Fandom Phases

[The Bard of Banefort]

I started reading ASOIAF close to a decade ago, and in that time I've watched the fandom go through a lot of different "phases." For those of you who have been reading these books since the 90s, you've seen far more. What are some ways the fandom has changed throughout the years? Here are some that I've noticed:

• Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.
  • At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet.
• After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.
• Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.
• A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.
• The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.
• Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . . "
• ASOIAF was always criticized for its depictions of rape and, to a lesser extent, childbirth deaths. Now there's more criticism about child brides, age gaps, sexualization of characters, etc.
  • This has also made the fandom more serious overall, which has sucked the fun out of it a bit, unfortunately. Now if you want to ship Hot Pie and Old Nan, you have to include a 500-word essay about how fiction isn't real, depiction isn't endorsement, yada yada.
• While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.
• Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans. 
• Less hate for Catelyn, but she's still not terribly well-liked.
• People are slowly starting to realize that Littlefinger is actually pretty ridiculous (myself included).

Edited March 30, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[EggBlue]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I started reading ASOIAF close to a decade ago, and in that time I've watched the fandom go through a lot of different "phases." For those of you who have been reading these books since the 90s, you've seen far more. What are some ways the fandom has changed throughout the years? Here are some that I've noticed:

ooh , fun.

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.
  • At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet.

yeah , well , Lannisters are pretty evil! lol . 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.

I kinda got the opposite of this ever since I joined the forum (and started watching youtube fan videos before that). seems like the show has solidified the lack of importance in YG's character in the fandom.  

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.

wait a minute, she is more human now? there was a time that Dany hard-core fans were even more faithful?! 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.
• The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.

good

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . . "

that was kinda embarrassing! 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• ASOIAF was always criticized for its depictions of rape and, to a lesser extent, childbirth deaths. Now there's more criticism about child brides, age gaps, sexualization of characters, etc.
  • This has also made the fandom more serious overall, which has sucked the fun out of it a bit, unfortunately. Now if you want to ship Hot Pie and Old Nan, you have to include a 500-word essay about how fiction isn't real, depiction isn't endorsement, yada yada.

I know where this is coming from Bard . have we been hard on you about Sansan?

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.

wow! Do you call this few?! 

after thinking for a moment, I recalled we had more than popular threads criticizing GRRM . so that sounds about right

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans. 

ha!

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

ooh , fun.

yeah , well , Lannisters are pretty evil! lol . 

I kinda got the opposite of this ever since I joined the forum (and started watching youtube fan videos before that). seems like the show has solidified the lack of importance in YG's character in the fandom.  

wait a minute, she is more human now? there was a time that Dany hard-core fans were even more faithful?! 

good

that was kinda embarrassing! 

I know where this is coming from Bard . have we been hard on you about Sansan?

wow! Do you call this few?! 

after thinking for a moment, I recalled we had more than popular threads criticizing GRRM . so that sounds about right

ha!

 

The funny thing about the shipping one is that there’s now pushback against people shipping LukexAemond because “Luke is a minor” and like. . . yeah, Aemond looks like a forty year old man, but the characters are both supposed to be teenagers. Relax. 

I personally don’t like Rhaegar, but it’s gotten to the point where even I feel obliged to defend him at times.

I think it’s more that Dany’s haters are less passionate now. But I agree, her fans are crazier post-GOT.

[GZ Bloodraven]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.

I want to emphasize the impact of Alt Shift X's Youtube channel on a lot of the online discussion surrounding ASOIAF. His "The real Tyrion Lannister" video got 6.7 million views, 7% of the entire readership of ASOIAF. That obviously moves people over, especially those who were casually invested in the TV show who then became hyperinvested in the books. 

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

• While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.

I don't think he's a master of his story, and that's been apparent since he scrapped the time jump he wanted, but I do think he's a master of his characters. He has never seemed as concerned with plot as he does with making the people he writes occupy genuinely compelling spaces in the world that he created. He has allowed Westeros to truly become one of the greatest fictional worlds, filled to the brim with realistic depth and detail. I think people appreciate GRRM for his genius now than they used to, but I'm also pretty new to the deeper fandom.

[LongRider]

What does MQD refer to?   Always hated Clegane bowl.   @The Bard of Banefort are you a   SanSan fan?  Me too, do they still exist?   Being old and dorky, I never watch any of the videos as this forum is enough for me.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 minutes ago, LongRider said:

What does MQD refer to?   Always hated Clegane bowl.   @The Bard of Banefort are you a   SanSan fan?  Me too, do they still exist?   Being old and dorky, I never watch any of the videos as this forum is enough for me.  

Mad Queen Daenerys

Yes, I also ship SanSan. I fully acknowledge that it would be creepy in real life, but I like it in the books. I think that there are still a lot of fans of all the “problematic” relationships (Dany/Drogo, Rhaegar/Lyanna, anything from Fire & Blood, even Jaime/Brienne) but that they’ve been mostly discouraged by all the name-calling.

39 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I want to emphasize the impact of Alt Shift X's Youtube channel on a lot of the online discussion surrounding ASOIAF. His "The real Tyrion Lannister" video got 6.7 million views, 7% of the entire readership of ASOIAF. That obviously moves people over, especially those who were casually invested in the TV show who then became hyperinvested in the books. 

I don't think he's a master of his story, and that's been apparent since he scrapped the time jump he wanted, but I do think he's a master of his characters. He has never seemed as concerned with plot as he does with making the people he writes occupy genuinely compelling spaces in the world that he created. He has allowed Westeros to truly become one of the greatest fictional worlds, filled to the brim with realistic depth and detail. I think people appreciate GRRM for his genius now than they used to, but I'm also pretty new to the deeper fandom.

Yeah, as much as I like ASX, I disagree with much of his Tyrion analysis, and it had a huge influence on fans. Something he blames Tyrion for is his treatment of Cersei, insisting that if Tyrion had been nicer to his sister, she wouldn’t have accused him of murdering Joffrey. Except, we know that isn’t true because of the introduction of the valonqar prophecy. For better or worse, Tyrion was essentially absolved of any wrongdoing because of it. Cersei would have never trusted Tyrion no matter how hard he tried to win her over, and she would have been looking for any possible way to have him whacked. Even if Tyrion is both flawed and privileged, most of what happens to him is still supposed to be a reflection of how society treats people who are unable to conform to its standards.

[LongRider]

51 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Mad Queen Daenerys

Yes, I also ship SanSan. I fully acknowledge that it would be creepy in real life, but I like it in the books. I think that there are still a lot of fans of all the “problematic” relationships (Dany/Drogo, Rhaegar/Lyanna, anything from Fire & Blood, even Jaime/Brienne) but that they’ve been mostly discouraged by all the name-calling.

Thanks for the post.  Shipping fictional characters is fun and why not, we all like to know about relationships.  The name calling and all the trolling on the old Sansa threads was just so tiring.  
Show Tyrion, as I didn’t watch the abomination past the 4th season, I missed out on most of his ‘Sainthood’.  Glad too as I like Tyrion he such scoundrel who is fun to read. 

 

58 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even if Tyrion is both flawed and privileged, most of what happens to him is still supposed to be a reflection of how society treats people who are unable to conform to its standards.

Well said. The fandom has changed once the show ended, for better or worse. 

[SeanF]

I’d say many book fans reacted very strongly against later seasons of GOT.  A lot of people (myself included) loathed St.Tyrion, detested the remaining Stark siblings, found Dany a lot more sympathetic by the end of Season 8 than at the end of Season 7, and thought Jon was a weak fool.

But, these characters were really flat caricatures of their book counterparts.

I read the books in 2011, and joined the forum in that year.  My impressions are:

1.  Yes, opinions on Tyrion have nose-dived, and I’m quite sure reaction to the show is big part of that.

2.  Other than the stupid shit-posting threads, the Starks remain very popular.  Yet, when I started, there was a tendency to view them (apart from Catelyn) as saints.     That has gone, I think, partly in response to the show.  They are highly sympathetic, but also flawed.

3.  Dany is *way* more popular than in 2011.   No discussion about her was complete without Apple Martini and Tze weighing in about her being the child of Satan.

4.  Following on, there were a lot of posts contrasting Jon’s moral purity with Dany’s evil.  Most posters recognise them now as being similar people.

5.  I really miss the threads on Cat the Monster.  They were such fun to read.

 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

We are all currently in the copium phase

[SeanF]

WRT Dany v Sansa, the big issue is “shipping” wars.  

[Craving Peaches]

I've noticed there are far fewer 'Stannis the Mannis' fans around, and those who remain have become less... radical?

[StarkTullies]

I marathoned the available seasons of the show in 2017 (1-6), and I read the books soon after that.  I wasn't aware of the fandom opinions until I started lurking in this forum about 3 years ago (I joined much more recently), so I haven't seen the history.  I hear repeatedly that this forum used have endless anti-Daenerys rantings the way there are endless anti-Stark rantings now, which I believe... but I certainly haven't witnessed that for myself.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.

I am surprised how infrequently Tyrion is talked about on this forum, considering he is the #1 character in chapter count.  I find his book character repulsive (and have ever since Book 1 when he silently triumphed over Masha Heddle's death).

I'm sure I have unconscious bias on how the show impacts my perception of the characters, but honestly King Robert is the only character who I see the show version in my mind when reading them.  Mark Addy was perfectly cast as Robert.  (I would say the same thing about Sean Bean/Ned Stark, except that ~50 year old Sean was way too old for 35 year old Ned.)  The other characters, my mind can't even connect them to their show counterpart when reading about them except for a few minor characters (Maester Luwin being one).  The book and show versions are so different that my mind unconsciously refuses to acknowledge that they are supposed to be the same character.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true.

I never felt like the books were trying to trick us into think that Dany (or any other character) was perfect.  Other than a few Red Priests (who say similar things about Dany as Mel says about Stannis), I don't think any character in the books claims she is the model of perfection either.  Just some posters in this forum.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations."

Ah, glad I missed that.  I liked the fact that there were signs all over the place for the Red Wedding, and it wasn't an out of nowhere shock.  (Shocking perhaps if I hadn't seen the show first, but not out of nowhere.)  Twists and shocks are great, but not if it compromises the story making sense, and "subverting expectations" sounds like a catchphrase for justifying illogic.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans.

It is difficult to believe from I see here, but that is sad because there is no logical reason why there shouldn't be an overlap.  Both of them are strong females in other ways than picking up a sword.  None of the Stark children have given any thought to the Targaryens, and Dany hasn't given any conscious thought to the children of the "Usurper's Dog".  There is no reason to think they should be natural enemies.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

People are slowly starting to realize that Littlefinger is actually pretty ridiculous (myself included).

I always thought he was the most plot-armored character of any character, but if anything, the show makes me think the book version is less ridiculous (relative to the absurdity that was Post-Joffrey's Wedding Show Petyr).

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Less hate for Catelyn, but she's still not terribly well-liked.

Yeah, that's one thing that I've seen change noticeably even in the short time I've been aware of the general fandom.  The claim that Cat started the war and all the other anti-Catelyn statements were really annoying, and I'm glad I don't see it that much anymore.

[Sandy Clegg]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.

Out with the old, in with the new, I say!

I think the problem is that people like BryndenFish etc went as far as they could with extrapolating theories from the ‘surface’ plot. At which point there probably is not much more to uncover. Then we had @LmL and the new wave of symbolism explainers who forged a path for exciting new ways to read the books. I think the time may be right for a third wave, and I strongly feel that examining the wordplay and ‘game-like’ aspects of the books can open up a ton of new theorising. 

But like I always say, I’m an optimist. It all stems from a love of George’s writing and admiration for what he’s achieved. The layers he has put into the books are incredible and I still believe that he has kept his ability to stay three steps ahead of us at all times. these books have only just begun to give up their secrets.  

[Nevets]

Fewer Stannis super fans

Fewer Dany haters

More, or more visible Stark hate (mainly Jon and Arya)

Less uncritical cheering of Arya 

Less Sansa hate 

Lot less Catelyn hate 

More criticism of young characters' ages

 

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.

I guess part of that is due to the fact that the biggest ones became bonafide content creators on Youtube and other platforms, they don't have time or incentives to stay on the forum.

As for BryndenBFish, I don't know the specifics of why he peaced out, but a possibility is not wanting to deal with the toxic fan mob dynamic that any celebrity or quasi-celebrity has to deal with on social media.

Also, once you start a more or less official project like a series dedicated to chapter-by-chapter analysis, the project inevitably becomes a burden and a chore, with fan expectations serving as a little sword of Damocles to rival GRRM's own for the actual series! I notice that Steven Attewell hasn't updated his own project in almost a year. Just sayin...

Not to mention the pressures of parenthood. Maybe Jeff's wife was like "Um...you better help me with these kids or else get a royal taster for your food."

Edited March 30, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

.  The claim that Cat started the war and all the other anti-Catelyn statements were really annoying, and I'm glad I don't see it that much anymore.

That was the least of it.  Catelyn abused Jon (one thread claimed she sexually abused him);  she was an evil step-mother;  she was selfish, putting her husband to the expense of building a sept, rather than converting to his religion; she abandoned Bran;  she betrayed Robb etc.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

putting her husband to the expense of building a sept, rather than converting to his religion

Ages ago I read someone claimed the Starks were 'punished' because Ned built a Sept for Catelyn...

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

guess part of that is due to the fact that the biggest ones became bonafide content creators on Youtube and other platforms, they don't have time or incentives to stay on the forum.

Not nearly as many as think of themselves in those terms. Just sayin'. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ages ago I read someone claimed the Starks were 'punished' because Ned built a Sept for Catelyn...

I think that’s the product of all the people who get a little too much into the eldritch apocalypse stuff. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that’s the product of all the people who get a little too much into the eldritch apocalypse stuff. 

I mean usually I find people quite tolerant but on this site some people are really against religious tolerance and syncretism for some reason... I know people don't like the FotS, think it's rubbish and has no power but if you look closely characters' prayers are actually answered, Davos has a vision etc. so? I mean why would the 'Powers that Be' care about Ned building a Sept for his wife, it's not like the Heart Tree got cut down or anything.