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MCU - Hawkeye v Snowcat


BigFatCoward
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I didn't love Captain Marvel - there was quite a bit of try hard there, and their attempt to shoehorn in 90s nostalgia was not great. At the same time SLJ and Ben Mendelsohn went a long way to making it decent and I appreciated some of the beats they did. 

Mostly, I don't get why anyone would get particularly worked up about it one way or another. It wasn't bad. It wasn't particularly good. It was aggressively fine, much like almost all the other marvel movies and better than quite a few of them. I think Captain Marvel has been better in other places in the MCU so far and I appreciate how they've kind of solved the 'super powerful person' issue by simply having her not be around most of the time, but...it's real weird how people are getting so very up in arms about her in particular. That it keeps happening is even weirder to me. 

It's also remarkable to see people getting mad about having it stated that the entertainment industry isn't necessarily always going to be targeted towards them; to me this is a real indication that they do not understand how a whole lot of the entertainment industry isn't targeted towards lots of other people and they are the default, generic consumer. So when that is changed for whatever reason - or it's made clear that it is different - then they get angry because they now feel excluded in the same way many others are. But it shouldn't be surprising; are we really thinking that the Tyler Perry universe of movies is made for all audiences? Do we seriously think that The Notebook is targeted towards every demographic? 

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4 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

  It's also remarkable to see people getting mad about having it stated that the entertainment industry isn't necessarily always going to be targeted towards them; to me this is a real indication that they do not understand how a whole lot of the entertainment industry isn't targeted towards lots of other people and they are the default, generic consumer. So when that is changed for whatever reason - or it's made clear that it is different - then they get angry because they now feel excluded in the same way many others are. 

The weird thing to me is that it's not like the industry isn't still more than happy to accept your cash even if it's not made for you, you're just not the primary group they're interested in knowing if it worked for you or not.

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4 minutes ago, karaddin said:

you're just not the primary group they're interested in knowing if it worked for you or not.

They've consciously or not, come to see themselves as what is considered "normal", and thus, natural. And anything that stands in opposition to that is therefore somehow wrong, or even worse, unnatural. I've read enough Foucault to recognise this behaviour when I see it, and the work that goes into trying to get people to step outside their own immediate historic contexts to see that is...exhausting.  

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Brie Larson was completely fine, anyone saying she was really good or really bad, I'd imagine it's because they have a particular axe to grind. 

Tbf considering how many characters are in the MCU how many have actually been really good? RDJ, Michael B Jordan.... I'm already struggling, Evans is good/fine, as are Boseman and Ruffalo. That's about it, but to be fair to the actors, it's pretty hard to stand out with those roles.

The fact that there was Oscar talk for Bassett after BP2 shows how low the bar is. 

 

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9 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

It's also remarkable to see people getting mad about having it stated that the entertainment industry isn't necessarily always going to be targeted towards them;

I know this is what a lot of people think is happening, but i don’t agree that’s what’s going on, it’s simplistic and misses the point. 
 

I’d say almost everyone is happy for there to be more diversity on screen, they have no problems watching people who don’t look like them star in movies.

Where the complaints lay, and if you actually listen to what these complaints are you’ll see it time and again, is that it’s the way Hollywood does diversity that gets peoples backs up, not that they are doing it. 
 

It all comes down to the Hollywood view of left wing politics, which is only concerned with covering its own back to prevent criticisms of racism or sexism, so pushes hard to look radical whilst barely doing anything at all.

Then it’s also about the commercial laziness of Hollywood, completely devoid of new ideas or originality.

So instead of getting a range movies and tv shows featuring diverse casts and new characters and ideas, you have a handful of genres, mainly superhero movies, and a collection of existing IPs. Hollywood can’t create something new so they just change everything existing so that they can crowbar in more diversity.. and then just pray you get annoyed so they can look like the good guys!

Oh and they are going to accompany that diversity with the sort of simplistic, preachy, nonsensical far left talking points as much as they can to make sure it’s obvious they aren’t totally racist and sexist.

And so now everything is the same, there are no original ideas, everything is bland and poorly written.. oh but it has diversity so you’d better go watch it or you are a racist. 

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24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I know this is what a lot of people think is happening, but i don’t agree that’s what’s going on, it’s simplistic and misses the point. 
 

 

Okay, but that's entirely what started this whole sidequest of hating Brie Larson. Like, literally. The idea  that it's simplistic when it's the one thing that some people are apparently very angry at is not missing the point; it's responding to the point. 

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3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Okay, but that's entirely what started this whole sidequest of hating Brie Larson. Like, literally. The idea  that it's simplistic when it's the one thing that some people are apparently very angry at is not missing the point; it's responding to the point. 

No I think it does miss the point if you think people are upset because Brie Larson says that the industry won’t always be targeting them. 

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47 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

No I think it does miss the point if you think people are upset because Brie Larson says that the industry won’t always be targeting them. 

Interesting factoid, the whole 'intended audience' idea is, if I am not mistaken, linked to the four quadrant theory (which: @Tywin et al. -  is that the same thing as a target audience?).

Also, the idea is historically quite recent, having emerged, from what the New York Times suggests in this paywalled article that I cannot fully access, in the late 1990s.

That said, this sentiment about 'targeting' people - pulling it back to the actual context from which it sprung, was in reference to a lack of diversity among film critics, not audiences in general. We're talking about the wrong thing here, and letting that get the better of us. 

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

So… Loki… yeah…

If @Heartofice could see my face right now, the face they'd see is, like, the least excited face ever. I'm starting to get, like, hot flashes to when I gave up reading comics, and it was around the time of Uncanny X-Men #350 when I threw my hands up and gave up on the whole endeavour. Or maybe it was earlier, when every X-book crossed over so often that it broke my budget. 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

oh but it has diversity so you’d better go watch it or you are a racist. 

Who ever says shit like this?* Where does this happen? Is this, like, a mostly USian/Ukian thing? 'cause I can't imagine, like, @karaddin, being, like, "Ilya, you better watch this movie in your nearest cinema in Sydney otherwise you're a raging cockwomble argh gargle!"  

Obviously, I'm making light here for comedy's sake, but this just seems like a weird thing to say to anyone ever, anywhere. 

* Aside from clickbaiting youtube CHUDs. 

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HoI, you keep getting worked up whenever anyone says that there is backlash against Larssen because she's a woman etc etc because you appear to be assuming that anyone saying that is accusing you personally of doing that. 

 

But even in this topic we have lines like this:

 

14 hours ago, sifth said:

I imagine fans would have accepted Captain Marvel better, if she was presented in a more likeable and humble way.

 

 

This is exactly what I mean, like. The lead of thus universe was Tony Stark. He's not humble at all and his relationship with most of the characters is far more spiky and antagonistic, early on, than Carol's. If someone is arguing that she's got the wrong kind of charisma for the role or that her movie isn't particularly well written, fine. But when the argument is 'she should have been nicer' it's absolutely a double standard. 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Who ever says shit like this?* Where does this happen? Is this, like, a mostly USian/Ukian thing? 'cause I can't imagine, like, @karaddin, being, like, "Ilya, you better watch this movie in your nearest cinema in Sydney otherwise you're a raging cockwomble argh gargle!"  

Obviously, I'm making light here for comedy's sake, but this just seems like a weird thing to say to anyone ever, anywhere. 

* Aside from clickbaiting youtube CHUDs. 

Just any cinema isn't good enough, you've got to see it at the Dendy in Newtown and have a vegan dinner while you're in the area. For a TV series not showing in a cinema :p

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7 hours ago, karaddin said:

The weird thing to me is that it's not like the industry isn't still more than happy to accept your cash even if it's not made for you, you're just not the primary group they're interested in knowing if it worked for you or not.

You made me time travel here a bit, but years ago, after moving to Sydney, my boyfriend at the time would take me to the queer film festival held every year in Sydney. We'd sometimes go with mutual friends, and people in the audience seemed to react well to whatever he'd take me to see (including a movie that I only enjoyed because a cycling montage used Team Me's Dear Sister to excellent effect - Nate & Margaret, I think). 

It became clear quite quickly that I was not the primary audience for these movies. Cabaret left me cold, Little Eden didn't work for me at all, and Nate & Margaret just felt like an undercooked remake of Harold and Maude. But there were plenty of our friends at these screenings who loved the films being screened. And I know these movies and the Annual Madri Gras Film Festival mean a lot to Australia's queer community, and I'm immensely happy that people in the LGBTI+ community have an opportunity to see themselves represented on screen in films that might not make it onto major cinema screens due to scared distributors who fear protests or worse. 

But am I the primary target audience for these movies? Not really. I just wanted to go watch Dominic Torreto and his family make their cars fly at tanks whilst sipping Coronas and saluting their found family. (I have terribly tacky taste and I know it.

However, I'm not bothered that I might not be the ideal audience for these movies. Not everything is for everyone. Why this is is a point of frustration for some people I just do not know.

Edited by IlyaP
Forgot a word!
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4 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Just any cinema isn't good enough, you've got to see it at the Dendy in Newtown and have a vegan dinner while you're in the area. For a TV series not showing in a cinema :p

Heh, Green Mushroom or GTFO! :D 

And then a beer at the Marly, with all the Sydney Uni kids! :D 

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I...I...I made a mistake entering this place

33 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 But when the argument is 'she should have been nicer' it's absolutely a double standard.

Agreed with this post. It's really common to encounter lines and posts like the one sifth made but I think they're really off the mark & gross, really.

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6 minutes ago, Raja said:

I...I...I made a mistake entering this place

Agreed with this post. It's really common to encounter lines and posts like the one sifth made but I think they're really off the mark & gross, really.

What does "nicer" even mean? Like, is there an agreed-upon consensus as to what that would look or sound like in this particular context?

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1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

Who ever says shit like this?* Where does this happen? Is this, like, a mostly USian/Ukian thing? 'cause I can't imagine, like, @karaddin, being, like, "Ilya, you better watch this movie in your nearest cinema in Sydney otherwise you're a raging cockwomble argh gargle!"  

Obviously, I'm making light here for comedy's sake, but this just seems like a weird thing to say to anyone ever, anywhere. 

* Aside from clickbaiting youtube CHUDs. 

I was making  light of it but It happens. There are plenty of instances of female centric movies doing badly and then being blamed on sexist men not wanting to watch women on screen, charlie’s angels and ghostbusters for instance (ignore how terrible those movies are of course )

You don’t think Black Panther is a good movie? Wow you racist! I mean there is a whole South Park episode about it, but it’s even been said here a few times. 
 

Disney even preemptively got ahead of how shit Obi Wan was by pushing out the narrative that the fans hated it because there was a black character. That’s a standard tactic these days, fanbaiting. 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I was making  light of it but It happens. There are plenty of instances of female centric movies doing badly and then being blamed on sexist men not wanting to watch women on screen, charlie’s angels and ghostbusters for instance (ignore how terrible those movies are of course )

I confess I've not seen any of them. Mainly due to there only being so many hours in the day, and I'm always first and foremost going to go for wanky AF indie fare like pretty much anything made by Richard Linklater, before I go in for those movies. (I also don't know why we needed more Ghostbuster movies. There were 2 in the 80s, and I think that was really enough. Just like there was one Goonies movie and that's all we really needed. And we most definitely didn't need that awful Ferris Bueller TV show that I recently found that was...horrifying.)

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You don’t think Black Panther is a good movie? Wow you racist! I mean there is a whole South Park episode about it, but it’s even been said here a few times. 

Wait, what? That's a thing? You're kidding, right? 

Well. Heh. *throws up hands* What can I say? I clearly live in a really fortunate media bubble of some sort to not be on top of this. (Also, I didn't realise South Park was still going!) The perks of being TV free for over 24 years and generally not being all that interested in the medium. (I saw your mentioning all the stuff you've watched this year in the other post and my eyes popped out, as I just couldn't even begin to fathom how anyone could sit still long enough to watch that much media!)

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Disney even preemptively got ahead of how shit Obi Wan was by pushing out the narrative that the fans hated it because there was a black character. That’s a standard tactic these days, fanbaiting. 

I vaguely recall, I think it was news site Dark Horizons, reporting on that. Apparently some...social media accounts were being attacked with racist comments? Like, obviously, if there's smoke, there's fire, and it's better to say something than nothing, which can then empower racist fuckwards (which we do not want). 

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