The Witch Trials, anyone else?

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can't say for sure, but based on what she said on the podcast, I imagine that Rowling would accept something like a "Third Sex" interpretation of transgenderism. It's a minority case in which some people don't fit so well into one gender or another.

She definitely does not accept the prevailing interpretation of transgenderism as "gender is fluid/just a social construct/mostly arbitrary/limited only by our imaginations/or whatever I feel it is."

That's the more radical genderqueer version, and it's one that seeks to shatter the norm of how people view gender, rather than simply exist as a special exception to the larger rule.

 

To be really clear the prevailing theory of transgenderism is that what gender you are is primarily determined by your brain, not your gonads.

Defining them as a third sex when that isn't actually accurate would just be weird. Trans people identify, feel and are transitioning or are male or female. They aren't going to some different gender.

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Here's a second one for free JK Rowling reports three protesters outside her residence for criminal activity, believing that they are trying to reveal her home address - despite that address being so well known it is a tourist stop. 

I don't know how literal you want to get, but this is literally being afraid of trans people.

 

So woman who has had death threats is worried about people outside her house and .. this is transphobic?? Anything else, I mean you must see how weak this all this 

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

"I don't have any problem with gay people, but this push for equal rights is dangerous".  

Does that sound homophobic to you?

@Heartofice I see you were confused by this.  What I did was take your point that calling trans activism dangerous isn't the same as calling trans people dangerous, but then made it "gays" and "gay activism".  Apologies if that's too abstract an comparison to consider.  

[Kalbear]

Just now, Heartofice said:

So woman who has had death threats is worried about people outside her house and .. this is transphobic?? Anything else, I mean you must see how weak this all this 

People are around her house all the time. And have been for years and years. People have even been protesting outside her house for years. 

Didn't report then.

Reports the three trans people protesting peacefully.

Let me ask you this then - what would YOU view as transphobic behavior? What are your criteria to consider someone transphobic, if it is not irrationally fearing trans people?

[TrackerNeil]

6 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

To be really clear the prevailing theory of transgenderism is that what gender you are is primarily determined by your brain, not your gonads.

Is this theory supported by science? Last I heard, there's no such thing as a male or female brain, not in some fundamental way.

 

Quote

Let me ask you this then - what would YOU view as transphobic behavior? What are your criteria to consider someone transphobic, if it is not irrationally fearing trans people?

Personally, I don't care if she's afraid of trans people or not. Maybe the better question is: What is Rowling doing that is harming trans people?

Edited April 17 by TrackerNeil

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

People are around her house all the time. And have been for years and years. People have even been protesting outside her house for years. 

Didn't report then.

Reports the three trans people protesting peacefully.

Let me ask you this then - what would YOU view as transphobic behavior? What are your criteria to consider someone transphobic, if it is not irrationally fearing trans people?

So woman who has been threatened by trans activists get worried when trans activist are outside her house?

If she irrationally feared trans people then maybe you’d have a point, but what is saying is that men, who are not trans, might pretend to be so to get into women’s spaces. Except this never happens.. except in Scotland.

[Raja]

.....are we seriously asking 'what she has done to harm trans people'?

  

Edited April 17 by Raja

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Is this theory supported by science? Last I heard, there's no such thing as a male or female brain, not in some fundamental way.

It’s not. It’s a theory at best. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

 What is Rowling doing that is harming trans people?

She's calling the movement asking for them to be recognized as people "dangerous" and "misogynistic".  As a public figure whose books have been read around the world this absolutely harms trans people.

 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Is this theory supported by science? Last I heard, there's no such thing as a male or female brain, not in some fundamental way.

I mean, yes? There are very specific differences across male and female brains in the aggregate. To be clear this doesn't mean "good at math" or any of that bullshit.

Here's a study I found in 12 seconds of searching 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

 

Personally, I don't care if she's afraid of trans people or not. Maybe the better question is: What is Rowling doing that is harming trans people?

I think that's a different question, but probably the biggest one is advocating that trans women do not belong in spaces that cis women have. I don't think I need to explain why that would be harmful.

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

@Heartofice I see you were confused by this.  What I did was take your point that calling trans activism dangerous isn't the same as calling trans people dangerous, but then made it "gays" and "gay activism".  Apologies if that's too abstract an comparison to consider.  

Ok so is trans activism the same thing as trans people? Is there a tiny part of your brain which might concede she might actually be talking about trans activists? 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

15 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

To be really clear the prevailing theory of transgenderism is that what gender you are is primarily determined by your brain, not your gonads.

Defining them as a third sex when that isn't actually accurate would just be weird. Trans people identify, feel and are transitioning or are male or female. They aren't going to some different gender.

You mean the currently prevailing theory in most Western cultures, especially after much advocacy by certain trans rights activists. Third Sex/Gender is a very old concept, found in South Asia, certain Native American cultures, and elsewhere.

I don't need a lecture on how gender is conceived, or how it relates to biological sex. The point is that any model of gender is a model; it simplifies things in a way that's supposed to be useful to society. No model is absolutely perfect, and the usefulness of a model can depend on who's using it and how.

My main problem with the current "gender is a spectrum/social construct" model is that it generally minimizes the fact that the great overwhelming majority of people experience no dissonance between their birth sex, their assigned gender, and their gender identity. Sure, sometimes gender expectations can create dissonance or shame when people fail to meet them, especially when gender expectations are really rigid. But cases when people born boys identity as girls, or something in between, are the rare exception to the larger rule. And conceiving gender as if it were a spectrum of endless possibility seems to try to obviate the rule due to its exceptions, which is really odd.

I agree that we shouldn't have rigid gender expectations, but most people on this earth live their lives pretty snugly tucked into the norms for men vs women. The exceptions should by no means be demonized, just as left-handed people should not. But those rare exceptions prove the lager rule. And PR campaigns trans rights would be so much easier if activists gave up their Utopian ideals and simply went with what most people would understand.

As for whether they are their assigned gender vs something else: it's like "adopted parent." In most cases, it's no different from a biological parent, and it's actually quite rude to point out the difference. But in some contexts, the difference are quite relevant. Trans men and women are adoptive-men and women--or even something in-between, for the NB folks--which are special cases requiring special attention.

Edited April 17 by Phylum of Alexandria

[TrackerNeil]

Just now, Larry of the Lake said:

She's calling the movement asking for them to be recognized as people "dangerous" and "misogynistic".  As a public figure whose books have been read around the world this absolutely harms trans people.

I guess the next question would be, does she have a decent reason to think so, whether or not she is correct?

I'm not sure I am in a position to answer that question, BTW. I am not a Harry Potter fan, nor have I closely followed Rowling's comments on the topic.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

It’s not. It’s a theory at best. 

:deep sigh:… “Theories” are ideas well supported by repeated observation and/or experiment.  I don’t think, based on the context you are using it, you are using the word “theory” correctly. 

That said it may be a well founded “theory” at this point.  I honestly don’t know.

[DaveSumm]

54 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I do think she is very very mildly transphobic. But I think the venom directed towards her compared to what she has actually said and done is fucking insane. 

I think this is probably where I’d land too. She has a fixation on keeping female only spaces that doesn’t really stack with the evidence, but it’s an understandable one for her personally.

16 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Here's a second one for free JK Rowling reports three protesters outside her residence for criminal activity, believing that they are trying to reveal her home address - despite that address being so well known it is a tourist stop. 

I don't know how literal you want to get, but this is literally being afraid of trans people

I’d be interested to see the original tweet of this to gauge what their intent was, but if they were intending to dox her, that isn’t OK just because it turned out it wasn’t necessary. I think she’s entitled to feel fear at protestors attempting to do that, if that is the case.

[TrackerNeil]

2 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I mean, yes? There are very specific differences across male and female brains in the aggregate. To be clear this doesn't mean "good at math" or any of that bullshit.

Here's a study I found in 12 seconds of searching 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/

I think that's a different question, but probably the biggest one is advocating that trans women do not belong in spaces that cis women have. I don't think I need to explain why that would be harmful.

In the same 12 seconds, I found an article that said there's no meaningful difference. I'm going to leave that discussion to those more qualified to have it. And that definitely does not include me.

In terms of spaces, I suppose that raises the question of why societies have women-only spaces in the first place. I think the evaluation of harm done by Rowling's opinion--if one believes she is doing harm--is going to depend at least partly on the answer to that question.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

You mean the currently prevailing theory in most Western cultures, especially after much advocacy by certain trans rights activists. Third Sex/Gender is a very old concept, found in South Asia, certain Native American cultures, and elsewhere.

I don't need a lecture on how gender is conceived, or how it relates to biological sex. The point is that any model of gender is a model; it simplifies things in a way that's supposed to be useful to society. No model is absolutely perfect, and the usefulness of a model can depend on who's using it and how.

Okay, but you get that trans people are not advocating to be a third gender, right? And that this has nothing to do with gender fluidity or anything like that?

These are two very different concepts. 

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

My main problem with the current "gender is a spectrum/social construct" model

Which again, we aren't talking about

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

 

I agree that we shouldn't have rigid gender expectations, but most people on this earth live their lives pretty snugly tucked into the norms for men vs women. The exceptions should by no means be demonized, just as left-handed people should not. But those rare exceptions prove the lager rule. And PR campaigns trans rights would be so much easier if activists gave up their Utopian ideals and simply went with what most people would understand.

Do left handed people have hands? 

I mean, by your standards the easiest thing is to say there are two genders. Right? Trans people aren't transitioning to gender fluid statuses - they are identifying as men or women. What does that have to do with gender fluidity?

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I guess the next question would be, does she have a decent reason to think so, whether or not she is correct?

I'm not sure I am in a position to answer that question, BTW. I am not a Harry Potter fan, nor have I closely followed Rowling's comments on the topic.

There is a bounty of information available, some of which has been linked in this thread about her behavior that, in my opinion, is transphobic.  Whether or not she has a decent reason to think the way she doesn't seem very relevant to me.

 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

 

I’d be interested to see the original tweet of this to gauge what their intent was, but if they were intending to dox her, that isn’t OK just because it turned out it wasn’t necessary. I think she’s entitled to feel fear at protestors attempting to do that, if that is the case.

Per the investigation they were not intending to doxx her even if they could - they were intending to protest at her well known public residence. I believe they didn't even know she was there.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Okay, but you get that trans people are not advocating to be a third gender, right? And that this has nothing to do with gender fluidity or anything like that?

If you think that I did say that trans people are advocating for third gender, please go back and reread more carefully. I am not saying that. I'm saying that they should do that, or at least allow others like Rowling to adopt a model like that. Because more people would understand it and be amenable to the trans cause.

2 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Do left handed people have hands? 

I mean, by your standards the easiest thing is to say there are two genders. Right? Trans people aren't transitioning to gender fluid statuses - they are identifying as men or women. What does that have to do with gender fluidity?

I really don't understand what you're arguing here, but perhaps it results from your confusion about what I was saying about the Third Sex. If you care to try to reword it, I'll take another shot.