Fandom Phases

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What was the reaction to Feast and Dance when they were first released? By the time I came around, they were being held up as masterpieces, but I don’t think that was how they were initially received.

Their current perception is like how it was when they were released, i.e. disappointment. Something along the lines of "We've waited 5-6 years for this?"

[The Bard of Banefort]

18 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Their current perception is like how it was when they were released, i.e. disappointment. Something along the lines of "We've waited 5-6 years for this?"

So are people past the point of thinking AFFC/ADWD are masterpieces then? That was another product of the BryndenBFish/Poor Quentyn/Feldman era. Personally, I’m partial to AFFC because I love the Lannister chapters and we’re spared the boredom of both the Wall and Meereen (although we still have Sam and Arya), but I can recognize that the first three books are still stronger, story-wise. 

That’s another unfortunate consequence of TWOW taking so long. Even though die-hards like us will spend a decade analyzing it either way, no book can live up to twelve years (at least) of anticipation.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So are people past the point of thinking AFFC/ADWD are masterpieces then? That was another product of the BryndenBFish/Poor Quentyn/Feldman era. Personally, I’m partial to AFFC because I love the Lannister chapters and we’re spared the boredom of both the Wall and Meereen (although we still have Sam and Arya), but I can recognize that the first three books are still stronger, story-wise. 

That’s another unfortunate consequence of TWOW taking so long. Even though die-hards like us will spend a decade analyzing it either way, no book can live up to twelve years (at least) of anticipation.

I never had to wait for AFFC, and ADWD, so I just went straight into them after the others.  I wouldn't call them masterpieces, but I enjoyed them a lot.

Unlike you, I found the Wall storyline very gripping.  Like you, I found Meereen disappointing (until Daznak's Pit).  The number of chapters could have been cut by half, along with Tyrion's journeying, giving us the two battles that ADWD was building up to.  Then, I would have rated it the best in the series.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I never had to wait for AFFC, and ADWD, so I just went straight into them after the others.  I wouldn't call them masterpieces, but I enjoyed them a lot.

Unlike you, I found the Wall storyline very gripping.  Like you, I found Meereen disappointing (until Daznak's Pit).  The number of chapters could have been cut by half, along with Tyrion's journeying, giving us the two battles that ADWD was building up to.  Then, I would have rated it the best in the series.

This seems to happen a lot with popular authors. Their editors stop editing and the books become bloated as a result.

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What was the reaction to Feast and Dance when they were first released? By the time I came around, they were being held up as masterpieces, but I don’t think that was how they were initially received.

In my experience, the cycle for new releases in any long-running series goes something like:

1. The most exciteable superfans consume the new release and immediately proclaim it the greatest thing that has ever happened in any genre or media ever, sometimes before even finishing it. (Not unknown in a film context for such declarations to be made on the basis of a trailer alone).

2. Within about a month, more sceptical voices arise, querying the obvious flaws.

3. Flamewars ensue as the stans defend their new messiah. This inevitably drives neutrals and moderates into the camp of the critics. More cautious and thoughtful hardcore fans keep their heads down.

Now, stage 3 is often cut short by a new release in the series after, say, a year or two, in which case the stans switch their attention to the new release and this allows for a sober reflection on how good the previous release actually was in context.

But in this case I think we've reached stage 4: the stans of stage 1 have either burned out and vanished or matured and realised that they were embarrassing themselves. The more critical voices and the less invested of the moderates have also drifted away because their investment was always lower and something else has attracted their attention.

Into this conversational void move the more thoughtful hardcore fans, who have now analysed the release to death and proclaim it a masterpiece, but in a sufficiently thorough and overwhelming way that it's hard to challenge except by those really dedicated to criticism (who by this stage are almost definitionally less motivated to do so). So the "masterpiece" analysis attains an apparent consensus.

 

That broadly mirrors my experience with Dance, although I wasn't on here at first when it came out so I can't say with complete confidence what the reception here was, only on the secondary, more general, fora I was on at the time.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This seems to happen a lot with popular authors. Their editors stop editing and the books become bloated as a result.

Filmmakers too, I think. In my view at least, the best films tend to come when a director is given a great deal of creative control but still has to answer and justify themselves to the producers, if only because that dialectic process forces the director him/herself to seriously consider whether what they've come up with is actually any good.

You don't want the producers riding roughshod over the director: you generally want the director to win those arguments. But those arguments need to be had. Once that level of oversight is lost and the director is left to their own devices. you often end up with bloated, self-indulgent films that you feel could have been great with a proper edit.

[Mithras]

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

43 minutes ago, Mithras said:

 

God, can you imagine how great it would be to get a new ASOIAF book every six years? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I just remembered another huge fandom phase that we’ve only just started to come out of: the widespread belief that there are absolutely no heroes or villains in ASOIAF, and that every character is grey. 

I remember when George described Arya as a hero like a year ago, and that felt like a turning point haha

[SeanF]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:32 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I just remembered another huge fandom phase that we’ve only just started to come out of: the widespread belief that there are absolutely no heroes or villains in ASOIAF, and that every character is grey. 

I remember when George described Arya as a hero like a year ago, and that felt like a turning point haha

No one who wields power in this world can be wholly good. Yet there are leaders, as in real life, who are enlightened for their times.

But there are characters in this tale who are rotten to the core.

Unlike the people who post shit about the Starks, I do understand we are not meant to be rooting for Tywin, Cersei, Lord Walder, the Boltons etc.

Edited April 7, 2023 by SeanF

[csuszka1948]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:46 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

Yeah, as much as I like ASX, I disagree with much of his Tyrion analysis, and it had a huge influence on fans. Something he blames Tyrion for is his treatment of Cersei, insisting that if Tyrion had been nicer to his sister, she wouldn’t have accused him of murdering Joffrey. Except, we know that isn’t true because of the introduction of the valonqar prophecy. For better or worse, Tyrion was essentially absolved of any wrongdoing because of it. Cersei would have never trusted Tyrion no matter how hard he tried to win her over, and she would have been looking for any possible way to have him whacked. 

 

I think much of the problems stems from the fact that Cersei was retconned in AFFC to become a more vicious character. Before AFFC, in a certain light she could be legitimately viewed as a less competent and less ostracized (although her being a woman causes a similar problem as dwarfism for Tyrion) version of Tyrion.

[csuszka1948]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:03 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

• Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.
• At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet.
• After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.
• Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.
• A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.
• The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.
• Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . . "
• ASOIAF was always criticized for its depictions of rape and, to a lesser extent, childbirth deaths. Now there's more criticism about child brides, age gaps, sexualization of characters, etc.
  • This has also made the fandom more serious overall, which has sucked the fun out of it a bit, unfortunately. Now if you want to ship Hot Pie and Old Nan, you have to include a 500-word essay about how fiction isn't real, depiction isn't endorsement, yada yada.
• While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.
• Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans. 
• Less hate for Catelyn, but she's still not terribly well-liked.
• People are slowly starting to realize that Littlefinger is actually pretty ridiculous (myself included).

 

 

 

 

 

1) Tyrion: yes, I think that might be pushback for the show and interpreting some of his actions in the worst light. At the same time, his problematic attitude towards woman is more of an issue nowadays.

2) Jaime: for me, Jaime's show ending was actually a wake-up call that my viewpoint of his character might be too generous.

The fandom really hated Jaime saying 'I never cared for them, innocent or otherwise', but do we actually see from Jaime's POV that he cared a lot about the innocents of King's Landing? Besides, it very much seems that he killed Aerys out of spite (not that it was a mistake) and tried to hide it, but Lannister soldiers entered the room after he committed the act.

3) Yes, I think the show caused many people to reevaluate YG as an important character. I also used to do so, but I am not sure it is correct, it really depends on Dany's ending.

4) I think bookDany was always fallible, but showDany was portrayed as some kind of incredibly entitled and competent queen without insecurities after AGOT, and it was incredibly annoying. She was as competent and confident as many of the Dany fans believe (for example, the catastrophe of Astapor or giving up power to the slavers in ADWD being left out) and as violent and entitled as many of her detractors believe (her desire for the 'house with the red door' and many of her softer moments left out).

She was really shown as a class A badass, which was reallly good for the viewer numbers. My main problem with Dany's descent into villainy is that she took a complete turn at the beginning of season 7, becoming peace-loving and very incompetent so that it can lead to the desired events.

5) Yes, many of them left. I would say Stannis fandom in particular was very much reduced, I would say the current view of Stannis in this forums is probably too dark (like believing that he waited for Robert's death), when for many years the complete opposite held true.

5) I think the show made many readers to realize that 'subverting expectations' is not necessarily a positive thing.

6) Yes, child brides are much more of an issue now. I think that's in large part George's fault for romanticizing some of them (Dany-Drogo, ehem) and not realizing (perhaps because the academic or pop-culture consensus was different in the 90s) that in real medieval life marriages usually weren't consummated until the bride was 16 or often older. However, I think sometimes the fandom goes too far, 23-4 year old Rhaegar with 15-16 year old Lyanna isn't some pedophilic relationship, in European countries (unlike most of the US) it would be allowed.

7) I think FeastDance should have made people realize this.  On the other hand, the show made many readers appreciate FeastDance more and insist that is must be part of some 'grand plan', and I feel they have good points, but are also set up for a partial disappointment when (if) TWOW is revealed.

One thing the three confirmed big twists (Stannis burning Shireen, Hold the Door with time traveling Bran, King Bran) from the show should have revealed (but didn't) is that the fandom might be too arrogant and not as good at reading George's mind as they think.

8) Overlap between Dany and Sansa fans shouldn't be surprising, both of them were abused for a long time and still able to retain their kindness and aim to do good instead of becoming Cerseis or using their newfound power to abuse people. The Starks and Dany set up as potential enemies causes a problem, and the show (both with some of the fans making up Jonsa and the hostile relationship between Dany and Sansa) exarberated this issue a hundredfold.

I think most Dany fans didn't use to hate or dislike the Starks, at most find some of their storylines dull, but now many of them are raging Stark haters.

9) Ironically, I think the show portrayed Cat much less smart than she is in the books, but by playing into the 'grieving mother' persona (+her story about Jon and the gods) they also made her more sympathetic. She is no longer popular to be viewed as some kind of monster.

10) My problem is LF has perhaps the most blatant plot armor and luck in the series. He is supposed to be thriving in chaos, but his main plans somehow always work out due to factors present outside of him. 

George's reasoning for him getting away with lying about the dagger and Tyrion (a deeply vindicative person who spent a month locked up in sky cells due to this lie!) was ridiculous in ACOK.

I feel many of his plans (murdering Jon Arryn, sending a letter and then hoping civil war happens and benefits us? lying about a dagger?) are as risky gambles as Catelyn's (take Tyrion because he recognized her and bring her to her sister; release Jaime because Tyrion wouldn't lie in open court and trade her for Robb's heirs Sansa and Arya), just LF has somehow gotten incredibly lucky (Ned discovers truth on his own and doesn't tell Robert; Renly dies; Tyrion ignores him) and Cat incredibly unlucky (LF and Lysa are both lying to her which is insanity; Tywin somehow returns from the west to save KL and takes up Handship).

Edited June 24, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:05 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maegor the Male Feminist is one of the most genuinely bizarre takes I’ve seen, and I don’t even think it’s trolling. It’s espoused by Rhaenyra stans who think Maegor was progressive for temporarily naming Aerea his heir. (They seem to forget about him personally murdering two of his wives and forcing three others—including his niece—to marry him).

 

Does Rhaenyra have much to do with progressivity though?

 

She is not a feminist or a representation of feminism, since she is not about to introduce Dornish succession system, not even for the Throne (which could be done), her claim is based on the fact that her father declared her heir, defying all customs and traditions of Westeros and rulings of the previous Great Councils. 

She could demonstrate that females are good rulers, but I really think she serves as a counterexample. Obviously she is not bad because she is a female, but because of her upbringing and general attitude and cowardice and paranoia.

Or is it about the principle that a ruler should be able to name his/her successor? I think it is a progressive principle (after all, we can leave out even our own children as beneficiaries from our bills), and I don't think this is necessarily a bad principle and can lead to a chain of good rulers (see the golden rulers of Rome), but was Rhaenyra supporting this?

[csuszka1948]

On 3/31/2023 at 1:40 PM, Mithras said:

And they were right lol.

 

Were they? This sounds interesting from a person who is unwilling to accept (despite direct confirmation, something that doesn't exist for Dany) that Jon Snow won't be final King.

That said, I think the show portrayed it very well why making Dany a 'final villain' while maintaining the Others as final antagonists doesn't work as a story, because it makes out one or two of them jokes.

The popular fandom take became that Dany will accidentally burn KL and then help the fight against the Others to 'redeem herself', because that's what actually makes sense from a storytelling perspective.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

1) Tyrion: yes, I think that might be pushback for the show and interpreting some of his actions in the worst light. At the same time, his problematic attitude towards woman is more of an issue nowadays.

2) Jaime: for me, Jaime's show ending was actually a wake-up call that my viewpoint of his character might be too generous.

The fandom really hated Jaime saying 'I never cared for them, innocent or otherwise', but do we actually see from Jaime's POV that he cared a lot about the innocents of King's Landing? Besides, it very much seems that he killed Aerys out of spite (not that it was a mistake) and tried to hide it, but Lannister soldiers entered the room after he committed the act.

3) Yes, I think the show caused many people to reevaluate YG as an important character. I also used to do so, but I am not sure it is correct, it really depends on Dany's ending.

4) I think bookDany was always fallible, but showDany was portrayed as some kind of incredibly entitled and competent queen without insecurities after AGOT, and it was incredibly annoying. She was as competent and confident as many of the Dany fans believe (for example, the catastrophe of Astapor or giving up power to the slavers in ADWD being left out) and as violent and entitled as many of her detractors believe (her desire for the 'house with the red door' and many of her softer moments left out).

She was really shown as a class A badass, which was reallly good for the viewer numbers. My main problem with Dany's descent into villainy is that she took a complete turn at the beginning of season 7, becoming peace-loving and very incompetent so that it can lead to the desired events.

5) Yes, many of them left. I would say Stannis fandom in particular was very much reduced, I would say the current view of Stannis in this forums is probably too dark (like believing that he waited for Robert's death), when for many years the complete opposite held true.

5) I think the show made many readers to realize that 'subverting expectations' is not necessarily a positive thing.

6) Yes, child brides are much more of an issue now. I think that's in large part George's fault for romanticizing some of them (Dany-Drogo, ehem) and not realizing (perhaps because the academic or pop-culture consensus was different in the 90s) that in real medieval life marriages usually weren't consummated until the bride was 16 or often older. However, I think sometimes the fandom goes too far, 23-4 year old Rhaegar with 15-16 year old Lyanna isn't some pedophilic relationship, in European countries (unlike most of the US) it would be allowed.

7) I think FeastDance should have made people realize this.  On the other hand, the show made many readers appreciate FeastDance more and insist that is must be part of some 'grand plan', and I feel they have good points, but are also set up for a partial disappointment when (if) TWOW is revealed.

One thing the three confirmed big twists (Stannis burning Shireen, Hold the Door with time traveling Bran, King Bran) from the show should have revealed (but didn't) is that the fandom might be too arrogant and not as good at reading George's mind as they think.

8) Overlap between Dany and Sansa fans shouldn't be surprising, both of them were abused for a long time and still able to retain their kindness and aim to do good instead of becoming Cerseis or using their newfound power to abuse people. The Starks and Dany set up as potential enemies causes a problem, and the show (both with some of the fans making up Jonsa and the hostile relationship between Dany and Sansa) exarberated this issue a hundredfold.

I think most Dany fans didn't use to hate or dislike the Starks, at most find some of their storylines dull, but now many of them are raging Stark haters.

9) Ironically, I think the show portrayed Cat much less smart than she is in the books, but by playing into the 'grieving mother' persona (+her story about Jon and the gods) they also made her more sympathetic. She is no longer popular to be viewed as some kind of monster.

10) My problem is LF has perhaps the most blatant plot armor and luck in the series. He is supposed to be thriving in chaos, but his main plans somehow always work out due to factors present outside of him. 

George's reasoning for him getting away with lying about the dagger and Tyrion (a deeply vindicative person who spent a month locked up in sky cells due to this lie!) was ridiculous in ACOK.

I feel many of his plans (murdering Jon Arryn, sending a letter and then hoping civil war happens and benefits us? lying about a dagger?) are as risky gambles as Catelyn's (take Tyrion because he recognized her and bring her to her sister; release Jaime because Tyrion wouldn't lie in open court and trade her for Robb's heirs Sansa and Arya), just LF has somehow gotten incredibly lucky (Ned discovers truth on his own and doesn't tell Robert; Renly dies; Tyrion ignores him) and Cat incredibly unlucky (LF and Lysa are both lying to her which is insanity; Tywin somehow returns from the west to save KL and takes up Handship).

4) I totally agree.  

8) I don’t think that Dany and the Starks being at odds over Northern independence is necessarily a bad plot point. *How* it was done in the show was appalling. 

[csuszka1948]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

4) I totally agree.  

 

Yes, Dany burning part of KL immediately after arriving to Westeros could be actually consistent with showDany's character, but instead she started messing up. 

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

8) I don’t think that Dany and the Starks being at odds over Northern independence is necessarily a bad plot point. *How* it was done in the show was appalling. 

 

No, I don't think it's a bad plot point, I expect some kind of conflict to happen. I have meant it causes a problem for 'Dany and Sansa fans', it makes it more difficult for someone to 'stan' them both.

[Gilbert Green]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.

Prior to HBO's more-or-less successful campaign to convince the world that AGOT was equally for women, ASOIAF more-or-less followed the genre norm of having a readership that was predominantly male.  A significant and vocal minority of these were slightly sociopathic teenaged boys (and immature young men) who idolized the imp just a little more than they should have.  And the Imp was the only POV character (other than Dany) who seemed to be "winning" by any remote measure. 

But teenaged boys can't stay teenaged boys forever.  They grow up, and become a little less sociopathic.  12 years is a long time to wait between books.  And Tyrion was not having quite enough naughty wicked fun in Book 5.  He mostly just seemed to be getting kicked around.

His fans have drifted away.

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet

Jaime and Cersei received POVs.   Seems to me that's all that's needed for a villain to be regarded as a hero in the eyes of a significant minority of the readership.

Fans started to warm to Jaime first.  They saw his growing hatred of Cersei as a sign of redemption.  Which I don't think it is.  There are better signs of redemption, like his rescue of Brienne, but in the end, I don't think he is going to be redeemed.

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.

Was not conscious of this trend.

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.

I don't recall the MDQ acronym.  Just Dany defenders and Dany detractors.  I'm somewhere in the middle, but don't buy into Dany power fantasies.  I want her to ditch Drogon, and become happy, humble, and sane.  Drogon is bad news  

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works

I remember reading BryndenBFish's articles.  He was obviously just a fan.  Did not know he was regarded as a "titan" but maybe I wasn't part of the right community.  I did have the distinct impression that he specialized in telling other fans what they wanted to hear.  I guess the strategy worked for a while.  At least one of his articles has not aged too well.

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.

Haven't noticed this trend.  Nothing against "nuance" but "subverting expectations" is also something I'd like to hear less of.  "Shades of grey" is also over-used, but perhaps I dare not hope, since GRRM also uses it.

On 3/29/2023 at 9:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . .

Not sure why it's embarrassing.  But it is kind of hard to stay HYPE about Cleganebowl with these long waits.

I actually do think "the Mountain" and "the Hound" will fight.  I think that GRRM deliberately created these expectations for reasons of his own.  But who or what will really be under their helms?

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

The problem with the “subverting expectations” shit is that when you lean too hard into that, you get seasons 6-8. 

[SeanF]

WRT Jaime, because so much was made of the nobility of Jamie’s action in killing Aerys, his comment that he never cared about Kings Landing’s people came over as bizarre (not to mention, his willingness to justify his sister’s massacre of them).

If it was just down to Jaime hating Aerys, for his enormities, and his order to bring him his father’s head being the final straw, then it would indeed make sense.  Nor would it make the killing of Aerys wrong.  It would just not be altruistic.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Did I mention “x is Azhor Ahai confirmed”? That was a big one for a while.

The subreddits are back up again, but that little act that the mods pulled definitely killed a lot of activity. Not to mention that you can’t even look at Twitter now without an account. The fandom feels dead now in the way it never did before; whatever energy HOTD jolted back into it has dissipated. It’s so sad seeing how far we’ve fallen