The Martells and the Tower of Joy

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Do you think that the members of House Martell had any knowledge about the Tower of Joy, and how Rhaegar went here with Lyanna and a good portion of the Kingsguard ?

If no what would have been the reactions to Rhaegar hiding with Lyanna in their own kingdom, after he abandoned Elia, and what would have they done about it ?

[James Steller]

21 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Do you think that the members of House Martell had any knowledge about the Tower of Joy, and how Rhaegar went here with Lyanna and a good portion of the Kingsguard ?

If no what would have been the reactions to Rhaegar hiding with Lyanna in their own kingdom, after he abandoned Elia, and what would have they done about it ?

By all accounts, they would and should have been utterly pissed off. The only way it makes sense to me at all is that they didn’t know Rhaegar was there. 
If GRRM tries to retcon it that the Martells were in on Rhaegar’s prophecy BS and believed him…

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

The Tower of Joy was an unnamed tower in the moutains on the opposite side of Dorne. Unless Elia and/or Lewyn knew about it, I don't think Sunspear learned about it before everybody else once it became known after the war.

Fun fact: the term "tower of joy" appears only once in all the books.

[Frey family reunion]

The tower of joy lies in the territory of House Manwoody, and sits only a short distance from their castle, Kingsgrave.  

Which is a strange place for Rhaegar to hide his paramour.  Especially if he wished to keep her existence unknown to his wife or her family, especially her very protective, quick tempered brother, Oberyn.

When Oberyn fought the Mountain, two men acted as his squires in preparing his armor for the battle.  Daemon Sand and Lord Dagos Manwoody.  We specifically learned that Daemon Sand once squired for Oberyn.  So it would stand to reason that Dagos Manwoody may have also squired for Oberyn in his youth as well, which is why these two were the ones Oberyn entrusted in helping him prepare for battle.

So it’s very possible that around the events of the tower of joy, Dagos Manwoody may have even been Oberyn’s squire then.  Regardless, there seems to be a strong attachment between the two.  

So a very perilous place to hide your paramour, if indeed that’s what the tower of joy’s true purpose was.  Personally, I’m skeptical.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Frey family reunion I was gonna refute your point on Dagos being a former squire for Oberyn because I remembered him having sons and I had the impression he was a man of a certain age in ASOS. However, after looking into it both of Dagos's sons are not knighted, which most likely puts them on the younger side. Oberyn was in his mid 20s at the end of Robert's Rebellion, Dagos could totally have been his squire as a teen during the this time and have young sons now.

A squire can be older than his mentor but that seems to be rare. The only example I have in mind is Olyvar Frey being two years older than Robb. It is possible the new squires for Sweetrobin (Gyles Grafton and Terrance Lynderly) are a bit older than him but there is no evidence for now.

Kingsgrave is the closest castle to the Tower of Joy we have on the map but we don't know for sure the tower is within their domain.

[James Steller]

34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The tower of joy lies in the territory of House Manwoody, and sits only a short distance from their castle, Kingsgrave.  

Which is a strange place for Rhaegar to hide his paramour.  Especially if he wished to keep her existence unknown to his wife or her family, especially her very protective, quick tempered brother, Oberyn.

When Oberyn fought the Mountain, two men acted as his squires in preparing his armor for the battle.  Daemon Sand and Lord Dagos Manwoody.  We specifically learned that Daemon Sand once squired for Oberyn.  So it would stand to reason that Dagos Manwoody may have also squired for Oberyn in his youth as well, which is why these two were the ones Oberyn entrusted in helping him prepare for battle.

So it’s very possible that around the events of the tower of joy, Dagos Manwoody may have even been Oberyn’s squire then.  Regardless, there seems to be a strong attachment between the two.  

So a very perilous place to hide your paramour, if indeed that’s what the tower of joy’s true purpose was.  Personally, I’m skeptical.

The more I learn about the Rhaegar Lyanna storyline, the less I like it.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

3 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The more I learn about the Rhaegar Lyanna storyline, the less I like it.

Well whether it was for love or for the pursuit of prophecy, Rhaegar did fuck it all up somewhere.

[Groo]

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So a very perilous place to hide your paramour, if indeed that’s what the tower of joy’s true purpose was.  Personally, I’m skeptical.

Lyanna and the Kingsguard might have just stopped there because she was about to give birth. Everyone seems to assume that she was camped out there the whole time.

[James Steller]

9 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Well whether it was for love or for the pursuit of prophecy, Rhaegar did fuck it all up somewhere.

What worries me most of all is the idea that Rhaegar will be vindicated somehow, that everything he (and possibly Lyanna) did and caused to happen was worth it if the Others are defeated by their “chosen one” offspring.

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, Groo said:

Lyanna and the Kingsguard might have just stopped there because she was about to give birth. Everyone seems to assume that she was camped out there the whole time.

Yea, that’s the tower of Bethlehem theory.  At least that’s what I call it.  The thing that gives me pause is that she at least had to be there some time prior to the Battle of the Trident because Rhaegar refers to the location as the tower of joy.  So Rhaegar at least had to be aware of it before his death.  And then you have to question how long before Rhaegar’s death would he have been aware of the location?  Before he returned to King’s Landing, or after.

Then we have two weeks leading up to the Sack of King’s Landing.  Probably another two weeks for Eddard to travel to Storm’s End, and then the length of time it took for Eddard to find out about the whereabouts of the tower of joy and then travel there.  And if you look at the map, we’re talking about considerable distances.  So a time period of at least a month and a half probably bordering on two months, and if Rhaegar learned of it before he returned to King’s Landing, far longer.    So it appears it had to be a little more than a quick pit stop.

 

[EggBlue]

The question is, was Lyanna, in fact, in that tower? If she was, was she there the whole time? ... considering everything that happened, even if Martells and/or Elia had been ok with Rhaegar taking a paramour or running off with Lyanna (which is one odd consensus among RL fans), they would rightfully be pissed at Lyanna and Rhaegar during and after the war. I doubt hiding in an abandoned watchtower with a pregnant woman in Manwoody territory is more manageable than hiding in a loyalist castle. 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it appears it had to be a little more than a quick pit stop.

With the Daynes being all around the Rhaegar-Lyanna situation, I wonder if Rhaegar did not planned to have Lyanna hidding safely at Starfall, the seat of his best friend Arthur Dayne. He along with the three Kingsguards (Dayne, Whent and Hightower) and some other trusted guards escorted her there (explaining what the hell he was doing when the kingdom was at war) but something went bad with the baby on the way. The party was forced to stop and rest at this unnamed tower that Rhaegar renamed the Tower of Joy to reconfort Lyanna. Arthur made it to Starfall and brought back the wet nurse Wylla and midwives to prepare for Lyanna's childbirth. In the meantime, Rhaegar learned about the situation of the war and felt obligated to leave Lyanna and returned to King's Landing but left the Kingsguards with Lyanna.

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

The question is, was Lyanna, in fact, in that tower? If she was, was she there the whole time? ... considering everything that happened, even if Martells and/or Elia had been ok with Rhaegar taking a paramour or running off with Lyanna (which is one odd consensus among RL fans), they would rightfully be pissed at Lyanna and Rhaegar during and after the war. I doubt hiding in an abandoned watchtower with a pregnant woman in Manwoody territory is more manageable than hiding in a loyalist castle. 

I’ve questioned this as well.  The only “evidence” we have is through Eddard’s fever dream, and even that has a distinct cutaway between the battle at the tower of joy and Lyanna’s death bed.  GRRM also explicitly warned a reader that fever dreams shouldn’t always be taken too literally.

We know from Eddard’s memories that he encountered the three kingsguards at a location Rhaegar called the tower of joy.  We know from Eddard’s memories that he was at Lyanna’s side when she died.  What we don’t know from Eddard’s memories is that the two events occurred at the same time and location.

The appendix does say that Lyanna died in the red mountains of Dorne.  But it just so happens that the place Eddard traveled to after the battle at the tower of joy, Starfall, also lies within those same mountains.  And that might explain Eddard’s true reason for taking such a perilous journey through enemy territory, that he was traveling to Lyanna.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

With the Daynes being all around the Rhaegar-Lyanna situation, I wonder if Rhaegar did not planned to have Lyanna hidding safely at Starfall, the seat of his best friend Arthur Dayne. He along with the three Kingsguards (Dayne, Whent and Hightower) and some other trusted guards escorted her there (explaining what the hell he was doing when the kingdom was at war) but something went bad with the baby on the way. The party was forced to stop and rest at this unnamed tower that Rhaegar renamed the Tower of Joy to reconfort Lyanna. Arthur made it to Starfall and brought back the wet nurse Wylla and midwives to prepare for Lyanna's childbirth. In the meantime, Rhaegar learned about the situation of the war and felt obligated to leave Lyanna and returned to King's Landing but left the Kingsguards with Lyanna.

How do we know for certain that Lyanna wasn’t at Starfall?

The main argument is the question as to why Eddard and company would travel to the “tower of joy”.  The common assumption seems to be that it had to be to free his sister Lyanna.  

But then why does Eddard travel with such a small company of men, all men that seem to be very loyal, Stark men.  Why not include more troops, including those sworn to Robert, who was betrothed to Lyanna?

It may be that Eddard already knew that what lay in the tower of joy was something that had to be kept secret, even from his allies, Robert and Jon Arryn.  So he only brought men he could trust to keep a Stark secret.  So it may not have been Lyanna Eddard was going to rescue.

[EggBlue]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that’s the tower of Bethlehem theory.  At least that’s what I call it.  The thing that gives me pause is that she at least had to be there some time prior to the Battle of the Trident because Rhaegar refers to the location as the tower of joy.  So Rhaegar at least had to be aware of it before his death.  And then you have to question how long before Rhaegar’s death would he have been aware of the location?  Before he returned to King’s Landing, or after.

Then we have two weeks leading up to the Sack of King’s Landing.  Probably another two weeks for Eddard to travel to Storm’s End, and then the length of time it took for Eddard to find out about the whereabouts of the tower of joy and then travel there.  And if you look at the map, we’re talking about considerable distances.  So a time period of at least a month and a half probably bordering on two months, and if Rhaegar learned of it before he returned to King’s Landing, far longer.    So it appears it had to be a little more than a quick pit stop.

 

all the more reason that I think we should look into the possibility that Rhaegar's connection to the tower might have nothing to do with Lyanna! The possibilities are endless really. We know Rhaegar had Dornish friends and a Dornish wife, and had traveled to Dorne before (as Jon Con's pov states), all being reasons to end up in that tower long enough to name it(maybe in a song or something) and for the smallfolk to recount it.

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve questioned this as well.  The only “evidence” we have is through Eddard’s fever dream, and even that has a distinct cutaway between the battle at the tower of joy and Lyanna’s death bed.  GRRM also explicitly warned a reader that fever dreams shouldn’t always be taken too literally.

We know from Eddard’s memories that he encountered the three kingsguards at a location Rhaegar called the tower of joy.  We know from Eddard’s memories that he was at Lyanna’s side when she died.  What we don’t know from Eddard’s memories that the two events occurred at the same time and location.

The appendix does say that Lyanna died in the red mountains of Dorne.  But it just so happens that he place Eddard traveled to after the battle at the tower of joy, Starfall, also lies within those same mountains.  And that might explain Eddard’s true reason for taking such a perilous journey through enemy territory, that he was traveling to Lyanna.

 

yep. and I clearly agree with that. 

now I feel like copy-pasting a pet theory I posted in another thread is a good idea! 

[EggBlue]

theory: 

the Kingsgaurd were not protecting Lyanna and her unborn child but were supposed to distract Ned and co. from Ashara and her princess's child she had with her. 

we've got some facts that we do not know what to make of:

• Daynes are ok with Ned, despite believing Ned's directly associated with the death of 2 of their siblings. so much so that they name their heir after him.
• after Lyanna's death, they find Ned holding her hand, even though Ned had stated that only two (he and Howland) left the tower.
• somehow, Ned and only 6 high-born companions find a secret watchtower where they face only three men. This seems like they had an appointment or something.
• Kingsgaurd believe they are upholding their duty to the king and House Targaryen. protecting the mistress of the dead crown prince and his unborn prince or princess from the said woman's brother in a hopeless affair, being outnumbered. this won't just do. especially when a pregnant queen and her son are in danger in Dragonstone.
• Ashara Dayne's death is repeated throughout the story, emphasizing her corpse never being found. 
• the Tower is in such a poor state that Ned and Howland can tear it down.
• Lyanna's somewhere that can be attended to after death, and Ned can take her bones home. Unlike that of his companions, all to Barbrey's dismay. 
• Jon Snow's wet nurse had been a loyal servant to Starfall.
• a mysterious, attractive woman with roughly the right age and birthing marks appears alongside a boy claiming to be Aegon Targaryen . all while prickly Jon Connington respects and trusts her, the way he doesn't trust someone like Haldon who's a hired or Varys who's a foreigner. 

 

Conclusion:  I think Ashara Dayne had been in on Varys and Elia's scheme to smuggle Aegon out. she must have been on her way to Starfall , while Ned  and his army were on the search for Lyanna . having communicated with Kingsgaurd , they decide to meet with Ned to stall him from going to Starfall where Lyanna would be, buying Ashara enough time to get there and hide Aegon. Ned and Kingsgaurd fight, and maybe by the end, Arthur trusts Ned with one or two of his secrets. Ned and Howland take some guards and go to Starfall afterward. Ned sees Lyanna die , promises her whatever, and lets the silent sisters or maester in Starfall attend to her corpse. he meets with lady Ashara and the lord/lady of Starfall who would know everything his/her siblings have done. gives them their sword back , apologizes for killing Arthur, claiming that he died a hero and all that noble stuff. in return for their secrecy about Lyanna's child, he promises them to cover for Ashara (whether he knows about Aegon or not), doesn't let Arthur's name sully (which would also especially work if Arthur had been Lyanna's lover, but works all the same if he was just loyal to Rhaegar's orders), and more importantly promises them that house Dayne would not be associated with Lyanna's whereabouts during the rebellion and their part in Rhaegar's plans is hidden. Something that keeps Daynes from the same fate as Darrys or Conningtons, who suffer under Robert's wrath caused by association with Rhaegar, leaving Daynes still rich and respected.  Ashara takes Aegon and leaves for Essos , she'll eventually meet with Jon Connington, who, despite his clear mistrust of Varys, believes Aegon's identity because of Ashara, who would naturally be a close acquaintance knowing they both served at Dragonstone. 

 

Or something close enough to this.

[Moiraine Sedai]

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Do you think that the members of House Martell had any knowledge about the Tower of Joy, and how Rhaegar went here with Lyanna and a good portion of the Kingsguard ?

If no what would have been the reactions to Rhaegar hiding with Lyanna in their own kingdom, after he abandoned Elia, and what would have they done about it ?

The Martells were offended, if that is what happened. But other men had women on the side. Elia’s place was already secured by marriage and children.  

[frenin]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

considering everything that happened, even if Martells and/or Elia had been ok with Rhaegar taking a paramour or running off with Lyanna (which is one odd consensus among RL fans),

They were not btw.

 

Quote

Doran is furious at Elia's mistreatment at the hands of her husband and so is slow to led any aid to the embattled Targaryens. It is only after Rhaegar returns from the south to take charge of the Targaryen host that Doran sends ten thousand men under the command of his uncle, Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard, to fight under the Targaryen baner at the Trudent. Despite Rhaegar's insult to his sister Elia by making off with Lyanna Stark, Doran understands that the fortunes of his house are tied to the Targaryens and that one day Elia will be queen and his nephew Aegon will one day inherit and be king.

APP ASOIAF

 

 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

How do we know for certain that Lyanna wasn’t at Starfall?

Well she died at the Tower of Joy for starters.

Quote

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Holand Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the Tower of Joy.

-AWOIAF, Lyanna Stark

[Groo]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

• somehow, Ned and only 6 high-born companions find a secret watchtower where they face only three men. This seems like they had an appointment or something.

 

Ned, party of 9! Your duel is ready. If you'll come this way, please, we have a lovely, secluded tower for you.

 

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Ned sees Lyanna die , promises her whatever, and lets the silent sisters or maester in Starfall attend to her corpse. he meets with lady Ashara and the lord/lady of Starfall who would know everything his/her siblings have done. gives them their sword back , apologizes for killing Arthur, claiming that he died a hero and all that noble stuff. in return for their secrecy about Lyanna's child, he promises them to cover for Ashara (whether he knows about Aegon or not),

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the Dayne's would both know about Lyanna's child and be hiding Aegon. That's two big and potentially conflicting secrets to be keeping. They could exercise a lot of power just be deciding which secret(s) to tell, when to tell them, and to whom.