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Was there a reason given for why Joffrey hates Renly so much?


James Steller
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When Renly is first introduced, he makes a jape about Ser Ilyn and Joffrey gives him a look of pure loathing. And that was before the Micah incident and before Renly laughed at Joffrey’s humiliation. What could possibly have happened between them that made Joffrey hate him so much? And why would Joffrey be so disgusted with a joke about Ilyn?

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I was literally just reading that chapter about 15 minutes ago and was wondering the same thing. I'm wondering if his rumored sexuality had anything to do with it, tied to his willingness to mock or laugh at Joffrey to his face.

Edited by Ser Arthurs Dawn
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Judging their dynamic.

Renly never had a problem with laughing at Joffrey's face, which giving how Joffrey or Cersei are they would never take well, and Renly was one of the few people the Lannisters couldn't really touch while Robert was King. Renly was also transparently trying to get rid of Cersei and fuelling her paranoia, no doubt Joffrey heard a thing or two about him while being near his mother.

 

Add those two things and it's easy to see why.

Edited by frenin
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Joffrey is a spoiled little prick who can't stand to be mocked, disciplined or criticised. His predominant character traits are arrogance and cruelty, and he has also adopted almost all his mother's prejudices.

From what we see of Renly, he doesn't take much of Joff's shit. Tyrion doesn't either and I can't imagine Stannis did. Joff hates all three of them, as does Cersei.

He doesn't seem to have much affection for other family members either. He just about tolerates Tywin. He seems almost completely indifferent to his other "uncle", Jaime, and Tommen and Myrcella too. 

The surprise isn't that he hated Renly, it's that he didn't hate Robert.

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51 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The heart of the matter is that Renly takes nothing seriously

He did seem to take Robert's death and the threat to his own life rather seriously, though.

Quote

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

Clearly his usual carefree attitude is absent here.

Spoiler

If I were to speculate, I would think his rather flippant attitude could perhaps be a sort of way to cope given the trauma he must have gone through being subject to the Siege of Storm's End at a young age. Don't worry and just enjoy it while it lasts - because you don't know when it will be gone kind of thing.

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Cersei probably 'brainwashed' Joffrey from a young age that 'everyone who isn't us is an enemy' (where us=Lannister family and Robert). He probably hated Stannis just as much.

Besides, Renly was one of the few people who could get away with mocking Joffrey and he probably did it often (because he didn't give a shit about Joffrey's sensibilities) and Joffrey grew more and more agitated each time it happened and slowly grew to hate him.

 

I think this shows how thoroughly prideful and blind Cersei was. Renly was the younger brother of Robert, the ruler of the Stormlands, and someone who grew up mostly isolated from his brothers (thanks to Robert) and very different from them.

He is someone who seemingly (being the youngest brother) poses no threat to her children's inheritance but could prove to be a great help defending it. She should have tried to befriend him instead of antagonizing him (although the Tyrell friendly Renly probably also played his part in it) during the 3 years he spent in KL. 

She literally made enemies of every major noble in KL - Stannis, Robert, Renly, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark - believing that the Lannisters alone can dominate the Seven Kingdoms. It's no surprise that everyone turned against the Lannisters once Robert was dead and Stark - whose daughter was betrothed to Joffrey, who should have been a steadfast ally if Cersei wasn't a complete idiot - arrested.

Edited by csuszka1948
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19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

He did seem to take Robert's death and the threat to his own life rather seriously, though.

Clearly his usual carefree attitude is absent here.

  Reveal hidden contents

If I were to speculate, I would think his rather flippant attitude could perhaps be a sort of way to cope given the trauma he must have gone through being subject to the Siege of Storm's End at a young age. Don't worry and just enjoy it while it lasts - because you don't know when it will be gone kind of thing.

Renly is a 'carefree and careless soul' according to GRRM himself. I have to admit that the second trait (carelessness) isn't extensively shown in the books - yes, his tactics at the battle of Storm's End is careless, but it doesn't matter much since he would win anyway (although it could result in Loras's death). The military strategy he employs also seems to be deliberately planned (slowly march from castle to castle gaining support and maintaining moral while the Lannisters and Starks fight it out) and ruthless (starving the capital), not careless (although it is possible the Tyrells were behind the idea and Renly just followed).

I really think a POV from Renly, Garlan or Loras would have been great in AGOT and the beginning of ACOK, because it is difficult to correctly judge Renly without it. Although perhaps that was GRRM's intention - Renly is the 'king of summer', a (probably decent) ruler for peacetime, and his death signifies the return of magic and winter to the story.

Edited by csuszka1948
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13 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I was literally just reading that chapter about 15 minutes ago and was wondering the same thing. I'm wondering if his rumored sexuality had anything to do with it, tied to his willingness to mock or laugh at Joffrey to his face.

I 100% think it's cuz of his rumored sexuality: he probably heard Robert or Cersei say something flippantly and now hates Renly because he hates gay people. And also Renly is kind of...boisterous, and Joffrey hates fun.

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18 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I 100% think it's cuz of his rumored sexuality: he probably heard Robert or Cersei say something flippantly and now hates Renly because he hates gay people. And also Renly is kind of...boisterous, and Joffrey hates fun.

Homophobia in the books is not really apparent, at least nothing like in the show or RL. And considering absent Abrahamic monotheistic religions taking hold in this world homophobia isn’t really a thing here either…wasn’t in most pre-Christian/Islamic western cultures, wasn’t in most eastern cultures, just another gift from monotheism to the world…it shouldn’t be so I doubt that was a major factor, or at least not a cause. Joff might have had a go though, he would certainly be reaching for any stone to hand, but I doubt it had much to do with the origins of the hatred. 

More I think there were just very few people powerful enough to treat Joff like the sadistic little shit that he was, and of those few Renly would have been the most mocking and DGAF about it. That would have freaked Joff out, he’s only comfortable around people he can make fearful of him or obey him. 

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One reason could simply be that Sansa has directed a question to Joffrey - why will Ilyn not speak to her? - but Renly buts in with the clever comment that Ilyn has not been feeling talkative these 14 years. I think Renly simply not deferring to precedence and allowing Joffrey to take centre stage with Sansa annoys him. He should have let Joffrey answer, Joffrey thinks. He probably didn't even like Sansa playing the game of guessing who Barristan and Renly were, and giving them attention (also getting the attention herself).

Also, as several have suggested above, he may already hate Renly because it does seem from the later scene after Arya beats him, that Renly doesn't bother humouring him at all. And perhaps if Renly often speaks in an oblique, witty or ironic way, he hates him for that, because, being dumb, it would be hard for him to follow or join in or feel he could control the conversation.

Edited by Castellan
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Joffrey's biggest influence is his mother. So, I'd say his attitude comes directly from Cersei's influence. 

On top of that, I agree Renly was one of the few who could get away with not hiding his disdain for Joffrey. Which would send both Joffrey and Cersei into a fit.

One of my fav scenes is after Arya throws Joffrey's sword into the river, with Renly's following commentary and guffaw.

Eddard 3 GOT 

When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”

Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.’

If all you ever saw of Joffrey and Renly was this. It explains everything. 

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