Howland netting Arthur

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I like it! And I would much rather Lyanna was being cared for at Starfall, not abandoned in a ruined tower - though to be honest GRRM seems enjoy the tower scenario immensely, and I've no confidence he didn't just go with it.

thanks! me too, and yes, I too think it's more than possible that GRRM had left Lyanna in an abandoned tower and logic at the door. it's in aGoT after all, the same book where the Lady of warden of the North travels half a continent with just one knight; and queen's brother who is also heir to the West , travels with two soldiers thinking it befits his station!  

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Still seems to me that Ned got more than he gave. If baby Jon had started to develop purple eyes, Ned would have to grit his teeth and play the Ashara card, dragging her reputation through the mud all over again, to serve his own family's purposes.

Perhaps. We should see it through Daynes' perspective. at that point; they have no idea what Robert might do. All that they know is that Rhaegar's innocent wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Surely Daynes would be in bigger trouble than Rhaegar's 3-year-old daughter, who's not even in the line of succession, whose biggest crime is being a dragon spawn. Add that Ashara's reputation was already tainted by that time, and she would leave anyway. Considering Barristan knows Ashara had a daughter specifically, I believe there's a massive possibility that Ashara had been back in Kingslanding after the birth, possibly before the Trident, so that courtiers might hear what happened. 

Then there's another possibility, however slim,  that makes Daynes owe Ned even more. If, besides all that's stated above, Arthur is Jon's father, it explains Daynes' attitude toward Ned. There's not much evidence for this one, perhaps only Jon's epiphany moment when he's dealing with an identity crisis until dawn when he sees Sword of the Morning in the south. This could also work well with some small details in the story. For example, we know Ned has often spoken to Jon of Robert as the Demon of the Trident, a God among princes, where he'd killed Rhaegar, which is somewhat insensitive if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon's father. Or the fact that Ned seems genuinely upset for killing Arthur Dayne and speaks highly of him, whose son he is raising, while he hasn't thought of Rhaegar for so long even though he's supposed to be raising his son, naturally thinking of the father and his attitudes and behaviors at times. 

 

 

2 hours ago, AryaRegina said:

I think an important piece to consider when wondering if Ned would kill Arthur dishonourably is Lyanna.
When his little sister, who has been missing for months, is finally found, and is (presumably, as the source is a dream) screaming for him and he's fighting her captors to try and get to her, and his friend is able to incapacitate one of them, do you believe he'd take the moment to let him get free because killing him then would be in bad form? Or is the sound of his sister's screams and the need to get to her more important than his honour in battle?

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
-Eddard X, AGOT
 

I have no particular opinion on Arthur's death, but I do think the books have repeatedly shown that love is a powerful emotion, and can make people to things they otherwise wouldn't

I couldn't agree more, and I don't think we should rule out a dishonorable act on Ned's part at such a moment. however, this is a dream, a fever dream at that, and it doesn't seem to be a clear linear memory. so, it is well possible that Lyanna's memory and Kingsgaurd's memory are blended together in his dream. especially since we know Lyanna used to call him Ned, and she was weak and frightened in her last moments, possibly whispering more than screaming. 

[John Suburbs]

On 4/1/2023 at 1:18 AM, Crona said:

However, another issue I do have is, do you think Ned would kill someone that was distracted or incapacitated? Its hard for me to think Ned would kill someone that was defenseless during a fight. Do I think Howland would kill someone dishonorably? Yes I do think he would, but I am not sure about Ned.  The show had it depicted as Howland stabbing him from the back, so maybe that's correct. 

 

 

It depends on the circumstances. In the heat of battle, when the swords are swinging, Howland nets Arthur's sword arm at the last second so he can't block the cut the Ned is making.

And I know the popular impression, both in-story and among the fandom, is that Ned killed Arthur, but I don't think Ned ever says this. He told Bran that Arthur would have killed him if not for Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean Ned killed Arthur. It could have been Howland all by himself.

[Crona]

22 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

Perhaps. We should see it through Daynes' perspective. at that point; they have no idea what Robert might do. All that they know is that Rhaegar's innocent wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Surely Daynes would be in bigger trouble than Rhaegar's 3-year-old daughter, who's not even in the line of succession, whose biggest crime is being a dragon spawn. Add that Ashara's reputation was already tainted by that time, and she would leave anyway. Considering Barristan knows Ashara had a daughter specifically, I believe there's a massive possibility that Ashara had been back in Kingslanding after the birth, possibly before the Trident, so that courtiers might hear what happened. 

 

I completely agree, I think Ashara had gone back to KL and smuggled Aegon out with the help of Varys.  I believe in that House of the Undying vision,  Dany is seeing from Ashara's point of view (Barristan remarks that Dany's eyes are like Ashara's, I know it doesn't necessarily connect but I think its a subtle clue about that scene). 

 

23 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

Then there's another possibility, however slim,  that makes Daynes owe Ned even more. If, besides all that's stated above, Arthur is Jon's father, it explains Daynes' attitude toward Ned. There's not much evidence for this one, perhaps only Jon's epiphany moment when he's dealing with an idWell I don't think Jon is Arthur's son. However, tentity crisis until dawn when he sees Sword of the Morning in the south. This could also work well with some small details in the story. For example, we know Ned has often spoken to Jon of Robert as the Demon of the Trident, a God among princes, where he'd killed Rhaegar, which is somewhat insensitive if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon's father. Or the fact that Ned seems genuinely upset for killing Arthur Dayne and speaks highly of him, whose son he is raising, while he hasn't thought of Rhaegar for so long even though he's supposed to be raising his son, naturally thinking of the father and his attitudes and behaviors at times. 

 

The Tower of Joy may be inspired by Joyous Gard in Arthurian legend, Lancelot (King Arthur's best knight ever and I think best friend?) had an affair with the queen Guinevere that was driving him nuts and they had run off to this tower.  I believe even Lancelot had died was buried there. While I don't think Arthur is Jon's father, could it be that Arthur was the father of Rhaenys?  Elia did have Rhaenys the same year she was married to Rhaegar. Could it be that Ned had promised to keep this a secret? Maybe Arthur killed himself because he felt guilt? He could be Aegon's father as well, and if he is and he knows Aegon is alive then yes I can also see why the Daynes would be happy with Ned keeping the secret. But Aegon looks like Rhaegar lol

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It depends on the circumstances. In the heat of battle, when the swords are swinging, Howland nets Arthur's sword arm at the last second so he can't block the cut the Ned is making.

And I know the popular impression, both in-story and among the fandom, is that Ned killed Arthur, but I don't think Ned ever says this. He told Bran that Arthur would have killed him if not for Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean Ned killed Arthur. It could have been Howland all by himself.

Yea, I agree he could have killed him in the heat of the moment. It just doesn't seem to fit completely in for me. Ned just gets really sad when talking about his death, I feel like his death was more tragic. Of course it could just be nothing and he really was killed by some kind of surprise attack. 

I also agree with the wording, it seems to be Howland that was one that killed him or his actions that caused the fight to stop. 

[EggBlue]

7 hours ago, Crona said:

The Tower of Joy may be inspired by Joyous Gard in Arthurian legend, Lancelot (King Arthur's best knight ever and I think best friend?) had an affair with the queen Guinevere that was driving him nuts and they had run off to this tower.  I believe even Lancelot had died was buried there. While I don't think Arthur is Jon's father, could it be that Arthur was the father of Rhaenys?  Elia did have Rhaenys the same year she was married to Rhaegar. Could it be that Ned had promised to keep this a secret? Maybe Arthur killed himself because he felt guilt? He could be Aegon's father as well, and if he is and he knows Aegon is alive then yes I can also see why the Daynes would be happy with Ned keeping the secret. But Aegon looks like Rhaegar lol

The similarities between Arthur/Lancelot and Rhaegar/Arthur had been out there. That could be a mixture with the earlier versions of Arthurian legends, though, where Lancelot and Guinevere's love is only courtly love. That would make Arthur and Elia even more tragic. It is pretty doubtful that it would even matter that Daynes owe Ned anything if Rhaenys had indeed been Arthur's. She is dead, and so is the Targaryen dynasty at that point. Not that they could know for sure who had been the father. as for Aegon, whether Arthur had possessed Valyrian features or not, Jon Connington, who had known Arthur, Rhaegar, and Elia pretty well, believes Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's. whatever that means!

I'm not a firm believer in the theory of Jon being Arthur's son, as usually, the straight answer works better, in this case, RLJ or, at the very least, NAJ! However, I like to entertain it as it would make Jon the next Sword of the Morning, and we won't have to question his lack of Targ magic.  

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Crona said:

 

Yea, I agree he could have killed him in the heat of the moment. It just doesn't seem to fit completely in for me. Ned just gets really sad when talking about his death, I feel like his death was more tragic. Of course it could just be nothing and he really was killed by some kind of surprise attack. 

I also agree with the wording, it seems to be Howland that was one that killed him or his actions that caused the fight to stop. 

Yeah, I can easily see why this memory would make Ned sad: honorable Ned reflecting on the fact that the most honorable knight he had ever known was killed in a dishonorable fashion, and the world thinks Ned did it in a fair fight but he cannot set the record straight because that might lead to questions about Lyanna and Jon.