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Most Unlikely Character to Turn Villainous


Craving Peaches
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Too many characters to go over, so I'll rank the "six main characters" from least unlikely to go bad to most:

6.  Tyrion:  All of the other characters started out as somewhat innocent (and children).  Tyrion was bad from the beginning, and only has gotten worse.  While I think all the other 5 characters will be "tested" by exterior trials, Tyrion's own issues are from within.  I think he will continue becoming worse.

5.  Daenerys:  Her "fire and blood" and "dragons plant no trees" cliffhanger in her last written chapter, her sense of entitlement to rule the world, and her blindness to her own family's evils while wanting to enact revenge on those who rightfully overthrew them don't speak well for her future... and Tyrion becoming her likely advisor won't help her any.  I think she will do terrible things, but I also give her a 50/50 chance of turning back before the end.  (Tyrion won't.)

4.  Arya:  Her circumstances are terrible and so is her environment, but she still has her conscience inside that she's trying to oppress.  The longer she is in her death cult, the worse she will get... but I think she'll break free sooner than later.  Like Dany, I think she will get worse before she gets better, but I don't think she will go as bad as Dany, and I'm 100% certain she will repent before the end.

3.  Jon:  I would list him as #1, seeing as how he is one of the most virtuous characters in Westeros who always does what he thinks is right.  But... there is the whole dying and raising from the dead thing, and that's where Jon's chance of going bad comes in.  That said, I don't think Beric or Stoneheart is a blueprint for Jon.  He will be in the body of Ghost for a while and come back more "wolf-like", but is capturing some of Ghost's personality traits really a bad thing?  Ghost is a good boy.

2.  Bran:  The embodiment of innocence in the beginning of the story (also the youngest), I don't think he's going to go bad.  I do think that Bloodraven has nefarious motives, so Bran may be tricked into some dark actions before breaking free from his spell, but eventually he will.

1.  Sansa:  All the other characters are going down a darker path, but Sansa is the most improved character.  Her thoughts are obscured from us for plot reasons, but I don't believe for a second she's turning into Petyr's dark minion.  She'll turn the tables on him when she gets the chance, and I think there's little chance of her going bad.  (George's statement about a "controversial Sansa chapter" is my only hesitation on this claim, but "controversial" could mean anything.)

Edited by StarkTullies
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How about Marg?  I don't think she's villainous.  She would have made a good queen, but we won't get to see it.  I bet all the little birds in the walls would have got beets 3 times a day if she was queen.  

We are going through some pretty obvious characters here, but mention of Meera above lit me right on Jojen.  I think Jojen is such a good kid with a lousy personality.  An awkward teenybopper, that one.  So how about Myranda Royce who is provocative or Jeyne Poole, who we saw a little mean girl with Arya at first, idol worship with Sansa and boy the bottom dropped out of her world.  Is she going to act out against all that's happened to her?  Hot Pie, a bully, a little punk who just needed a pack to find his way to a real home?  Sarella Sand, who we know is not what he appears to be but seems to be OK?  How about lovely mysterious Val?  Who's team is she really on?  How about Jeyne Westerling?  Has her Mom beat any sense into her yet so she really can go to the Westerlands quietly? Justin Massey?  Wex?

There are so many minor players who could go either way.  We don't see a lot or know a lot.  They might surprise us all.  

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What is villainy?

Any leader in this world has to be willing to send soldiers to their deaths, to starve their enemies, to torture and execute criminals and traitors.

A good leader has to be a bit of a bastard.  Our leaders in WWII had a bit of a bastard in them, and thank God for it!  Leaders who shrank from doing what needed to be done, would have been fatal for the free world.

Jon Snow is by no means a Boy Scout.  His treatment of Gilly was decidedly nasty, he tortured prisoners, and took children hostage, and his internal monologue suggests that he would execute them, if their parents stepped out of line.  This is not about bashing Jon.  This is about accepting that a leader, operating in harsh conditions, will be ruthless. 

Dany is a bit of a bastard in ASOS.  And you know what?  Tens of thousands of people were released from hell, as a result.  It's when she tried to be Ms. Nice Girl that everything started to go tits up.  The Slavers swallowed every concession she made to them, and they started to return innocents to hell.

Mercy towards the wicked, means cruelty towards the innocent.  There is nothing virtuous about allowing wicked people free rein because you think it's wrong to punish them.

No society turns overnight, from medieval values of justice and punishment to those of a modern liberal democracy (the latter being nowhere near as enlightened as we might like to imagine).  Progress is incremental, and achieving progress requires fire and blood.

Edited by SeanF
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2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Too many characters to go over, so I'll rank the "six main characters" from least unlikely to go bad to most:

6.  Tyrion:  All of the other characters started out as somewhat innocent (and children).  Tyrion was bad from the beginning, and only has gotten worse.  While I think all the other 5 characters will be "tested" by exterior trials, Tyrion's own issues are from within.  I think he will continue becoming worse.

5.  Daenerys:  Her "fire and blood" and "dragons plant no trees" cliffhanger in her last written chapter, her sense of entitlement to rule the world, and her blindness to her own family's evils while wanting to enact revenge on those who rightfully overthrew them don't speak well for her future... and Tyrion becoming her likely advisor won't help her any.  I think she will do terrible things, but I also give her a 50/50 chance of turning back before the end.  (Tyrion won't.)

4.  Arya:  Her circumstances are terrible and so is her environment, but she still has her conscience inside that she's trying to oppress.  The longer she is in her death cult, the worse she will get... but I think she'll break free sooner than later.  Like Dany, I think she will get worse before she gets better, but I don't think she will go as bad as Dany, and I'm 100% certain she will repent before the end.

3.  Jon:  I would list him as #1, seeing as how he is one of the most virtuous characters in Westeros who always does what he thinks is right.  But... there is the whole dying and raising from the dead thing, and that's where Jon's chance of going bad comes in.  That said, I don't think Beric or Stoneheart is a blueprint for Jon.  He will be in the body of Ghost for a while and come back more "wolf-like", but is capturing some of Ghost's personality traits really a bad thing?  Ghost is a good boy.

2.  Bran:  The embodiment of innocence in the beginning of the story (also the youngest), I don't think he's going to go bad.  I do think that Bloodraven has nefarious motives, so Bran may be tricked into some dark actions before breaking free from his spell, but eventually he will.

1.  Sansa:  All the other characters are going down a darker path, but Sansa is the most improved character.  Her thoughts are obscured from us for plot reasons, but I don't believe for a second she's turning into Petyr's dark minion.  She'll turn the tables on him when she gets the chance, and I think there's little chance of her going bad.  (George's statement about a "controversial Sansa chapter" is my only hesitation on this claim, but "controversial" could mean anything.)

I’m not bashing Sansa to say that if she attains power she will commit acts of brutality.  Because, that is in the nature of leadership.

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12 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

5.  Daenerys:  Her "fire and blood" and "dragons plant no trees" cliffhanger in her last written chapter,

 

Meaning her finally deciding to return to Westeros and being done with compromising with the slavers

 

12 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

her sense of entitlement to rule the world,

 

Where does she say/think she wants to rule the world?

 

12 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

and her blindness to her own family's evils

 

"And my father? Was there some woman he loved better than his queen?"
Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. "Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …"
"I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest."
"As you command." The white knight chose his words with care. "Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding."His face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I—"
"Gracious queen, well met!" Another procession had come up beside her own, and Hizdahr zo Loraq was smiling at her from his own sedan chair. My king. Dany wondered where Daario Naharis was, what he was doing. If this were a story, he would gallop up just as we reached the temple, to challenge Hizdahr for my hand. (ADWD, Daenerys VII)
 
So Barristan did not get to tell her everything about her father because they got interrupted but she expects to hear very bad things about him
 
"One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?" (ASOS, Daenerys VI)
 
12 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

while wanting to enact revenge on those who rightfully overthrew them

 

Her father being mad does not exempt the rebells of Rhaenys and Aegon's murders and not punishing their murderers. Plus, it's likely that Rhaegar wanted to depose his father more quietly and without that much war :

 

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." (AFFC, Jamie I)

Edited by Oana_Mika
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3 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Meaning her finally deciding to return to Westeros and being done with compromising with the slavers

But you can't deny that planting no trees isn't exactly positive sentiment. Fire and Blood is no good if there's no rebuilding done afterwards. Astapor is meant to show Daenerys that you can't just show up, fight and then leave (yes I know she put a council in place but she also stripped the city of its ability to defend itself), because Astapor goes right back to slaving so all Daenerys accomplished there is loss of life. And unlike with the slavers she's on much flimsier moral ground if she tries to go all 'Fire and Blood' on Westeros. And there is a food shortage so I would actually like a leader who does plant trees.

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6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But you can't deny that planting no trees isn't exactly positive sentiment. Fire and Blood is no good if there's no rebuilding done afterwards. Astapor is meant to show Daenerys that you can't just show up, fight and then leave (yes I know she put a council in place but she also stripped the city of its ability to defend itself), because Astapor goes right back to slaving so all Daenerys accomplished there is loss of life. And unlike with the slavers she's on much flimsier moral ground if she tries to go all 'Fire and Blood' on Westeros. And there is a food shortage so I would actually like a leader who does plant trees.

 

Daenerys does plant trees in Meereen and works to rebuild a new economy :

 

"We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive. What of copper?"  (ADWD, Daenerys III)

"So we pray. I want to plant my olive trees and see them fruit." (ADWD, Daenerys VII)

 

And what makes you think she did not learned from her mistakes in Astapor, when it's precisely that why she stayed in Meereen?

"My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again." She turned back to look at their faces. "I will not march."  (ASOS, Daenerys VI)

 

Also, what she acomplishes in Astapor the liberations of thousands of slaves and the sparing of thousands of babies to be butchered, plus dogs. I agree though that she should have let millitary protection.

 

I just want to add that I've seen many people that IMO use the "dragon plant no trees" out of context,  when right before that quote (which is Jorah from her projections who says it), she says this : "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

 

So to me, it's more like what Jorah would have told her, the way she thinks what Viserys would, not necessarily that she fully embraced that. For me, that moment is not at all triumphant, giving that she wanted the opposite. I also want to point out, that right after she embraces her family's words, the dothraki find her, so without that, she would likely would have gotten killed,raped and/or enslaved. Plus, she had no way to avoid war with Volantis so it's good that she is ready for that.

 

Edited by Oana_Mika
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20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But you can't deny that planting no trees isn't exactly positive sentiment. Fire and Blood is no good if there's no rebuilding done afterwards. Astapor is meant to show Daenerys that you can't just show up, fight and then leave (yes I know she put a council in place but she also stripped the city of its ability to defend itself), because Astapor goes right back to slaving so all Daenerys accomplished there is loss of life. And unlike with the slavers she's on much flimsier moral ground if she tries to go all 'Fire and Blood' on Westeros. And there is a food shortage so I would actually like a leader who does plant trees.

That depends upon who she’s fighting.  With Euron and his followers, or the Others, fire and blood will be needed.  When the Wall comes down, all leaders of the fight will have to be ruthless.

Edited by SeanF
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4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Also, what she acomplishes in Astapor the liberations of thousands of slaves and the sparing of thousands of babies to be butchered, plus dogs.

But then the city goes right back over to slavery.

4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And what makes you think she did not learned from her mistakes in Astapor, when it's precisely that why she stayed in Meereen?

Because after staying for a while she still ultimately concludes that 'Dragons plant no trees'.

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

With Euron and his followers, or the Others, fire and blood will be needed.

To remove him yes, but unless she's planning on also rebuilding that will not help people that much because they will all starve to death.

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