Jump to content

Roose and Arya


Nevets
 Share

Recommended Posts

Did Roose Bolton know or suspect who Arya really was while they were at Harrenhal?  I think there is a good possibility he did.

In ADWD he has an interesting conversation with Theon.  He tells Theon that highborns say "my lord" while peasants say "m'lord".  I think GRRM is trying to tell us something?  Who else has he met who was highborn pretend to be smallfolk?  Why, Arya.  And she uses "my lord".

Their first meeting is after she frees the Northern prisoners.  She went to a great deal of trouble to do so, indicating clear Northern sympathies.  As a high-ranking member of Robb's army, he would know of her disappearance, and possibly a general description.  Making her his cup bearer is a suitable spot for a highborn, and allows him to keep an eye on her.

He ensures that she spends time with Elmar Frey, to whom she is betrothed.  He may intended to present her to Robb as a sort of trophy.  He may also have been waiting for confirmation before deciding what to do with her.  Of course, after the loss of Winterfell and Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling, he may have decided that marrying her to Ramsay was worthwhile after changing sides.  Of course, her escape made that impossible, necessitating the FArya plot.

If we were to find this out, it would probably be through Jeyne Poole.  He could have mentioned that he knew she was fake because he had met the real Arya.  While he may not have been certain while she was at Harrenhal, he could have gotten confirmation from sources in the BwB, either spies (such outfits tend to be riddled with informers) or captured prisoners.

Any takers?  My guess is it's GRRM keeping his options open and it could go either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

If we were to find this out, it would probably be through Jeyne Poole.  He could have mentioned that he knew she was fake because he had met the real Arya.

I can't see Roose telling Jeyne this, she has no need to know and knowing Roose had Arya and she got away, well, that might work against him.  If Roose knew Arya was his cupbearer, one would think he would capture her and then use her to his advantage. A high-born, high value prisoner would be one that shouldn't get away.  No, I can't see it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt it, or at least that wouldn't have been what tipped him off, as Roose was the one who told her to call him "my lord" in the first place.

The lord regarded her. Only his eyes moved; they were very pale, the color of ice. "How old are you, child?"
She had to think for a moment to remember. "Ten."
"Ten, my lord," he reminded her. "Are you fond of animals?"
"Some kinds. My lord."

(...)
"Nymeria," she said. "Only she called me Nan for short."
"You will call me my lord when you speak to me, Nan," the lord said mildly. "You are too young to be a Brave Companion, I think, and of the wrong sex. Are you afraid of leeches, child?"
"They're only leeches. My lord."
"My squire could take a lesson from you, it would seem. Frequent leechings are the secret of a long life. A man must purge himself of bad blood. You will do, I think. For so long as I remain at Harrenhal, Nan, you shall be my cupbearer, and serve me at table and in chambers."

This time she knew better than to say that she'd sooner work in the stables. "Yes, your lord. I mean, my lord."
The lord waved a hand. "Make her presentable," he said to no one in particular, "and make certain she knows how to pour wine without spilling it." Turning away, he lifted a hand and said, "Lord Hoat, see to those banners above the gatehouse.
-Arya IX, ACOK

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

He didn't know. There'd be no reason to take the fake Arya in that case.

My idea is that he took the fake Arya once the real Arya had gone and he realized he wasn't getting her back.  At this point, we have no idea how long the FArya plot was in motion.  My guess is not very long, especially since his changing of sides was relatively recent.

Edited by Nevets
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I believe Roose has always known that the Arya he got from King's Landing is fake. I argue this in pink letter threads.
 

Quote

 

"She has a brother still." She has three brothers still, he might have said. "Jon Snow is with the Night's Watch."

"A half-brother, bastard-born, and bound to the Wall. You were her father's ward, the nearest thing she has to living kin. It is only fitting that you give her hand in marriage."

The nearest thing she has to living kin. Theon Greyjoy had grown up with Arya Stark. Theon would have known an imposter. If he was seen to accept Bolton's feigned girl as Arya, the northern lords who had gathered to bear witness to the match would have no grounds to question her legitimacy. Stout and Slate, Whoresbane Umber, the quarrelsome Ryswells, Hornwood men and Cerywn cousins, fat Lord Wyman Manderly … not one of them had known Ned Stark's daughters half so well as he. And if a few entertained private doubts, surely they would be wise enough to keep those misgivings to themselves.

They are using me to cloak their deception, putting mine own face on their lie. That was why Roose Bolton had clothed him as a lord again, to play his part in this mummer's farce. Once that was done, once their false Arya had been wedded and bedded, Bolton would have no more use for Theon Turncloak.

 

The Bolton's know that Arya is fake. That's why they clothed Theon as a lord again and had him give her away, they are using him to cloak their deception, to authenticate that it really is Arya.

Theon suggested Jon should give her away, but the idea was dismissed because Jon was only a half-brother and a bastard and he was bound to the Wall. A bunch of excuses. Of course a half-brother is closer kin than a father's ward. I'm sure they would have loved to have the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to cloak their deception instead of Theon Turncloak. The problem is, like Theon, Jon would know it was not Arya, but unlike Theon, the Boltons don't control Jon. Best to just dismiss him as a mere half-brother and bastard and go with her father's ward instead.

Theon even suspects some of the gathered lords have their suspicions, but they are wise enough to keep those misgivings to themselves because the Boltons are in power.

If we go back to Harrenhal then I think that Roose grew to suspect Nan was Arya Stark. Roose is quite shrewd and observant. Arya is said to have the same grey eyes as Ned, Stark eyes. She also has the long face, like Jon. She definitely has the Stark look.

Roose did tell Nan that he was leaving her behind in Harrenhal with Hoat when he returned north, but I think we should be cautious about believing him. In normal circumstances Roose would not entertain being questioned by a servant, he might even have her tongue cut out for her insolence. Instead he looked amused and decided to give Arya an answer. That seems calculated to me. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/1/2023 at 9:01 PM, Nevets said:

Did Roose Bolton know or suspect who Arya really was while they were at Harrenhal?  I think there is a good possibility he did.

In ADWD he has an interesting conversation with Theon.  He tells Theon that highborns say "my lord" while peasants say "m'lord".  I think GRRM is trying to tell us something?  Who else has he met who was highborn pretend to be smallfolk?  Why, Arya.  And she uses "my lord".

Their first meeting is after she frees the Northern prisoners.  She went to a great deal of trouble to do so, indicating clear Northern sympathies.  As a high-ranking member of Robb's army, he would know of her disappearance, and possibly a general description.  Making her his cup bearer is a suitable spot for a highborn, and allows him to keep an eye on her.

He ensures that she spends time with Elmar Frey, to whom she is betrothed.  He may intended to present her to Robb as a sort of trophy.  He may also have been waiting for confirmation before deciding what to do with her.  Of course, after the loss of Winterfell and Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling, he may have decided that marrying her to Ramsay was worthwhile after changing sides.  Of course, her escape made that impossible, necessitating the FArya plot.

If we were to find this out, it would probably be through Jeyne Poole.  He could have mentioned that he knew she was fake because he had met the real Arya.  While he may not have been certain while she was at Harrenhal, he could have gotten confirmation from sources in the BwB, either spies (such outfits tend to be riddled with informers) or captured prisoners.

Any takers?  My guess is it's GRRM keeping his options open and it could go either way.

Like a lot of things about Roose, this one is a puzzle. On the one hand, I can't imagine him even giving Arya the opportunity to escape if he knew who she really was. Nor would he leave her with the goat, so why tell her that this is what he's going to do? A crafty guy like Roose would tell her he knows her identity, but not to fear, he is Robb's loyal bannerman, she is safe, and he will return her to her family shortly.

Also, her Stark look and northern accent would give her away to a sharp player like Roose. He spotted Ramsay's telltale Bolton eyes easily enough. And then the conversation with Theon shows that Roose knows how to spot a highborn, and even if he did not know she was Arya he knows she is somebody of value, so why give her up so easily?

So my only conclusion is that Roose only realized he had someone of value after Arya had escaped, and the that "my lord" was the telltale sign that he missed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

My idea is that he took the fake Arya once the real Arya had gone and he realized he wasn't getting her back.  At this point, we have no idea how long the FArya plot was in motion.  My guess is not very long, especially since his changing of sides was relatively recent.

No but Roose is not a stupid guy, the second he realized that was the real Arya he was talking to, doors barred, Arya captured, major hush-hush, leverage with the Lannisters. He wouldn't just, like, let her go. Maybe he realized after she escaped, but not while he was talking to her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

No but Roose is not a stupid guy, the second he realized that was the real Arya he was talking to, doors barred, Arya captured, major hush-hush, leverage with the Lannisters. He wouldn't just, like, let her go. Maybe he realized after she escaped, but not while he was talking to her.

Right.  It's just an idea.  I am arguing Bronn isn't stupid in another topic.  So we agree that Roose isn't stupid.  Can we take it a step farther and agree that he is also at the time a man under immense pressure, perhaps torn even?  He's got Harrenhal and this nifty victory for King Robb, who he doesn't think that much of through a series of unlikely events.  Roose is an ambitious man in dangerous territory.  He's not yet had an offer from Tywin, but perhaps he's got access to some of Tywin's papers left behind--something that leads him to believe that Tywin Lannister could be an ally.  Roose is right smack dab in the middle of some really big stuff when who lands in his lap but one person who could buy him some very high favor with the recently widowed Lady Stark and her son, King Robb.  This little girl is power.  He allows her to play her game while he figures out where she is most valuable to him.  Or what option is most propitious.

As Robert Plant famously sang, "there are two paths you can go by"...Roose at this point may well have been dealing with either becoming top dog in the North by betraying Robb or sending Arya back to Robb thereby ingratiating himself as Robb's great right hand.  There is the matter of material being mysteriously tossed into a fire.  I submit to you that it is as likely concealing a letter of acceptance of terms from Tywin as a letter to Robb advising him of his sister's whereabouts and safety.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was reading those chapters at Harrenhal to get more information on Roose and he was the star of those chapters.  I have never found Arya herself interesting.  But Roose made things mysterious.  He was weird.   

Arya has an unusual look.  The face of the north.  The long head shape is what earned her the nickname "horseface."  It is almost impossible for Roose Bolton to fail to recognize her strange appearance because it is out of place in the heart of the river lands.  So it begs the question why he didn't take her prisoner and gift her to Lord Walder Frey.  I might believe Roose was not thinking clearly due to excess blood loss and he thought she was an orphan who was displaced by the Stark Rebellion.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

No but Roose is not a stupid guy, the second he realized that was the real Arya he was talking to, doors barred, Arya captured, major hush-hush, leverage with the Lannisters. He wouldn't just, like, let her go. Maybe he realized after she escaped, but not while he was talking to her.

I agree that he may well have realized it after he she escaped, but just because he didn't act immediately doesn't mean he didn't realize it when he was talking to her. Arya says that Roose was cautious, with guards on the kingspyre tower, where she slept, day and night. She had to slip out a cellar window, and she still had to escape the castle after that. Nan was in Harrenhal when Roose arrived, she was reporting for her duties daily, he had no reason to suspect she was trying to escape. He probably underestimated her ability to escape as well.

Capturing her is one thing but major hush-hush in a place like Harrenhal is not so easy. Just look at all the rumors and tidbits of news Arya heard while she was there. Roose may have felt it better to bide his time and plan to take her quietly, or whisk her away at the last minute, while feigning disinterest in her by telling her she was staying behind.

The moment of realization might have come to Roose in their last conversation when she was questioning him, the moment when he looked amused. Servants know better than to be so bold as to question their lords. It reminds me of what Stannis once said to Jon, "You're bold enough to be a Stark."

I believe the deal with Tywin was done at that stage, Arya had seen a raven arrive and wondered if it was from Robb. I'd say it was probably about Robb but not from him. Roose hunting wolves and having gloves made from the wolf pups. A lot of foreshadowing of what's to come but I think it also suggests that Roose had made his decision.

There's one other angle that we should consider. When Tywin sent Jeyne to Roose, I think Roose would have been  justified in being suspicious of Tywin. Roose is no fool. Yet he never asks Theon to verify if it really is Arya. Instead, Jeyne is just introduced to Theon as Arya and Theon has no choice but to play along. If Roose was unsure about the girl then he would have asked Theon, but Roose was sure. He was sure it wasn't her. And I think the reason for that is because he had come to realize that Nan was Arya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/4/2023 at 4:57 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

There's one other angle that we should consider. When Tywin sent Jeyne to Roose, I think Roose would have been  justified in being suspicious of Tywin. Roose is no fool. Yet he never asks Theon to verify if it really is Arya. Instead, Jeyne is just introduced to Theon as Arya and Theon has no choice but to play along. If Roose was unsure about the girl then he would have asked Theon, but Roose was sure. He was sure it wasn't her. And I think the reason for that is because he had come to realize that Nan was Arya.

This is actually a really good point: I just guess I had already considered that he was 100% a-go with Tywin since basically the beginning, but it does make sense that Roose wouldn't trust Tywin to send a fake Arya.

I would love to see the moment where he realizes that he let her get away; just the sheer miscalculation of it would probably make him crazy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I would love to see the moment where he realizes that he let her get away; just the sheer miscalculation of it would probably make him crazy.

My favourite imaginary scene is when he's searching for map and dagger, and the guard letting in one after the other reporting missing swords, horses, cheese and pies, and the missing cook, smith's apprentice and Nan, with the final alert of a dead guard. I'll bet he curses the name Arya by the end of aDwD: both the real and fake one escaped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Roose perhaps saw a kindred spirit in the unusual child. Roose skins his enemies. Arya does the same to the faces of the dead. Roose is clever. Arya may have a tell. Something in her eyes told Roose this is a future predator.  

But Roose is the third most infamous Stark killer in the Seven Kingdoms, why would he let a Stark go free? I'm just personally excited for Arya and Dany to ride dragons together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...