Shade of the Evening Post 1st Edition

[Curled Finger]

It's clear the populous is suffering fatigue here.  Our first edition is offered in hopes of stirring some interest in conversation. 

Sources far from the source indicate the entire meeting between Shae and Tyrion Lannister was a set up.  Would Bronn be bought off by a better Lannister?  Yah, power resides where men believes it resides and what moron would bank Tyrion over Tywin?  Bronn is not an idiot.  Naturally Tyrion gets all sweaty thinking with his army, personal guard whatever the clansmen are, his own private gun, an appointment to act in his father's stead as hand of the king and a prohibition his father damned well knows Tyrion will fail to observe.  True love is Tyrion's weakness.  Tywin has set this thing up to test Tyrion's worthiness for positions in these grand plans he has for House Big L.  

This chapter in ACOK is exactly where Varys tells Tyrion the riddle about power.  Shae doesn't have a lot of power in this, but she does have sway over Tyrion and seems to get her way even if circuitously, every time.  Varys all but sits on her to keep her in place.  Shae shouldn't have been in the city at all by the time Stannis much less Tywin shows up.  Next thing anyone knows she gives this skewered testimony against Tyrion and she knows his life is at stake.  Then she's naked wearing Tywin's Hand necklace--eww--in Tywin's bed.  Eww.  That all amounts to really convenient for Tywin if his intention was to get rid of Tyrion all along ala The Wall.   Our editors want to know if you believe the conspiracy accusations being hurled at Bronn of the Blackwater and the late Lord Hand Tywin Lannister?    

[Nevets]

46 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's clear the populous is suffering fatigue here.  Our first edition is offered in hopes of stirring some interest in conversation. 

Sources far from the source indicate the entire meeting between Shae and Tyrion Lannister was a set up.  Would Bronn be bought off by a better Lannister?  Yah, power resides where men believes it resides and what moron would bank Tyrion over Tywin?  Bronn is not an idiot.  Naturally Tyrion gets all sweaty thinking with his army, personal guard whatever the clansmen are, his own private gun, an appointment to act in his father's stead as hand of the king and a prohibition his father damned well knows Tyrion will fail to observe.  True love is Tyrion's weakness.  Tywin has set this thing up to test Tyrion's worthiness for positions in these grand plans he has for House Big L.  

This chapter in ACOK is exactly where Varys tells Tyrion the riddle about power.  Shae doesn't have a lot of power in this, but she does have sway over Tyrion and seems to get her way even if circuitously, every time.  Varys all but sits on her to keep her in place.  Shae shouldn't have been in the city at all by the time Stannis much less Tywin shows up.  Next thing anyone knows she gives this skewered testimony against Tyrion and she knows his life is at stake.  Then she's naked wearing Tywin's Hand necklace--eww--in Tywin's bed.  Eww.  That all amounts to really convenient for Tywin if his intention was to get rid of Tyrion all along ala The Wall.   Our editors want to know if you believe the conspiracy accusations being hurled at Bronn of the Blackwater and the late Lord Hand Tywin Lannister?    

I don't see any likelihood of her being a spy for Tywin, at least initially.  She wasn't even in the Red Keep initially.  She is kept away at Tyrion's request until the Blackwater and that was because Tyrion felt the Red Keep was safer than the alternatives.  Tyrion being physically separate from her would be a logical consequence of Tywin's threat, which was repeated upon Tywin's arrival in Kings Landing.  Being physically separate means she has no access to what he's doing.

I think she may have become a spy later on, probably after Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  She may have been a source as to his lack of sex with Sansa.

Bronn is actually a better candidate to be a spy.  He would know who Tyrion met and some idea of where he went.  Even Podrick works better, as he was often sent on errands.  For the record, I don't believe Podrick has any secrets.  If anyone was spying, my money would be on Bronn.  But I doubt that too.

 

[LongRider]

Shae is set up as Sansa's lady in waiting and what better position to be a spy than that?  Why not sell secrets while in the Red Keep, a working girl has to keep a look out for herself.  Could Bronn also be a spy?  Does a duck quack? Of course a mercenary could be a spy!  Plenty of secrets to go around, no doubt.  

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by LongRider

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

  If anyone was spying, my money would be on Bronn.  But I doubt that too.

 

The conveniences are leaning into my spidey reporter senses here.  I didn't even think spying so much as this clown can't even pass this stupid test sort of thing.  I think Tywin was putting pawns in their places and he was taking measure of Tyrion to see if he was ready to play ball or not.   Then again, Tyrion doesn't seem to have put it together at all either.  Of course he hasn't been reliable for an entire book...Thanks a million for weighing in.  

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

Shae is set up as Sansa's lady in waiting and what better position to be a spy than that?  Why not sell secrets while in the Red Keep, a working girl has to keep a look out for herself.  Could Bronn also be a spy?  Does a duck quack? Of course, a mercenary could be a spy!  Plenty of secrets to go around, no doubt.  

Ah, thank you concerned citizen!  While conducting field background interviews we didn't find anything suspicious in the actual meeting between Tyrion Lannister and Ser Bronn.  It is not until Lannister makes it to his father's war camp with troops of his own that things get complicated for Tyrion, with Shae and holding a place in the vanguard.  Tywin pushes Tyrion as far as he possibly can.  I think he pulled this to test the mettle of the men with Tyrion as well as Tyrion himself.   This is a tactically shitty place to put a handicapped person who is untrained in combat.  Did you find Varys' interactions with Shae suspicious?  

[LongRider]

Varys's interactions with any one is always suspicious.  He wants to know if Tyrion and Sansa are 'doin' it' and Shae does to.  Varys to use that knowledge to his advantage, and Shae wants to know so she can decide whether or not to poison Sansa.  As for Tywin putting Tyrion in the van, of course, he wanted his son to a have all the glory.  

[Nevets]

22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The conveniences are leaning into my spidey reporter senses here.  I didn't even think spying so much as this clown can't even pass this stupid test sort of thing.  I think Tywin was putting pawns in their places and he was taking measure of Tyrion to see if he was ready to play ball or not.   Then again, Tyrion doesn't seem to have put it together at all either.  Of course he hasn't been reliable for an entire book...Thanks a million for weighing in.  

If Tywin wanted to test Tyrion's mettle, he's had ample opportunity.  He could have foisted him on Robert with one job or another.  He could have made him Lord of Lannisport or some other post in the Westlands.  The fact is, he appointed Tyrion Hand because he was otherwise out of options.  He knows Tyrion is reasonably intelligent, loyal to the family at least, and can probably do the job he is assigned.  As to whether Tyrion is competently running things, I'm sure he has plenty of sources on that, Pycelle for one.  I can't think of any use he could find for Shae at that point.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

If Tywin wanted to test Tyrion's mettle, he's had ample opportunity.  He could have foisted him on Robert with one job or another.  He could have made him Lord of Lannisport or some other post in the Westlands.  The fact is, he appointed Tyrion Hand because he was otherwise out of options.  He knows Tyrion is reasonably intelligent, loyal to the family at least, and can probably do the job he is assigned.  As to whether Tyrion is competently running things, I'm sure he has plenty of sources on that, Pycelle for one.  I can't think of any use he could find for Shae at that point.

I was thinking simple proof of defiance so he can deny Tyrion some reward he thinks he worthy of him and force him to do something he doesn't want to such as marry Sansa Stark.  Not that I think that was on the table at the time, but something equally unpalatable to Tyrion.   

[Nevets]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

I was thinking simple proof of defiance so he can deny Tyrion some reward he thinks he worthy of him and force him to do something he doesn't want to such as marry Sansa Stark.  Not that I think that was on the table at the time, but something equally unpalatable to Tyrion.   

He's been treating Tyrion like shit ever since his "marriage" to Tysha.  Tywin doesn't need an excuse to treat Tyrion badly or deny him anything.  He's been doing it for years.  In this case, I think there's nothing major hidden.  Though I do think Shae started reporting to Tywin around the time of Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Nevets said:

He's been treating Tyrion like shit ever since his "marriage" to Tysha.  Tywin doesn't need an excuse to treat Tyrion badly or deny him anything.  He's been doing it for years.  In this case, I think there's nothing major hidden.  Though I do think Shae started reporting to Tywin around the time of Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.

I take comfort in you thinking there is something hinky here.  My eyes used to cross at all the Shae sympathy.  I always got bad vibes with that one and I am forever waiting for Bronn to stab someone in the back.  As I read my own replies to you I am presupposing things that actually happen.  Tywin is one hard bastard.  I am not as hard on Robb for falling for Jeyne as I am on Tyrion for this particular indiscretion with his heart.  He is supposed to be smarter than this thing with Shae.  He knows it.  

[GZ Bloodraven]

There is no way that Tywin didn't vet his camp followers: the easiest way to get spies in an army is via camp followers. And one goes missing? He knows. I don't know if he had Shae on his payroll, but he was aware of what Tyrion was doing.

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

There is no way that Tywin didn't vet his camp followers: the easiest way to get spies in an army is via camp followers. And one goes missing? He knows. I don't know if he had Shae on his payroll, but he was aware of what Tyrion was doing.

Of course he knew.  He told Tyrion, "you will not take the whore to court", and I don't think it was a stab in the dark.  I doubt he attempted to make use of her until she showed up as Sansa's maid, and therefore part of Tyrion's household.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Nevets

[Alester Florent]

I'm inclined to believe that Bronn is broadly speaking loyal to Tyrion. Obviously his loyalty comes at a price, and there is a limit to what he's prepared to do, but it is in part because of that - and that he's open about his loyalty being transactional - that I think Tyrion can trust him. But I think there's also a genuine affection there: he wouldn't have stepped up to help him in the first place otherwise.

Even when he does eventually abandon Tyrion, when Tywin and/or Cersei bribe him off the board (two of the few people in Westeros who could outbid Tyrion in such a situation), they only secure his neutrality, and they don't get him to turn on Tyrion altogether. Bronn is probably in a position to incriminate Tyrion more than anyone, but he doesn't give evidence against him at trial. And he is very open about this with Tyrion, even going to his cell to talk it through with him.

Compare this to Shae with all her "giant of Lannister" nonsense, and her presentation of their relationship as something real - very good at her job, yes - but also encouraging Tyrion to forget that ultimately she's in his employ as much as Bronn is, and thereby lowering his guard, ultimately sticking the knife in at his trial. Even when he finally confronts her, she resorts to her feminine wiles rather than being honest enough to point out that their relationship was always commercial and Tywin simply outbid him. Makes me wonder if she had been Tywin's creature, if not all along, then at least longer than it appears.

[Curled Finger]

21 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Makes me wonder if she had been Tywin's creature, if not all along, then at least longer than it appears.

The editors love that term, Tywin's creature.  Jeyne Westerling was Tywin's creature in the end.  Lord Lannister had deep pockets and a long reach.  

[LongRider]

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The editors love that term, Tywin's creature.  Jeyne Westerling was Tywin's creature in the end.  Lord Lannister had deep pockets and a long reach.  

And Littlefinger will sell anything to make some coin.

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, LongRider said:

And Littlefinger will sell anything to make some coin.

Whoa!  Are you implying Shae was previously associated with Lord Baelish?  

[Hugorfonics]

23 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Our editors want to know if you believe the conspiracy accusations being hurled at Bronn of the Blackwater and the late Lord Hand Tywin Lannister?    

Nah

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I always got bad vibes with that one

She's just a teenager. 18 or 19, practically a kid. Ran away from her rapist father, yeesh, fucking Westeros, and like any homeless 18 year old girl, she followed the army. Tywins war was like a blessing for her! A whore is certainly an improvement to being raped by ones father. Then Bronn pulls up, and stands in front of her date asks her do you wanna see my friends spaceship? 

Rest is history. He dressed her in wealth, kept her safe and made her laugh. Its not impossible to believe she fell in love. She'd have to be some double O agent to not catch some feeling.

Shae Spy? (Sounds like a middle eastern dish) If she was, she's gotta be one of the worst ones. That whole Symon Silvertounge debacle just screams board adolescent girl, not Machivelli. 

And after Varys told Tyrion that one day he's gonna snitch hard on Shae, he did! Cersei got her hands on her and asked her to be more colorful, so like anybody staring down the rack, she made up all sorts of colors. Then Tywin gets her. He always wanted to be Tyrion. And what's she supposed to say?

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I am forever waiting for Bronn to stab someone in the back. 

That true knight!

It wont be Tyrion tho, he named his kid after him. Thats respect 

30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The editors love that term

It's a lovely term

[Curled Finger]

@Hugorfonics stupid thing won't let me quote and rebut in the same space.  You're not really falling for the Shae thing?  You are pulling my leg, right?  C'mon, bud, you don't believe the story?  The whole thing stinks with Shae.  Where are you getting this father rape thing from?  That's not in the text anywhere.  Dude, quit watching reruns of Barretta.  Even in Barretta when the bad girl falls in love she doesn't testify against Huggy Bear.  

Other folks here have made the (fairly good) case for Shae's possible spying in Tywin's service.  Without hard evidence, our duty to the public here at the Post is to offer facts and let you come to your own conclusion.  Our conclusion was only that Shae was placed to prove a point by Tywin Lannister. 

You do shed a little light on an often ignored possibility that Cersei did in fact determine that Shae was her brother's consort and put her to questioning.  Did Shae come forward?  To Whom?  Did Varys expose the relationship and whereabouts of Shae?   All good question worth investigating.  

[Nevets]

I suspect that Shae's perjury was Cersei's doing.  She mentions at one point promises of a nice house, jewelry, etc. for her testimony.  Though she denied it to her because Shae couldn't tell her where Sansa was.

I doubt Tywin had anything to do with Shae's testimony.  My perception is that he truly believes Tyrion is guilty.  Which is not unreasonable.  If I didn't have access to Tyrion's thoughts, I would probably think he's guilty as well.  If Shae was spying for him then, he would know she's lying - to someone.  He probably figured it didn't matter since there was ample evidence of Tyrion's guilt anyway.

[LongRider]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Whoa!  Are you implying Shae was previously associated with Lord Baelish?  

No, he sold Jeyne to Tywin for Roose to use as fArya.