter (or relative of some sort). It's not replacing a book character.

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13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

They are two separate stories obviously, but they seem to be patently set in the same universe. In other words, the show is not just some fanfiction added on top of an already-existing world, but contains George-written ASOIAF content that should have a privileged status of canonicity. But like I said, I might be overthinking that and the show really does have nothing to do with the book and the episodes written by George were not written by bookwriter-George but by screenwriter-George. But that also seems silly and convoluted, I don't know.

George himself has said they are seperate things  not stories, sothere is nothing convoluted about it.

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

No, we don't know if Malaquo has a daughter in the books, it just seems likely that he has kids and we know that Talisa Maegyr exists in some universe of ASOIAF and so I would say it is potentially canon to say that Talisa is Malaquo's daughter (or relative of some sort). It's not replacing a book character.

She was literaly anouced as the replacement for Jeyne Westerling who they cut from the show, she was made to replace a book character and as such is not canon whatsoever.

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