Would Lady Stoneheart hang Olyvar Frey?

[James Steller]

Most would probably say “yes”, but I don’t know if that’s true. One of the first hints that Catelyn had of the Red Wedding was that Olyvar and Perwyn and Alesander were absent, and they were all Freys who were too sympathetic to Robb. Olyvar even tried to stay on as Robb’s squire after he married Jeyne Westerling.

We can assume that Stoneheart has retained most of Cat’s memories since she’s only been brought back once and she seems to have a good memory for who was at the Red Wedding. She’d surely remember that Olyvar was absent and had no part in the massacre. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Catelyn would spare Olyvar, but Lady Stoneheart is another story. LS has Catelyn's memories but above all her rage and hunger for vengeance with none of Catelyn's compassion and restraint.

[Curled Finger]

That's tough to call.  As Cat she did witness Olyvar's seeming devotion to Robb and noted his absence at the wedding.  Red flag?  As LSH are all Freys the same?  What would she do if she came across Jeyne Westerling?  I could see that going very badly as LSH appears to be bent on revenge, period.  Her unwavering fury with Brienne is unreasonable.  Brienne was nothing but good to Cat, but that appears to mean nothing to this incarnation who only sees Lannister armor and a writ signed by the king.  She was willing to kill Brienne, who had nothing to do with the Freys or the wedding.  

At this point I would have to say yah, she would kill Olyvar for no other reason than he wasn't there to protect Robb.  

[Craving Peaches]

Yes. I think the whole point is that the Brotherhood without Banners has devolved from the good position they held under Berick and is now focused on vengeance and not justice (I appreciate there is a fine line between the two in some cases). There are no sorts of trials going on to determine whether people really are guilty anymore, all that is needed is a bare sign of association with the Freys or Lannisters. Many have been hung just based on wearing their sigil. Guilt by association. Merret Frey may have been aware of the Red Wedding, but he was hardly the worst perpetrator, all he did was drink. He was not able to say much at all in his defence. Is he being killed for not being able to stop it?

[James Steller]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. I think the whole point is that the Brotherhood without Banners has devolved from the good position they held under Berick and is now focused on vengeance and not justice (I appreciate there is a fine line between the two in some cases). There are no sorts of trials going on to determine whether people really are guilty anymore, all that is needed is a bare sign of association with the Freys or Lannisters. Many have been hung just based on wearing their sigil. Guilt by association. Merret Frey may have been aware of the Red Wedding, but he was hardly the worst perpetrator, all he did was drink. He was not able to say much at all in his defence. Is he being killed for not being able to stop it?

To be fair, Merrett was an active participant in the massacre. Whether he personally killed anyone or not, his actions were consciously done in the name of helping his relatives slaughter guests beneath their roof. Walder didn’t kill anyone by his own hand, and he didn’t do much of the planning either, all he did was play host for a few hours. I doubt anyone would say Walder was innocent.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Walder didn’t kill anyone by his own hand, and he didn’t do much of the planning either, all he did was play host for a few hours. I doubt anyone would say Walder was innocent.

Walder authorised the whole operation though. Without him no one dies. Merret could have outright refused to do anything and almost nothing changes. Merrett also had no role in the planning, he was just told to drink and did so. Now I am not trying to say that he is completely innocent and should just be let off the hook but there is no attempt to even discern what he did beyond being a Frey who was present there. Everyone is given the exact same punishment despite differing levels of culpability and I don't think that's just, and I doubt Berick would have found it just either.

[StarkTullies]

I think Lady Stoneheart might be so far gone that she would murder any Frey or Lannister, but I'm not certain.  I don't think she's as bad as people think.  Stoneheart actually is one of the most overhyped characters in the story, seeing as how she only appears in a couple pages at the end of Merrett's chapter, and a couple more pages in Brienne's final written chapter.  That's it: we really don't much about her so far except the hype.

However, why have the farce of the trial for Merrett if she didn't have some sense of fairness?  This is the woman who, when living, insisted on a fair trial for the man whom she believed hired an assassin to kill her son, and then she let him go when he was "found innocent" by trial-by-combat.  Merrett was guilty.  She gave Brienne a chance to explain herself, despite obviously serving the Lannisters.  She specifically called out Perwyn and Olyvar as the "good Freys" in her mind at the Red Wedding.

I think Olyvar has a decent chance surviving an encounter with Stoneheart.

[Raven Princling]

A tough and interesting question. The answer can vary, because Stoneheart has not appeared that often in the books (although all her appearances have been epic). I am more inclined to believe that she would hang him just because he is a Frey. It would certainly suit the theme of her arc about vengeance simply continuing the violence. 

But there is always the chance that Stoneheart has Cat's memories before the wedding and Olyvar could get a similar role to Brienne in the chance he gets trapped in her clutches. 

[chrisdaw]

Stoneheart would hang him, that's probably why he exists, I can't think of any character it could turn (Harwin? Doesn't seem so important) so it's probably for the reader to understand what Stoneheart is. And she/it would hang Elmar, and that'll be for Arya's benefit.

[Curled Finger]

I think we've seen enough of this Lady Stoneheart to extrapolate that she is not Catelyn Stark.  What has not been mentioned is that while she has only been revived once she was dead much longer than Beric ever was, 3 days I believe.  Long enough for Thoros to refuse to give her the kiss.  Thoros himself is not happy with LSH nor her brand of justice.  I suspect he only sticks around because he's afraid what the revenant will do.  This faction of the BwB is not at all what it was intended to be though I imagine the culling of Freys helps the cause in some way.  This is not the BwB despite a few of the members we saw with Beric in attendance.  

Beric himself explained that he retained a sense of purpose but lost memories.   "She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye.   AFFC Brienne VIII  This is all we know LSH wants or knows.  She twirls a crown and relies on someone else to speak for her.  I don't see Cat in that at all.  

[Alester Florent]

I think she'd hang Olyvar for abandoning Robb in the first place, and for not turning on the Freys after the RW. At this point the most tenuous of reasons is sufficient for her to hang someone and she's impervious to reason or explanation. What did Brienne do wrong? Nothing. And Pod and Hyle are condemned just for association with her.

The state she's in, I can imagine her hanging her own brother for "failing to protect Robb" or the like.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think she'd hang Olyvar. We see both with Merrett and Brienne that she allows her vitcims to explain themselves, and only sentences them to death with actual proof.

Merrett claims to Lem that he hadn't been involved with the Red Wedding:

"She don't speak," said the big man in the yellow cloak. "You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers." He turned to the dead woman and said, "What do you say, m'lady? Was he part of it?"

Lady Catelyn's eyes never left him. She nodded.

Which clearly suggests that if Catelyn had not witnessed Merrett taking part in the plot, he may have been spared. And in fact, we have not seen the BwB targeting anyone who had not been involved with the massacre.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think we've seen enough of this Lady Stoneheart to extrapolate that she is not Catelyn Stark. 

But of course she is. Shes just as much Catelyn Stark as she is Catelyn Tully. People change their names all the time 

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This faction of the BwB is not at all what it was intended to be

It was intended to defeat Gregors army and arrest Tywin. After day one did they ever try to do any of this again? 

The fact that they referred to the late Robert as king and Arya as the Hands daughter shows their removal from reality and whatever political message or unity they wanted to get across. LSH fixed that.

 

To the OP. No. Of course not, that was her son's squire. In fact she notes during the RW that he's not there and felt uncertain because she knows he's loyal

[Curled Finger]

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But of course she is. Shes just as much Catelyn Stark as she is Catelyn Tully. People change their names all the time 

It was intended to defeat Gregors army and arrest Tywin. After day one did they ever try to do any of this again? 

The fact that they referred to the late Robert as king and Arya as the Hands daughter shows their removal from reality and whatever political message or unity they wanted to get across. LSH fixed that.

 

To the OP. No. Of course not, that was her son's squire. In fact she notes during the RW that he's not there and felt uncertain because she knows he's loyal

I suppose we'll see if another book ever gets here.  I'm not holding anything Catelyn did with hope for anything LSH will do.  Taking all my cues from Thoros on this one.  

[Hugorfonics]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I suppose we'll see if another book ever gets here.  I'm not holding anything Catelyn did with hope for anything LSH will do.  Taking all my cues from Thoros on this one.  

That drunk? Lol.

Like in terms of a literary character with an arc and a plotline, I don't see GRRM grabbing a fresh page off the looseleaf, Cats continuing her journey.

That lady could at times be super scary and often acted as she willed despite the political explosions that were guaranteed to happen.

(This was all kinda in the rough draft too, right? I mean this is Cats path. GRRM, if Tuff Voyaging can be analyzed, is super into cats and the whole bossy scary cuddly mystic presence they have. I mean at the end of the day, 100%, ask the Freys, LSH is team goodguy)

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

That drunk? Lol.

Like in terms of a literary character with an arc and a plotline, I don't see GRRM grabbing a fresh page off the looseleaf, Cats continuing her journey.

That lady could at times be super scary and often acted as she willed despite the political explosions that were guaranteed to happen.

(This was all kinda in the rough draft too, right? I mean this is Cats path. GRRM, if Tuff Voyaging can be analyzed, is super into cats and the whole bossy scary cuddly mystic presence they have. I mean at the end of the day, 100%, ask the Freys, LSH is team goodguy)

I will stay drunk with Thoros if you promise to get off the Shade of the Evening.  My Dude, I never liked Catelyn in the first place, though I get where she was trying to be a good guy.  LSH ain't a good guy.  Dead way too long, reanimated by a multiple dead & resurrected dead guy.   This can't be good even under good conditions it can't be good.  My boy, the drunk, wouldn't go there.  LSH will end up doing some good, but not because that is her intention but because her author is a hippy.  

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

I will stay drunk with Thoros if you promise to get off the Shade of the Evening.  

Lmao, that's great.

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

My Dude, I never liked Catelyn in the first place, though I get where she was trying to be a good guy.  

Yea me neither lol, super mean to Jon and then just complained about the war her son was winning. (But her chapters were some of the best)

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

LSH ain't a good guy.

She's my guy tho!

Idk, out of all asoiaf, I really really remember vividly reading Freys words of Lady Stark. That to me, after seeing Jon as LC! Tyrion as a kinslayer! Sansa finding out LF did everything! Then finding out Cat still walks this world. Fuck, 100% coolest part of asoiaf. 

This poor lady! Can't even rip. Oh and she ain't complaining, those Frey bastards, who I'm all to happy see squirm, with all Arya's boys to boot! Nah, that's, that's, good people lol.

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Dead way too long, reanimated by a multiple dead & resurrected dead guy.   This can't be good even under good conditions it can't be good.  My boy, the drunk, wouldn't go there. 

Yea I mean, she's not Galahad lol. She's holding onto Robbs crown right now, so I expect someone to come and claim it. I think she'd be cool with like seeing her kids back, especially as "young adults" (what are we talking, 13?) with a path already set for them. 

Idk, also a big reason is I'm pretty sure Jon's croaked so while the timer on the clock is hopefully in Jon's favor, (give or take a Shireen) you know that's also a protagonist who's ok in my book. I don't want him zombified either. I mean I do, but like Beric not like Small Paul.

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

LSH will end up doing some good, but not because that is her intention but because her author is a hippy.  

Im not entirely convinced he is. I mean, he wears glasses and has a beard which is like 95% of being a hippy...

[Curled Finger]

@HugorfonicsI gotta hand it to you, I don't know where you took debate, but you do know how to make me laugh through an argument.  I have learned to enjoy Catelyn far more over the years than I did initially and it wasn't even over Jon, though I do get the turn off with the whole ugly wicked step mother thing.  I was good to my step kids, but that is neither here nor there.  I didn't dig her leaving the little ones, that's what I didn't understand, then you have to remember a man is writing this and yah.  This mother of the year comes off like a man wrote her so when I can leave it there I'm good with her.  And her chapters really are some of the very best, no lie.  

Maybe that's where my hard line on LSH stems from.  He does not get what being a mother is, so this wraith of a woman who died in horrific grief, trauma, violence...who lay dead in the river for 3 days...nope.  Not going to be right.  A person who survived it would not be right.  Have I just yanked myself from fantasy?  Perhaps it is all that King coming to the surface.  She's not a fantasy zombie I reckon, but more of some of that wonderful horror Martin writes so well.  

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@HugorfonicsI gotta hand it to you, I don't know where you took debate, but you do know how to make me laugh through an argument. 

Nah I'm just funny but ty. Keep it uplifting. Although you made me laugh first so I get more inclined to be humorous. (Although tbh so much is probably recycled, like give or take a Shireen, mathematically I musta said that before)

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I have learned to enjoy Catelyn far more over the years than I did initially and it wasn't even over Jon, though I do get the turn off with the whole ugly wicked step mother thing.  I was good to my step kids, but that is neither here nor there.  I didn't dig her leaving the little ones, that's what I didn't understand, then you have to remember a man is writing this and yah.  This mother of the year comes off like a man wrote her so when I can leave it there I'm good with her.  And her chapters really are some of the very best, no lie.  

I always shamed Ned for leaving Bran but excused Cat. Bran himself was pissed at both, which like, duh. 

Idk, to me Ned was like going to the office but Cat just stopped a knife with her palm from slaughtering her sleeping baby. Like, it's hammer time. Cersei wishes she was a warlord, Cat does too. Hoster trained her to be after all, so for her to sit defenseless, sending men to do her bidding which living with Ned for X years taught her is soft, is just not in the cards. That's why I guess I don't blame her, she left Bran because that's how she thought to keep him safe, by defeating his enemies. Like what's she supposed to do, sit around and next time use her other hand?

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Maybe that's where my hard line on LSH stems from.  He does not get what being a mother is, so this wraith of a woman who died in horrific grief, trauma, violence...who lay dead in the river for 3 days...nope.  Not going to be right.  A person who survived it would not be right.  Have I just yanked myself from fantasy?  Perhaps it is all that King coming to the surface.  She's not a fantasy zombie I reckon, but more of some of that wonderful horror Martin writes so well.  

I mean I totally agree she's not right, the magical three days aside, last time we saw her she was having a nervous breakdown. Since awakening she's constantly draped in this weird funky religion and has no shortage of punching bag in sight. So, bad stuff.

I got faith in her though. After all there's nothing she's done that puts me in what the fuck department like say Sandor or Theon, two of my favorite heroes. Like I agree GRRM likes his scary stuff but, even that vampire in the one in 1840s south, had complexity with the monsters. The second main character himself was a vampire who was sick and scary to his enemies but looked out for the goodies, like Stoneheart running an orphanage 

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean I totally agree she's not right, the magical three days aside, last time we saw her she was having a nervous breakdown. Since awakening she's constantly draped in this weird funky religion and has no shortage of punching bag in sight. So, bad stuff.

I got faith in her though. After all there's nothing she's done that puts me in what the fuck department like say Sandor or Theon, two of my favorite heroes. Like I agree GRRM likes his scary stuff but, even that vampire in the one in 1840s south, had complexity with the monsters. The second main character himself was a vampire who was sick and scary to his enemies but looked out for the goodies, like Stoneheart running an orphanage 

I do wonder which direction her story will go and who she will run into, like Olyvar Frey.  We've got her men wearing The Hound's helm and seeming bewitched doing all sorts of evil in his name, what's up with that?  This is not my good time Thoros I know and love.  Is she really running an orphanage?  Has she talked with Gendry?  Hasn't Gendry told her Brienne tried to save them?  Told them she was asking about Sansa?  Either LSH doesn't listen or doesn't know is all I got here.  By the same token Thoros seems sort of hopeless? Like he doesn't want to really be with LSH yet there he is.  He's not out front leading cheers anymore.  He says something about remembering justice the implication being this isn't justice?  What did you get from the line?