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Help Needed! Sandor Clegane and Arya Stark's relationship & Masculinity


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Hello! I am currently in the process of writing my undergraduate thesis, which is focused on what the Lone Wolf and Cub trope tells us about masculinity. (The trope is basically a warrior and a vulnerable youngster who travel together.)
 
One of my chapters is centred around The Hound and Arya (the other two being Joel and Ellie from TLOU, and Logan and Laura from Logan) and I thought it might be helpful to consult other fans by opening up a discussion and engaging in thoughtful discourse about how Sandor and his relationship with Arya (as well as Sansa and Joffrey) explores the theme of masculinity. 
 
(I’m focusing primarily on the books but will also likely explore the TV show representation, comparing the two and questioning why those changes were made and how the show explores masculinity in the context of Sandor and Arya.)
 
Obviously, it’s an academic research-based essay so I’ll have to ground it in wider critical theory and reading but I’m basically just looking for a space to discuss the relationship in an analytical and critical way in the context of masculinity and possibly have my eyes opened to things I never noticed.
 
I appreciate any help you can offer! Thank you! 
 
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3 minutes ago, princess elia martell said:
Hello! I am currently in the process of writing my undergraduate thesis, which is focused on what the Lone Wolf and Cub trope tells us about masculinity. (The trope is basically a warrior and a vulnerable youngster who travel together.)
 
One of my chapters is centred around The Hound and Arya (the other two being Joel and Ellie from TLOU, and Logan and Laura from Logan) and I thought it might be helpful to consult other fans by opening up a discussion and engaging in thoughtful discourse about how Sandor and his relationship with Arya (as well as Sansa and Joffrey) explores the theme of masculinity. 
 
(I’m focusing primarily on the books but will also likely explore the TV show representation, comparing the two and questioning why those changes were made and how the show explores masculinity in the context of Sandor and Arya.)
 
Obviously, it’s an academic research-based essay so I’ll have to ground it in wider critical theory and reading but I’m basically just looking for a space to discuss the relationship in an analytical and critical way in the context of masculinity and possibly have my eyes opened to things I never noticed.
 
I appreciate any help you can offer! Thank you! 
 

That's an interesting topic.

If you're comparing the book and show version, there are startling differences: one is that on GoT, Sandor is not shown crying and having a breakdown when he gets burned during the fight with Beric and when he confesses to killing Mycah. Instead, the show has him laughing. And that's the third time GoT scrapped Sandor's emotional breakdowns from the books - they didn't have him tell his story to Sansa in season 1, or have a major violent PTSD attack after leaving the battle of Blackwater, when he also cries after threatening Sansa. His final breakdown when he was trying to make Arya kill him was also less emotional and didn't come after the distressing news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (which made him assume she had been raped after he had failed to save her from KL, which in the book he only has himselfto blame for, for freaking out and threatening Sansa's life before she could even give an answer to his offee) and Joffrey's death. 

Instead, GoT Sandor was made to be initially more stoic, and then more comedic and "badass" and far less vulnerable, angry and unstable.  He cries multiple times in the book but not in the show. And him asking Arya to kill him doesn't happen after any kind of emotional moment, or  a fight with his brother's men - instead, he gets his wound fighting Brienne (just so we get a cool fight) and aside from his physical pain, he is only upset that he lost to a woman?

It's possible that some of that is due to the age up/casting and that the showrunners thought it would be embarrassing for a 40 something man to be so unstable as opposed to one in his late 20s, but it's really in line with how Benioff and Weiss present masculinity, and hoe they see strength in borh men and women (increased badassery, willingness to fight and obsession with revenge is the only acceptable response to trauma, and the only way to be strong).

Another change is in Arya, who is far less angry and more forgiving and accepting of Sandor on the show. GoT Sandor and Arya feel a lot more buddy buddy, while they never really reach that stage in ASOS. GoT also has Sandor act as Arya's mentor and teaching her to be more ruthless, and cynical while book Arya doesn't need that as she's already become vety ruthless in Harrenhal and angry, depressed and devoid of hope after the Red Wedding. Sansa was the one Sandor tried to teach to he more cynical, but she challenged him and made him be less cynical and start getting back some of his old, early childhood idealism (pre-burning, pre-Gregor getting knighted). Arya is instead a mirror where Sandor sees a child just as angry, cynical and violent in response to her trauma as he became due to his trauma, and this mirror image is refusing to forgive him. Book Arya only reluctantly and subconsciously starts warming up to Sandor, but that disturbs her - she is startled when she takes him off her kill list. She doesn't want to be forgiving or see the shades of grey. She even pushes thoughts of him away, so we just get vague skewed memories when sje is in Braavos.

The book relationship they have is more strained and emotionally complex than in the show.

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Welcome princess, that's sure a way to start a conversation.  Best to keep show and books conversations separate here though.  So let's discuss the book relationship between Arya and The Hound and/or Sansa and Joffrey.  I am curious as to how masculinity plays into your thinking with regard to Joffrey.  Is it how the Kingsguard react to commands and carry out their duties?  I'm sorry, I just don't see masculinity in Joffrey, just a pathetic spoiled brat really.  Maybe masculinity is better explored in the relationship of The Hound and Sansa?  

Sandor Clegane is a hard man.   I consider him to be quite macho, but I know what I consider to be masculine.  I think the question is what you consider to be masculine.  His abilities to protect Sansa and Arya and want to ring most true in my estimation.  In the world Martin has built that is a rare and beautiful quality despite the package.

Does that help at all? 

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If Joffrey's in scope it might be interesting to contrast Arya and Joffrey and their respective relationships with the Hound.  I'd also look at how and why Martin emasculates and defeminizes his characters. Both the Hound and Arya experience this.  At the crux when Sandor is pleading for the gift of mercy Arya doesn't run him through with her sword even though Sandor had been a long standing member of her kill list. What's going on there?

I dunno. I think it's an interesting topic, but you're going to have to watch out for rabbit holes. Good luck with it!

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This reread has good articles and analyses of book Sandor and you might find them interesting.

Book Arya and Sandor's trek across the Riverlands is one of the best parts of both their arcs in my view.  It was well written and showed the deep emotions of both characters as they went through their travels and traumas.   The show turned this into a buddy story with Sandor being Arya's goofy sidekick who had hilarious lines like "Fuck King Joffery!" and "Chicken."  I found it gross and stupid.

Edited by LongRider
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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

but it's really in line with how Benioff and Weiss present masculinity, and hoe they see strength in borh men and women (increased badassery, willingness to fight and obsession with revenge is the only acceptable response to trauma, and the only way to be strong).

Indeed. Reading your post brought back all those horrible memories of the abomination. :ack:
Great post btw. 

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There is a lot here, and this is just the beginning of my thoughts, but there is a lot to be said about Arya's understanding of how to blend her masculinity with her feminity when she engages with Sandor. Because the world of ASOIAF has very sex-based gender roles, Arya's position as a girl who identifies more with activities that are sanctioned for boys puts her in a weird spot, and so it may be that she is able to better identify with the men around her, like her father and Jon and Sandor. And because of Sandor's seeming masculinity, as one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros, Arya no doubtedy associates killling with him and with his masculinity and with what makes him terrible. Arya also has the picture of Sansa's supposed feminity to contend with, and Sandor has the picture of his brother's incredibly heightened masculinity. And I use the terms "masculinity" and "feminity" to refer to associated traits of, among other things, violence, dominance, power, war, stoicism vs. caretaking, childbearing, emotion. Sandor will never be more masculine than his brother, and Arya will never be more feminine than her sister, but Sandor is still perceived as incredibly masculine and that's probably hard for him when there is a more caring and, not necessarily feminine, but at the very least empathetic side to him, one that cares for Sansa. This sibling comparison is vitally important: Sansa is the future lady of Winterfell and Arya hates her for it, for her femininity. Sandor hates his brother for his abuse, driven, I would argue, by Gregor's masculinity, by his aggression and the societal fostering of it. Sandor hates knighthood and its concept, probably because someone so dishonorable as Gregor holds the title: it loses all meaning. But he also clings to his masculinity: when he breaks down remembering his abuse, he tells Sansa to keep it a secret or he will kill her. His vulnerability is a weakness, and he is a true man who experiences no weakness.

But Sandor is also shown to value mercy, arguably feminine, and he tries to impart this value to Arya, first with his mercy-killing of Marq after the Red Wedding, then with Polliver at the inn, then with himself on the road to the Saltpans. Though she doesn't go through with giving him mercy. Sandor uses his saving of Sansa during the riots as a way to show that he isn't the monster Arya thinks he is, the negative mascunlinity that pervades Westeros, despite all his killing (of Mycah, for her, most of all). That there is good in him, an empathetic man who does want to protect the weak, a man who is so broken by the negative masculinity around him that he clings to the times where he expresses positive masculinity as proof to himself that he isn't irredeemable. That maybe there is value outside of murder. But also that the path she now charts, as a trained swordswoman willing to kill, is within her grasp, even as a woman; she can roam the countryside with the fucking Hound and kill people just like him. And even though she hates him for his killing, some part of her takes him off her list after being with him and seeing his more feminine side.

There's also the subservient "dog" aspect to the masculinity. Dogs are man's best friend, but Joffrey is a terrible image of masculinity and not a very good friend. Jaime also struggles with this: protecting the man-on-top lessens your masculinity and dominance. And the person he protects, Joffrey, is abusive and negatively masculine towards Sansa, the little bird, who he wants to protect because of his positive masculinity, to whom he opens up to about his abuse, but also threatens if she were to expose him as weaker than Gregor; he also thinks people who fight with fire (his brother) are cowards, and seems to adopt his position as a dog with some level of acceptance. So Sandor thinks that his masculinity is sound, but also clings to his moments of kindness as his redemptive actions. 

Arya, for her part, rejects the femininity she has been assigned and does not try to mold into it, basically at all. Whereas Sandor clings to the idea that he is the true man, not a knight, not a coward, a brave dog who protects the innocent Sansa despite all his killing, Arya doesn't have the same "I am still a woman" mantra; she is comfortable being more masculine unabashadly. Maybe masculinity is safer. 

I don't know if any of that helps, and it was kind of rambly, but it was kinda nice to work through my own thoughts about Sandor. 

Edited by GZ Bloodraven
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A few thoughts:

Sandor has a closer connection with Sansa than with Arya.  I think he sees something of his younger self in her: naive and vulnerable.  He constantly shocks her and scares her.  I think the story of his burning was simply intended to shock her, but somehow became more.

He talks very tough, rough, and gruff.  I am not sure how much of that is front, and how much is real, but I suspect he's not as tough as he pretends to be.

He drinks a lot (we almost never see him sober), but he seems to have no drinking partners.  Or partners of any kind.  I don't think we have ever seen him voluntarily interact with anyone other than Sansa, Arya, and Joffrey, and I think he holds Joffrey in contempt.  No friends or relationships of any kind.

He seems to have a nihilistic point of view.  "You're alone in this world, so you'd better toughen up."  "Don't expect rescue, because it's not coming."

I have a feeling he may be more insecure than he acts.

Another example of the trope is Brienne and Podrick. Of course, it's the reverse, because the warrior is a woman who is acting in a man's role.  It may be a bit too far afield, but might make for an interesting compare and contrast.

 

 

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Thank you all for your replies, there's definitely food for thought here! I'm not entirely sure what the replying etiquette here is as it's my first time posting here but I'll do my best.

 

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Another change is in Arya, who is far less angry and more forgiving and accepting of Sandor on the show. GoT Sandor and Arya feel a lot more buddy buddy, while they never really reach that stage in ASOS. GoT also has Sandor act as Arya's mentor and teaching her to be more ruthless, and cynical while book Arya doesn't need that as she's already become vety ruthless in Harrenhal and angry, depressed and devoid of hope after the Red Wedding. Sansa was the one Sandor tried to teach to he more cynical, but she challenged him and made him be less cynical and start getting back some of his old, early childhood idealism (pre-burning, pre-Gregor getting knighted). Arya is instead a mirror where Sandor sees a child just as angry, cynical and violent in response to her trauma as he became due to his trauma, and this mirror image is refusing to forgive him. Book Arya only reluctantly and subconsciously starts warming up to Sandor, but that disturbs her - she is startled when she takes him off her kill list. She doesn't want to be forgiving or see the shades of grey. She even pushes thoughts of him away, so we just get vague skewed memories when sje is in Braavos.

The book relationship they have is more strained and emotionally complex than in the show.

Thank you Annara Snow for your comments about the show vs books. In my notes about the two, I've commented on similar things that you mentioned so that gives me confidence. I certainly agree their relationship is much more friendly in the show than it ever reaches in the books, one of my points being that Arya never seems to outwardly relent in her hatred for Sandor in the books whereas, by season 8 in the show, the two of them are basically friends. I've got about 3,000 words allocated for the Sandor/Arya chapter so I'll probably keep my focus on the books. 

My thesis is somewhat drama-focused so my mention of the show will touch on adaptation and performativity; does the version of the relationship presented in the show and the associated masculinity just work 'better' for screen than the book counterpart? So your comment about RMC's age and the show runners is very helpful.

 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I am curious as to how masculinity plays into your thinking with regard to Joffrey.  Is it how the Kingsguard react to commands and carry out their duties?  I'm sorry, I just don't see masculinity in Joffrey, just a pathetic spoiled brat really. 

I think the question is what you consider to be masculine.  His abilities to protect Sansa and Arya and want to ring most true in my estimation.  In the world Martin has built that is a rare and beautiful quality despite the package.

Thank you, Curled Finger, for the welcome! With regards to Joffrey, I more so mentioned him in relation to the Hound and how he plays into a facet of Sandor's masculinity. By this I'm referring to his role as a 'father figure' to Joffrey which kind of precedes the role of protector he takes for Sansa and Arya later. Obviously in this role for Joffrey, Sandor's position as father figure is conflated with his position as a killer, stressing the aggressive aspects of his masculinity. 

Within the essay, I will be exploring masculinity as a concept and examining the different manifestations of it, so certainly his hyper masculinity is one facet clear in Sandor, but so is, as you say, his ability (and desire) to protect Arya and Sansa.

4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

If Joffrey's in scope it might be interesting to contrast Arya and Joffrey and their respective relationships with the Hound.  I'd also look at how and why Martin emasculates and defeminizes his characters. Both the Hound and Arya experience this. 

You raise some interesting points, Aejohn, particularly to do with emasculation and defeminisation - I will certainly look into exploring this further. As mentioned above, I also see mileage in examining Sandor and Joffrey's relationship, as I think Joff was the first 'cub' Sandor had in his care, although this cub also happened to be his master which turns the dynamic on its head and definitely messes with ideas of masculinity and power in their dynamic. 

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

This reread has good articles and analyses of book Sandor and you might find them interesting.

Book Arya and Sandor's trek across the Riverlands is one of the best parts of both their arcs in my view.  It was well written and showed the deep emotions of both characters as they went through their travels and traumas.   The show turned this into a buddy story with Sandor being Arya's goofy sidekick who had hilarious lines like "Fuck King Joffery!" and "Chicken."  I found it gross and stupid.

I entirely agree, LongRider. I reread the ASOS chapter and then rewatched the show scenes and I'm almost horrified at the difference between the two. It's like they're not even supposed to be the same characters, but I digress. I've been reading the reread analyses the last few nights and have seen some interesting points - it's actually what prompted me to post here for myself! 

 

36 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

There is a lot here, and this is just the beginning of my thoughts, but there is a lot to be said about Arya's understanding of how to blend her masculinity with her feminity when she engages with Sandor. Because the world of ASOIAF has very sex-based gender roles, Arya's position as a girl who identifies more with activities that are sanctioned for boys puts her in a weird spot, and so it may be that she is able to better identify with the men around her, like her father and Jon and Sandor. And because of Sandor's seeming masculinity, as one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros, Arya no doubtedy associates killling with him and with his masculinity and with what makes him terrible.

I don't know if any of that helps, and it was kind of rambly, but it was kinda nice to work through my own thoughts about Sandor. 

Wow, GZ Bloodraven, what incredible insight, thank you! Part of the gender theory surrounding masculinity is that it cannot exist without femininity as its counterpart so it's really helpful that you've situated your ideas around that. I definitely did not consider the parallels between the sibling relationships but that is extremely interesting. 

I like the idea of mercy that you raise. In relation to the Lone Wolf and Cub trope, it's a lesson that Sandor imparts on Arya. In my notes, I'd mentioned that his teachings of how to kill a man serve to reinforce his role as a killer and his role as a mentor in Arya's journey to becoming a killer, but I like the idea of suggesting that this is evidence of the value of mercy in him and it is actually indicative of the 'good' masculinity in him.

Your comments about Joffrey are also helpful and insightful, thank you! 

22 minutes ago, Nevets said:

A few thoughts:

Sandor has a closer connection with Sansa than with Arya.  I think he sees something of his younger self in her: naive and vulnerable.  He constantly shocks her and scares her. 

Another example of the trope is Brienne and Podrick. Of course, it's the reverse, because the warrior is a woman who is acting in a man's role.  It may be a bit too far afield, but might make for an interesting compare and contrast.

 

 

Thank you Nevets, I may mention Brienne and Podrick if my word count permits it, but I might not have that luxury. I agree Sandor has a closer connection with Sansa, but in the context of the trope I am examining, Sandor and Arya fit the bill better. Even so, I certainly think his relationship with Sansa is important and will be exploring it in my essay to contextualise his behaviour. 

Thank you all for your help and insights, I'm beyond grateful to have a space to discuss this (both for academic purposes but also because I enjoy discussing my favourite character!)

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5 minutes ago, princess elia martell said:

I like the idea of mercy that you raise. In relation to the Lone Wolf and Cub trope, it's a lesson that Sandor imparts on Arya. In my notes, I'd mentioned that his teachings of how to kill a man serve to reinforce his role as a killer and his role as a mentor in Arya's journey to becoming a killer, but I like the idea of suggesting that this is evidence of the value of mercy in him and it is actually indicative of the 'good' masculinity in him.

This is exactly the dichotomy that all three of the "Lone Wolf" figures you mentioned seemed to wrestle with (especially Sandor and Joel). In many senses, the cubs are with the lone wolves by pure circumstance, and these really "dangerous" men need to grapple with how best to convey that there is room for mercy in the development of the cub's masculinity. That they don't have to throw out all of the parts that are feminine-associated to be masculine. But the Lone Wolves are struggling with the same issue within themselves: this is an incredibly interesting topic and I'm excited for your finished piece!

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57 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

This is exactly the dichotomy that all three of the "Lone Wolf" figures you mentioned seemed to wrestle with (especially Sandor and Joel). In many senses, the cubs are with the lone wolves by pure circumstance, and these really "dangerous" men need to grapple with how best to convey that there is room for mercy in the development of the cub's masculinity. That they don't have to throw out all of the parts that are feminine-associated to be masculine. But the Lone Wolves are struggling with the same issue within themselves: this is an incredibly interesting topic and I'm excited for your finished piece!

Thank you, I'm glad others find it interesting too! 

One point I've made in my essay related to this topic is that where Joel and Logan want to protect their 'cubs' from committing unnecessary violence, Sandor guides Arya in her murder of the squire in the inn. Obviously there are several angles here, because while he is the only one who actively encourages and educates the girl on killing, it is in the context of giving mercy. It's also apparent that he actually appears his most paternal in this moment, which kind of situates his role as a father as being conflated with his role as a killer.

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