Most Unlikely Character to Turn Villainous

[Oana_Mika]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But then the city goes right back over to slavery.

And she is guilty of what Cleon does? She had an indirect part in him crowning himself, but ultimately, the blame is on him.

 

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because after staying for a while she still ultimately concludes that 'Dragons plant no trees'.

I edited to add more to my answer and I see you did not see it, so I'll just quote myself:

6 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

I just want to add that I've seen many people that IMO use the "dragon plant no trees" out of context,  when right before that quote (which is Jorah from her projections who says it), she says this : "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

So to me, it's more like what Jorah would have told her, the way she thinks what Viserys would, not necessarily that she fully embraced that. For me, that moment is not at all triumphant, giving that she wanted the opposite. I also want to point out, that right after she embraces her family's words, the dothraki find her, so without that, she would likely would have gotten killed,raped and/or enslaved. Plus, she had no way to avoid war with Volantis so it's good that she is ready for that.

 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

And she is guily of what Cleon does? She had an indierct part in him crowning himself, but ultimately, the blame is on him.

Yes, but if Daenerys didn't just leave the City with no protection, Cleon never would have risen to power, it is a pretty basic thing to leave them without. And as a result, they go right back over to slavery, so the situation is right back where it started. Actually it is worse because there was a huge food shortage and then they were all slaughtered.

4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I also want to point out, that right after she embraces her family's words, the dothraki find her, so without that, she would likely would have gotten killed,raped and/or enslaved.

I don't know how you can say that given the chapter ends with the Dothraki just finding her, and nothing further happens.

[Oana_Mika]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know how you can say that given the chapter ends with the Dothraki just finding her, and nothing further happens.

Nothing further happenes because the chapter ends right there :

 

As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon.

That was how Khal Jhaqo found her, when half a hundred mounted warriors emerged from the drifting smoke. (ADWD, Daenerys X)

 

And here is when she finds a scout :

 

One rider, and alone. A scout. He was one who rode before the khalasar to find the game and the good green grass, and sniff out foes wherever they might hide. If he found her there, he would kill her, rape her, or enslave her. At best, he would send her back to the crones of the dosh khaleen, where good khaleesi were supposed to go when their khals had died.  (ADWD, Daenerys X)

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Nothing further happenes because the echapter ends right there :

Yes, I am confused. The chapter ends when Khal Jhaqo finds her.

[Oana_Mika]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I am confused. The chapter ends when Khal Jhaqo finds her.

No problem, happenes.

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

No problem, happenes.

 

Happens all the time to me. I think I need to get more sleep. Issue is I already get 7-8 hours per night...

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But then the city goes right back over to slavery.

Because after staying for a while she still ultimately concludes that 'Dragons plant no trees'.

To remove him yes, but unless she's planning on also rebuilding that will not help people that much because they will all starve to death.

There’s nothing triumphalist or vindictive about “a dragon plants no trees.”  It’s her concluding that her efforts to bring peace to Meereen were a failure.

This a world at war, not a world at peace.  The skillset which is needed of a ruler is that of a war leader.  It is very rare for any leader to be good both at war, and at peace.  They’re different skillsets.

When peace is attained, then a different type of leader will be required.

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

There’s nothing triumphalist or vindictive about “a dragon plants no trees.”  It’s her concluding that efforts to bring peace to Meereen were a failure.

This a world at war, not a world at peace.  The skillset which is needed of a ruler is that of a war leader.  It is very rare for any leader to be good both at war, and at peace.  They’re different skillsets.

I do think she is a good peace time ruler, because she is ideed capable of many efforts to give peace and prosperity, but she tried to be a peace time ruler where there was time for war. As the widow of waterfront said, half of the world wants her dead (and we see Volantis' coalition, whom came from many parts which Dany did not even set foot on) so IDK how she would have gotten away out of that with peace.

 

[Oana_Mika]

And IDK how anyone reads her ADWD, where she compromises everything for peace, does everything she can to rebuilt and even plans in case the slavers plan to brake "the peace", pases taxes, laws, makes trades, plants, openes guilds to the freedmen so they have more opportunities and concludes she does not know how to rebuilt. Only because she concluded that the peace was not worth all the compromises she and her people were put through, does not mean she does not value peace at all.

 

"A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I've heard it said. Three days?"  (ADWD, Jon XI)

 

It seems to me, the only unhappy here with this peace were Dany and her people.

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And IDK how anyone reads her ADWD, where she compromises everything for peace, does everything she can to rebuilt and even plans in case the slavers plan to brake "the peace", pases taxes, laws, makes trades, plants, openes guilds to the freedmen so they have more opportunities and concludes she does not know how to rebuilt. Only because she concluded that the peace was not worth all the compromises she and her people were put through, does not mean she does not value peace at all.

 

"A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I've heard it said. Three days?"  (ADWD, Jon XI)

 

It seems to me, the only unhappy here with this peace were Dany and her people.

It one of the parts of the Meereenese Blot that has me scratching my head - the claim that the slavers are making big concessions.

Exactly what did they concede?

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

It one of the parts of the Meereenese Blot that has me scratching my head - the claim that the slavers are making big concessions.

Exactly what did they concede?

I guess having to let Dany and her people live is a bit much for them.

[Alester Florent]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It one of the parts of the Meereenese Blot that has me scratching my head - the claim that the slavers are making big concessions.

Exactly what did they concede?

The slavers in Meereen are making significant concessions: they're giving up a huge part of their way of life.

The slavers in Yunkai, less so. But they are still permitting the conversion of their trading partner, ally and neighbour into an ideologically hostile (and more powerful) state, and forgoing the opportunity to strangle it at birth. This will doubtless come at future cost to them.

[Oana_Mika]

8 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The slavers in Meereen are making significant concessions: they're giving up a huge part of their way of life.

They have most of their wealth intact, they got the fighting pits reopened, one of them ruling along Daneyers and they hired the freedmen as such low wages that they scarcely afford to eat. I does not seem to me such huge difference in their way of living.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The slavers in Meereen are making significant concessions: they're giving up a huge part of their way of life.

The slavers in Yunkai, less so. But they are still permitting the conversion of their trading partner, ally and neighbour into an ideologically hostile (and more powerful) state, and forgoing the opportunity to strangle it at birth. This will doubtless come at future cost to them.

The Meereenese masters have lost their slaves already, as at the start of ADWD.  From then on, it’s all pure gain for them.

They get a share of power that is disproportionate to their numbers, they have the dragons chained up, the fighting pits reopened, a slave market established outside the city, and their friends are occupying Meereenese territory with a big army.

The Yunkish start off, barred by treaty from keeping slaves.  By the end, they’ve got compensation for their slaves Dany liberated, and recognition as a slave power.

That’s a leonine bargain, especially when the Volantenes are on their way.

It will likely end terribly for them, in TWOW,  but only because they had learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

[StarkTullies]

5 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Meaning her finally deciding to return to Westeros and being done with compromising with the slavers

"Dragons plant no trees" with no other context means she is sailing for Westeros, sure.  It means she is does with peace, and her attempts at peace in Meereen didn't work for I don't fault her for that.  Going to Westeros embracing violence (fire and blood) combined with altogether disregarding peace (dragons plant no tree) is not a good sign.  Neither is classifying herself as a dragon, whom I consider to be monsters.  And so did Dany:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

For the record, I like Dany in this phase of the books.  A moment of self-reflection and desire for self-improvement.  She disregards all that at the end.  The Meereen storyline is not just pointless filler to keep Dany in the story until she sails for Westeros; it is about how she becomes the person she will be when she sails.  All the previous events culminate in her final decisions at the end.  We can disagree what we think she will do (obviously we do), but the only thing we can agree on is that we just have to wait and see what she will do.

5 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Where does she says/thinks she want to rule the world?

Okay, sorry for the hyperbole.  She doesn't.  Just all of Slavers Bay and Westeros.  That's more than enough.

5 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

"One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?" (ASOS, Daenerys VI)

I know she asks Barristan to learn all there is of her father, but there is no condemnation of him: not once ever.  "Blindness to her family's evils" was poor wording; I didn't mean she is unaware.  She is aware and doesn't care, and that is far worse.

Dany also says this:

Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty.

  

5 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Her father being mad does not exempt the rebells of Rhaenys and Aegon's murders and not punishing their murderers.

I agree.  Tywin Lannister is the worst villain in the first three books, and authorizing the murder of these babies is one of many reasons why he is so deplorable.  Mad King Aerys still needed to be overthrown.  Maybe Rhaegar planned to peacefully remove his deplorable father, and if so, great.  That changes nothing in regard to Dany's vengeful thoughts toward the "Usurper and his dogs".  Her vengeful thoughts aren't about the murders of her nephew and niece, but about rebelling against their "rightful king" in the first place.

[Oana_Mika]

Quote

"Dragons plant no trees" with no other context means she is sailing for Westeros, sure.  It means she is does with peace, and her attempts at peace in Meereen didn't work for I don't fault her for that. 

 

The context for "dragons plant no trees" is this : "It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl." (ADWD, Daenerys X) to which her projection of Jorah, responds with that. So "fire and blood" is not what she really wishes. Also, her embracing her house words was a good timing since dothrakis find her and Volantis wages war with her so I'm glad she's ready to battle. I also want to say that, I don't take what she projects what Viserys or Jorah might tell her literally, because that's just what she feels/thinks those people will respond to what she goes through : Viserys of course will be scornful and disdainful towards her, accuse her and Jorah as always, will insists to her to sail for Westeros. And another thing - Martin also asociates this moment with her going home : 

 

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.” - http://shelf-life.ew.com/.../george-r-r-martin-winds.../

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Going to Westeros embracing violence (fire and blood) combined with altogether disregarding peace (dragons plant no tree) is not a good sign. 

 

She disregards the peace with slavers, not peace in general. It does not mean mindless killing, as you seem to see it. It just means that if she wants home, if she wants that the people who will remain there attempt to live as they wish, she has to fight for that. No one will let her stay in Westeros or leave her people alone because she says "pretty please".

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Neither is classifying herself as a dragon, whom I consider to be monsters.  And so did Dany:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

I completely disagree here. I do not see dragons as monsters, I see them as her strenght because even before they hatched, the only times she found strenght and confort was after her dragon dream and when she is close around the eggs.

Also, this line is right after she cages her dragons because of Hazzea, so ofc she feels guilty. Daenerys is also very self critical and has pretty low self esteem.

BTW, the slaves/former slaves, do no see them as monsters either, the only ones who see them like that are the slavers :

"The count will pass thirty before midday. Why do you look so grey, old man? What did you expect? The Harpy wants Hizdahr free, so he has sent his sons back into the streets with knives in hand. The dead are all freedmen and shavepates, as before. One was mine, a Brazen Beast. The sign of the Harpy was left beside the bodies, chalked on the pavement or scratched into a wall. There were messages as well. 'Dragons must die,' they wrote, and 'Harghaz the Hero.' 'Death to Daenerys' was seen as well, before the rain washed out the words." (ADWD, The Queen's Hand)

 

And when a man in a blue-and-gold tokar began to speak of Harghaz the Hero, a freedman behind him shoved him to the floor. (ADWD, The Discarded Knight)

 

"The others shall remain our guests," announced the Yunkish lord in the breastplate, "until the dragons have been destroyed."

A hush fell across the hall. Then came the murmurs and the mutters, whispered curses, whispered prayers, the hornets stirring in their hive. "The dragons …" said King Hizdahr.

 

"… are monsters, as all men saw in Daznak's Pit. No true peace is possible whilst they live." (ADWD, The Discarded Knight)

 

Half the city is calling the dragonslayer a hero, and the other half spits blood at the mention of his name. (ADWD The Spurned Suitor)

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

For the record, I like Dany in this phase of the books.  A moment of self-reflection and desire for self-improvement.  She disregards all that at the end.  The Meereen storyline is not just pointless filler to keep Dany in the story until she sails for Westeros; it is about how she becomes the person she will be when she sails.  All the previous events culminate in her final decisions at the end.  We can disagree what we think she will do (obviously we do), but the only thing we can agree on is that we just have to wait and see what she will do.

 

I agree with her Meereen storyline not being pointless and filler and that we disagree with what we think she will do, but I disagree with your statement that she disregards self-reflection and disre for self-improvement. Daenerys does not disregard to self-improve. She disregards appeasing to the masters, which she was trying to get back to in the same chapter : Drogon had bent before the whip, and so must she. (ADWD, Daenerys X) and I must add that Daenerys being more ruthless is not a bad thing, because you need some ruthlesness to rule well :

 

Interviewer: Which of your characters would you say is the most suitable to be a leader nowadays and why?

GRRM: Which of my characters would be a leader in this day and age? Well, you know, probably Tyrion… Tyrion is very smart, he is also very ruthless sadly which you need. I don’t necessarily think he would be a beloved leader, but you know, he has the intellectual ability to do it, he has a certain understanding of politics, and he has a lot of experience in the dark side of humanity, so he wouldn’t be too naive for the job. He might be a good choice.

Interviewer: I agree, very good.

GRRM: Dany would also be an interesting choice if we could bring her dragons along. The recent American election might have turned out very different if Hillary Clinton had dragons. (Source - around 31:20)

 

"If Daenerys is no more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces."

"Fear not, my little friend. The blood of Aegon the Dragon flows in her veins." (ADWD, Tyrion II)

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Okay, sorry for the hyperbole.  She doesn't.  Just all of Slavers Bay and Westeros.  That's more than enough.

She does not want to rule all Slaver's Bay. She only stayed to rule Meereen because she did not want to abandon her people :

 

"Many and more of us would die."
"Those left behind in Meereen would envy them their easy deaths," moaned Reznak. "They will make slaves of us, or throw us in the pits. All will be as it was, or worse."
"Where is your courage?" Ser Barristan lashed out. "Her Grace freed you from your chains. It is for you to sharpen your swords and defend your own freedom when she leaves."
"Brave words, from one who means to sail into the sunset," Symon Stripeback snarled back. "Will you look back at our dying?"
"Your Grace-"
"Magnificence-"
"Your Worship-"
"Enough. " Dany slapped the table. "No one will be left to die. You are all my people." Her dreams of home and love had blinded her. "I will not abandon Meereen to the fate of Astapor. It grieves me to say so, but Westeros must wait." (ADWD,Daenerys III)

 

She indeed wants to rule Westeros because as all characters, she believes in birthright so IDK why such a fus about it.

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I know she asks Barristan to learn all there is of her father, but there is no condemnation of him: not once ever.  "Blindness to her family's evils" was poor wording; I didn't mean she is unaware.  She is aware and doesn't care, and that is far worse.

Dany also says this:

Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty.

Barristan simply tries not to be blunt. IDK who do you think would like to hear atrocities about their father. You don't have to hear details and exactly what happened to know that he was bad, that's why she asks if it's something good about him. With what exactly will help her to know how Aerys tortured people? She knows that people called him mad for a reason and Idk how do you think she does not care if she asks Barristan about all Aerys did, only that they get interrupted.

 

As for the quote about Lannisters and Starks, she is judging Ned as being complice, although he did not took part in that, nor liked it. Yes, she is being harsh with him, but he was best friend with the person who rewarded Aegon's and Rhaenys' death so ofc she won't have warm feelings towards him. I do think though that she will warm up to Ned, when she finds out that he fostered Rhaegar's son.

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Maybe Rhaegar planned to peacefully remove his deplorable father, and if so, great. 

Maybe

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."  (AFFC, Jaime I)

 

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

That changes nothing in regard to Dany's vengeful thoughts toward the "Usurper and his dogs". 

The only "dog" that's left is Jaime, IDK why that worries you, unless you like that character and worry what might happen to him.

13 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Her vengeful thoughts aren't about the murders of her nephew and niece, but about rebelling against their "rightful king" in the first place.

IDK form where you get that idea, because she thinks about what happened to them, and that's why she does not consider Robert a true king, because he did no justice, he did not punished those crimes :

 

Dany remembered the story Viserys had told her, of what the Usurper's dogs had done to Rhaegar's children. His son had been a babe as well, yet they had ripped him from his mother's breast and dashed his head against a wall. That was the way of men. (AGOT; Daenerys VIII)

"I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn't have done that. He wasn't just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"
"Some kings make themselves. Robert did."

"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."(ASOS; Daenerys III)

"Have you forgotten Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon?" 
"Never. That was Lannister work, Your Grace."(ADWD,Daenerys II)

She wants to retake the throne in the name of her family, which includes them, not simply because they rebelled against Aerys.

 

 

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Bran is my pick as the least likely. And Arya too. 

Arya is already a villain and has become evil. Bran is heading there too.  

[James Arryn]

Hodor? Hodor!

[Aldarion]

Hodor.

[Morte]

Has anyone already mentioned Podrick?