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Do you think it’s possible that Nettles was Daemon’s bastard daughter?


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We know that for all his flaws, Daemon loved his and Rhaenyra’s children. It’s implied he was especially close to his daughter Baela. But before his marriage to Rhaenyra he was known to entertain the company of whores. And she was able to tame a dragon, so it’s very possible she had Targareyn blood.

Dipping into the show a bit, it paints Daemon not truly as a power hungry, ambitious man. But more as a man who would do absolutely anything for his family. I tend to aline with that interpretation of his character. So it stands to reason if he found out Nettles was his daughter, fathered when he was younger, he’d desire to actually father her, and get close. Which could lead to the rumors that he had an affair with Nettles when it reality he was spending time with his daughter.

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Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I like the story better if Nettles is just someone with no connections to any Targaryens. Goes to show they aren't as special as they claim.

But it's a magical fantasy. They are special. however, considering all the madness and suicides in their family, it's up to debate whether that's a curse or a blessing.

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47 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

We know that for all his flaws, Daemon loved his and Rhaenyra’s children. It’s implied he was especially close to his daughter Baela. But before his marriage to Rhaenyra he was known to entertain the company of whores. And she was able to tame a dragon, so it’s very possible she had Targareyn blood.

Dipping into the show a bit, it paints Daemon not truly as a power hungry, ambitious man. But more as a man who would do absolutely anything for his family. I tend to aline with that interpretation of his character. So it stands to reason if he found out Nettles was his daughter, fathered when he was younger, he’d desire to actually father her, and get close. Which could lead to the rumors that he had an affair with Nettles when it reality he was spending time with his daughter.

I created a thread on this exact subject a couple of months ago.

I know there are the iconoclasts who want to separate Targaryen ancestry from ability to ride dragons, but I don't think that's the direction the story or setting is going in. And if that argument is set to one side (i.e. we take as read that Targaryen or at least Valyrian ancestry* is necessary to ride dragons) then I think the idea that Daemon believed Nettles was his daughter (whether or not she actually was) is the most plausible explanation available for their relationship.

*Addam of Hull is a curiosity. He's obviously a Velaryon scion, and for various reasons Corlys seems most likely to be his father. But Corlys is from a line of Velaryons who didn't previously ride dragons. Laenor (Addam's ostensible father) does but that's because his mother is a Targaryen.

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On 4/1/2023 at 8:33 PM, King Maegor the Cool said:

We know that for all his flaws, Daemon loved his and Rhaenyra’s children. It’s implied he was especially close to his daughter Baela.

That is show only. In FaB Daemon shows no interest in any of his daughters ... nor his sons, for that matter. The only time he is mentioned in relation to the girls is when the castallan of Dragonstone writes to Daemon to tell him about Baela's allegedly reckless behavior. And we don't know anything about a reply.

On 4/1/2023 at 8:33 PM, King Maegor the Cool said:

Dipping into the show a bit, it paints Daemon not truly as a power hungry, ambitious man. But more as a man who would do absolutely anything for his family. I tend to aline with that interpretation of his character. So it stands to reason if he found out Nettles was his daughter, fathered when he was younger, he’d desire to actually father her, and get close. Which could lead to the rumors that he had an affair with Nettles when it reality he was spending time with his daughter.

Indeed, the gist behind that theory is both that there is no actual confirmation that these two were lovers ... merely that they were very close. And it would feel less weird to have him connect with a lost daughter and then being hurt about it when the two other women in his life - Mysaria and Rhaenyra - intend to kill the girl.

There are people who try to interpret the Maidenpool reports about Daemon-Nettles as him 'courting' her. But to me this feels more like an older man trying to make up for the fact that he abandoned his daughter and to slowly prepare her to take her rightful place in the royal family.

On 4/1/2023 at 9:26 PM, Alester Florent said:

I know there are the iconoclasts who want to separate Targaryen ancestry from ability to ride dragons, but I don't think that's the direction the story or setting is going in. And if that argument is set to one side (i.e. we take as read that Targaryen or at least Valyrian ancestry* is necessary to ride dragons) then I think the idea that Daemon believed Nettles was his daughter (whether or not she actually was) is the most plausible explanation available for their relationship.

That is indeed not very likely, and I always felt it very odd that people focused so much on Nettles in this context. Hugh and Ulf's Targaryen ancestry is also unclear, yet all the successful dragonseeds seem to be Dragonstonian or Driftmarkian by birth - Ulf is a man-at-arms in service at the citadel of Dragonstone, Hugh the bastard of a blacksmith from Dragonstone, the Hull boys are from Hull on Driftmark, and Nettles the daughter of a dockside whore from Driftmark.

Valyrian looks are confirmed for Ulf and the Hull boys. But aside from the Hull boys the ancestry of neither is actually investigated or revealed. The fact that we know where they are from makes it not unlikely that all of them have multiple Targaryens or even other dragonlords among their ancestors. Aenar Targaryen and the Velaryons didn't come to the Narrow Sea alone. They brought their people with them.

On 4/1/2023 at 9:26 PM, Alester Florent said:

*Addam of Hull is a curiosity. He's obviously a Velaryon scion, and for various reasons Corlys seems most likely to be his father. But Corlys is from a line of Velaryons who didn't previously ride dragons. Laenor (Addam's ostensible father) does but that's because his mother is a Targaryen.

That is not that much of an issue since we do know that Corlys most likely does have a Targaryen ancestor ... although not among his more recent ancestors. We know that the Conqueror's mother, Valaena Velaryon, did have a Targaryen mother herself, and since it stands to reason that Valaena was the daughter or sister to the Lord of Driftmark at the time, it would make sense for Corlys to be descended from the very same Targaryen woman. That would make his great-great-great-grandmother a Targaryen if we assume that Valaena Velaryon was a sister of the first Daemon Velaryon - who was grandfather to the second Daemon Velaryon who was Corlys' grandfather. There is also the possibility that some of Corlys Velaryon's ancestors married Velaryon cousins. Corlys' father Corwyn, say, could have been married to a first cousin. That would have strengthened that element.

Also, of course, there is a chance that Marilda of Hull had some Velaryon or Targaryen blood due to the sleeping around of some earlier Velaryon or Targaryen prince.

Finally, though, the fact that Corlys' most recent Targaryen ancestor was his great-great-great-grandmother could explain why only one of the Hull boys successfully mounted a dragon. Their blood could have been so diluted there that only one of Marilda's boys retained the ability, the other didn't.

If Marilda had no Targaryen blood on her side, both Quentyn Martell and Brown Ben Plumm should have more Targaryen blood than Addam and Alyn. Although, of course, we cannot assume the Velaryons don't have multiple Targaryens or other dragonlords among their ancestors. We have no clue how many Targaryens married into House Velaryon in the century before the Conquest, nor do we know if and how many dragonlord women from other dragonlord families intermarried with the Velaryons prior to the Doom. The fact that the Velaryons themselves were never dragonlords can have more to do with the fact that they were never given/could never acquire dragons and less with them lacking the ability to mount them.

After all, we do know that the Old Blood of Volantis are the cousins and kin to the dragonlords during the Rhoynish Wars - and that means that the Volantene ruling class are effectively cadet branches of dragonlord houses or other Valyrian nobility who at least have family ties to the dragonlords. The Velaryons certainly could be a similar case.

Edited by Lord Varys
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On 4/1/2023 at 11:33 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

We know that for all his flaws, Daemon loved his and Rhaenyra’s children. It’s implied he was especially close to his daughter Baela. But before his marriage to Rhaenyra he was known to entertain the company of whores. And she was able to tame a dragon, so it’s very possible she had Targareyn blood.

I don't think she was Daemon's bastard daughter; I always thought she was a great grandaughter of Saera. 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not that much of an issue since we do know that Corlys most likely does have a Targaryen ancestor ... although not among his more recent ancestors. We know that the Conqueror's mother, Valaena Velaryon, did have a Targaryen mother herself, and since it stands to reason that Valaena was the daughter or sister to the Lord of Driftmark at the time, it would make sense for Corlys to be descended from the very same Targaryen woman. That would make his great-great-great-grandmother a Targaryen if we assume that Valaena Velaryon was a sister of the first Daemon Velaryon - who was grandfather to the second Daemon Velaryon who was Corlys' grandfather. There is also the possibility that some of Corlys' Velaryon ancestors married Velaryon cousins. Corlys' father Corwyn, say, could have been married to a first cousin. That would have strengthened that element.

I do think that, while Corlys is probably Alyn and Addam's dad, the dragonriding is strange. Corlys, assuming Valaena and Daemon were siblings, which seems most likely, is 3.125% Targaryen. If that allows you to be a dragonrider, a large chunk of modern-day Westeros would be potential dragonriders (Plumm, Penrose, Baratheon, Martell, Rennifer Longwaters, all Velaryons). And wouldn't Corlys have been able to dragonride had he been sufficiently Targaryen? It just seems unlikely that Marilda had dragonriding children with Corlys. Maybe Alyn and Addam's dad was indeed Laenor, who was bi for her idk. 

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27 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I don't think she was Daemon's bastard daughter; I always thought she was a great grandaughter of Saera. 

I do think that, while Corlys is probably Alyn and Addam's dad, the dragonriding is strange. Corlys, assuming Valaena and Daemon were siblings, which seems most likely, is 3.125% Targaryen. If that allows you to be a dragonrider, a large chunk of modern-day Westeros would be potential dragonriders (Plumm, Penrose, Baratheon, Martell, Rennifer Longwaters, all Velaryons). And wouldn't Corlys have been able to dragonride had he been sufficiently Targaryen? It just seems unlikely that Marilda had dragonriding children with Corlys. Maybe Alyn and Addam's dad was indeed Laenor, who was bi for her idk. 

Well Daenerys only has around 10% Valyrian blood, and that's including injections from the Rogares and Velaryons, assuming in each case that the relevant spouses were themselves 100% Valyrian (which they probably weren't). In terms of Targaryen blood she's at around 2.5% (assuming that the Targs before Aerion were pureblood dragonrider/Targ).

It seems to be a case of fantasy genetics, rather like the Baratheon hair.

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2 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I don't think she was Daemon's bastard daughter; I always thought she was a great grandaughter of Saera.

While there is a chance that Saera's sons (and whatever daughters she may have also had) left some kind of impact in the world, so far there in no indication that any of them remained in Westeros.

I personally like to believe that Grand Maester Gerardys could have been one of the sons who showed up for the Great Council. They would have all been pretty young, and only one was the son of a triarch, so one of the others may have lacked the funds to return to Volantis, being stranded in Oldtown and deciding to join the Citadel. The name Gerardys does have a Valyrian sound to it and could easily enough be the name given a son of Saera's by his father.

A real connection to Saera could actually be Mysaria. She is from Lys and could be Saera's firstborn child, fathered during her voyage to Lys and immediately handed over to some brothel after Saera gave birth to her. I kind of started to think along those lines when George actually wastes lines to describe Mysaria's wardrobe when she shows up at court and accuses Nettles of adultery. She dresses in Targaryen red-and-black! Which is odd in this world as ladies and retainers do go about in their own colors, depict their own sigils on their armor and clothes. There are no instances were squires and pages and household knights were the colors of their lords (or the king). Even the Kingsguard do not. They might carry the king's standard in battle, might carry the royal banner, but that's it, basically.

So why on earth would this brother lady and informal Mistress of Whisperers walk around in Targaryen colors at Rhaenyra's court? That is quite odd. And this is literally the only case where such clothes are described. We never hear anything about the clothes of, say, Larys Strong or Otto Hightower or even most Targaryens during the Dance (Rhaenyra's armor is described a little bit, I recall).

Such a connection could also help why Mysaria would turn against Rhaenyra and Daemon both.

Of course, Nettles could also be effectively Daemon and Viserys' niece, the daughter of a bastard Prince Baelon fathered on some whore in the wake of the death of Alyssa. Or she could be a granddaughter of Prince Aemon. Just as Hugh and Ulf both could be secret grandsons of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Perhaps Hugh wasn't some blacksmith's bastard, after all? And Ulf White could easily enough be Baelon's natural son.

2 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I do think that, while Corlys is probably Alyn and Addam's dad, the dragonriding is strange. Corlys, assuming Valaena and Daemon were siblings, which seems most likely, is 3.125% Targaryen. If that allows you to be a dragonrider, a large chunk of modern-day Westeros would be potential dragonriders (Plumm, Penrose, Baratheon, Martell, Rennifer Longwaters, all Velaryons). And wouldn't Corlys have been able to dragonride had he been sufficiently Targaryen? It just seems unlikely that Marilda had dragonriding children with Corlys. Maybe Alyn and Addam's dad was indeed Laenor, who was bi for her idk. 

As I said, the Velaryons could have both more dragonlord/Targaryen ancestors from the Dragonstone and Valyrian times - and they could have preserved the their dragon blood to a larger degree than any of the latter Targaryen cadet branches did. I did suggest cousin marriages for Corys' parents and perhaps even his grandparents (the second Daemon could also have had a Velaryon wife). Alarra Massey, the wife of Aethan Velaryon and mother of Daemon and Alyssa, could also be a Velaryon cousin through the female line.

I mean, we do have to concede and accept that the Velaryons retained most of the Valyrian traits to the present without doing the incest. So cousin marriages and general marriages within the Valyrian sphere - Celtigars, Masseys, other houses of the Crownlands the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigar directly or indirectly intermarried with in the past - would be the way to go. For instance, I entertain the idea that the guy at the Great Council who put forth his claim to the throne because he was descended from a daughter of Gaemon the Glorious might have been Lord Harte, the father of Hazel Harte who would become the mother of Daenaera Velaryon - because Daenaera Velaryon does have such stunning Valyrian looks despite being from an obscure cadet branch of the house whose members might not exactly be in the position to arrange very prestigious marriages. If Daenaera inherited the blood of the dragon from both sides, however diluted, her looks might make a tidbit more sense (of course, it could just be a lucky accident).

There is still a chance that Addam and Alyn are Laenor's sons - Marilda's description could make her the kind of woman a homosexual man might want to play around with. I pretty much expect the show to go with them being Laenor's boys because it seems unlikely they are going to want to make Corlys into a guy who cheated on Rhaenys. But it seems to be more likely, for the books, that Corlys was indeed their dad.

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Well Daenerys only has around 10% Valyrian blood, and that's including injections from the Rogares and Velaryons, assuming in each case that the relevant spouses were themselves 100% Valyrian (which they probably weren't). In terms of Targaryen blood she's at around 2.5% (assuming that the Targs before Aerion were pureblood dragonrider/Targ).

It seems to be a case of fantasy genetics, rather like the Baratheon hair.

We cannot really go with 100% for Aegon's father since the sibling incest was only viewed as the ideal, not something they always did. Aerion himself married a first or second cousin in Valaena Velaryon. And of the Dragonstonian Targaryens only Gaemon-Daenys and Aegon-Elaena are confirmed sibling couples. The others could have married aunts, cousins, or even outside the family. TWoIaF talks about the Targaryens looking to the Lyseni for brides and mistresses ... yet the only one we have is Larra Rogare, so chances are that at least one Lysene woman married a Targaryen Lord of Dragonstone - or at least a son who then didn't succeed to the lordship.

But, of course, because of the simple plot of the book - which has Dany and Jon at the center of attention - the Daeron-Maekar-Egg branch of the family did retain certain qualities (which might have then further preserved and focused by the double sibling incest of Jaehaerys-Shaera and Aerys-Rhaella) the Baratheon, Martell, Penrose, Plumm, Tarth, etc. branches might not have.

In general, the idea also seems to be that sibling incest and marriages among close kin being the rule rather than the exception is enough to preserve the dragonrider talent. The point never was to basically create a bloodline where, say, a dozen or a score of generations always married their siblings. Even back in Valyria there might be a considerable number of cousin marriages, especially since the dragonlord houses must have been mostly very large families with different branches which needed to be kept to together. After all, we know there were hundreds (thousands, according to HotD) dragons in Valyria, and only twoscore of dragonlord families. They couldn't have controlled those dragons if each family had as many members as the Targaryens had most of the time.

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Addendum:

The black hair issue aside (which, as Rhaenys' children prove, isn't that much of an issue), there is also a chance that a hypothetical daughter of Argella and Orys ended up marrying the second Daemon Velaryon. That could have also strengthened the Targaryen bloodline of the Velaryons if we go with Orys as bastard of Lord Aerion.

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On 4/1/2023 at 3:26 PM, Alester Florent said:

I created a thread on this exact subject a couple of months ago.

I know there are the iconoclasts who want to separate Targaryen ancestry from ability to ride dragons, but I don't think that's the direction the story or setting is going in. And if that argument is set to one side (i.e. we take as read that Targaryen or at least Valyrian ancestry* is necessary to ride dragons) then I think the idea that Daemon believed Nettles was his daughter (whether or not she actually was) is the most plausible explanation available for their relationship.

*Addam of Hull is a curiosity. He's obviously a Velaryon scion, and for various reasons Corlys seems most likely to be his father. But Corlys is from a line of Velaryons who didn't previously ride dragons. Laenor (Addam's ostensible father) does but that's because his mother is a Targaryen.

Link to the thread?

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On 4/1/2023 at 8:55 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I like the story better if Nettles is just someone with no connections to any Targaryens. Goes to show they aren't as special as they claim.

 

I agree. I also think that it is a possible scenario that Tyrion will tame a dragon in AWOW and the Nettles story would explain how he can do it without Targaryen heritage.

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3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I agree. I also think that it is a possible scenario that Tyrion will tame a dragon in AWOW and the Nettles story would explain how he can do it without Targaryen heritage.

With Tyrion, though, chances are pretty high that he turns out to be the secret bastard son of Aerys II. Which certainly will give him much greater motivational layer for future plot developments than 'I've issues with my dead dad and estranged siblings and use that dragon queen I've no connection to get my dead dad's cave castle'.

A dragon plus Targaryen ancestry turns Tyrion into a possible pretender to the throne. A power in his own right in the big game. His kind of silly attempts to style himself as a pretender to Casterly Rock are ludicrous. Not only is he a convicted kingslayer (although he didn't do the deed) he actually murdered his own father, the previous Lord of Casterly Rock, in cold blood and people won't just forget that. If Tyrion were to just claim a dragon without having any real connections to the Targaryens he would likely be quickly in a worse position that Ulf and Hugh (whose Targaryen ancestry was never specified nor were they adopted into the family). After all, Dany's dragons are still pretty small and Tyrion is an ugly dwarf and accursed criminal.

The idea that he could win and retain anyone's trust without a real connection to Dany is not convincing.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Nettles could also be effectively Daemon and Viserys' niece, the daughter of a bastard Prince Baelon fathered on some whore in the wake of the death of Alyssa. Or she could be a granddaughter of Prince Aemon. Just as Hugh and Ulf both could be secret grandsons of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Perhaps Hugh wasn't some blacksmith's bastard, after all? And Ulf White could easily enough be Baelon's natural son.

I like the Baelon or Aemon idea a lot actually: and I'd never thought about Gerardys being Saera's before. 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, we do have to concede and accept that the Velaryons retained most of the Valyrian traits to the present without doing the incest. So cousin marriages and general marriages within the Valyrian sphere - Celtigars, Masseys, other houses of the Crownlands the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigar directly or indirectly intermarried with in the past - would be the way to go. For instance, I entertain the idea that the guy at the Great Council who put forth his claim to the throne because he was descended from a daughter of Gaemon the Glorious might have been Lord Harte, the father of Hazel Harte who would become the mother of Daenaera Velaryon - because Daenaera Velaryon does have such stunning Valyrian looks despite being from an obscure cadet branch of the house whose members might not exactly be in the position to arrange very prestigious marriages. If Daenaera inherited the blood of the dragon from both sides, however diluted, her looks might make a tidbit more sense (of course, it could just be a lucky accident).

It's just a dragonriding thing: why can't the Velaryons or Celtigars dragonride but the Targs can? The Harte's being Valyrian makes a lot of sense though. 

To be honest, I just want Rennifer Longwaters to be a Rhaenys-descendant and I hope-theorize that Laenor actually was Alyn's father. But, in the books, it probably was Corlys. 

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52 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

It's just a dragonriding thing: why can't the Velaryons or Celtigars dragonride but the Targs can? The Harte's being Valyrian makes a lot of sense though.

Dragonriding is limited not only by capability, but privilege as well. And it was a privilege held for Targaryens only, until the Dance. 

Orys Baratehon was brother and bestie to Aegon I. Never rode a dragon, altough he very much had the capability to it. Not the privilege.

If dragonriding was o be limited by not only valyrian blood, but a certain descendancy from a given person ("you have to be the descendant of to be able to ride this dragon, valyrian blood is not enough"), that would undermine the worth of a dragonseed. Which is none. There were tons of them, and nobody cared about it, since it wasn't the blood what made the right to dragons.

It was the status.

And Laenor and Laena, and Rhaenyra's Velaryon children as well only became dragonriders (despite being Velaryons) because the difference between the two houses became practically nonexistent.

 

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While I like the theory, isn’t there a bit of an issue with the timeline?

According to the wiki, Nettles was born in 113 on Driftmark.   Between 111 and 115 Daemon was supposed to be exiled and that’s supposed to be the time period he is fighting his war in the Stepstones.

Isn’t it more likely that Corlys was Nettles’ father?  Especially if he’s actually the father of Alyn and Addam as many suspect.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I like the theory, isn’t there a bit of an issue with the timeline?

According to the wiki, Nettles was born in 113 on Driftmark.   Between 111 and 115 Daemon was supposed to be exiled and that’s supposed to be the time period he is fighting his war in the Stepstones.

Isn’t it more likely that Corlys was Nettles’ father?  Especially if he’s actually the father of Alyn and Addam as many suspect.

His "exile" was mostly on Dragonstone, so he was still kicking about Blackwater Bay for some of that period and was presumably spending some time in Driftmark since he was plotting with Corlys. And if he got a girl pregnant while campaigning on the Stepstones it's conceivable that he sent her back "home" on a Velaryon ship and she ended up in Driftmark.

Corlys has the advantage of greater proximity, but that then leaves the questions about Daemon's peculiarly paternalistic behaviour towards Nettles, which he doesn't display towards the other dragonseeds.

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1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I like the Baelon or Aemon idea a lot actually: and I'd never thought about Gerardys being Saera's before. 

Thinking about it - if HotD includes Aemon & Baelon in the mix there, it could be a reason why they might be doing flashbacks to a time when they were still around. After all, the show should explore the origins of all the dragonseeds in considerable detail.

1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

It's just a dragonriding thing: why can't the Velaryons or Celtigars dragonride but the Targs can? The Harte's being Valyrian makes a lot of sense though.

Not saying the houses as such is Valyrian, rather that they might have Targaryen and Velaryon ancestors.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Dragonriding is limited not only by capability, but privilege as well. And it was a privilege held for Targaryens only, until the Dance.

Not until the Dance, but until Laena and Laenor were given access to dragons. And that likely had to do with the fact that they were of the most senior branch of the family, with very strong claims to the throne.

But, of course, we would assume that the Velaryons (Aethan, Daemon II, Alyssa) as well as Orys Baratheon and his son(s) didn't get dragons because it was the privilege of the Targaryens do it. Just as they were only given to trueborn members of the family until the call for dragonseeds went out.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I like the theory, isn’t there a bit of an issue with the timeline?

According to the wiki, Nettles was born in 113 on Driftmark.   Between 111 and 115 Daemon was supposed to be exiled and that’s supposed to be the time period he is fighting his war in the Stepstones.

Nope, Daemon goes into exile in 112 AC. He returns to KL in 111 AC and then remains there for half a year into 112 AC. He would have likely returned to the Stepstones via Driftmark, even if he flew down on Caraxes, since he would call on Corlys to send him more men, ships, provisions, etc. So it could work that way.

But Nettles' mother being a whore certainly would allow her to move around. Even more so since Nettles is described as brown, which could indicate that her mother was not born on Driftmark, meaning Daemon could have chanced on her on the Stepstones and she got to Driftmark aboard of one of the Velaryon ships. I mean, we can be pretty sure Daemon slept around a lot on the Stepstones considering he was 'king' and all that.

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