Did the Tyrells know about Renly and Loras?

[James Steller]

Excluding the abomination from this conversation, I wonder how much the Tyrells knew about Loras’s relationship with Renly.

The only one I can guess for certain is that Garlan Tyrell knew what his brother’s orientation was. He hints at it to Sansa during her wedding, and she’s too clueless to put it together. Whether he knew about Renly, I can’t be sure, but I feel like Garlan did know and is the exact kind of bro who would keep it a secret from the wrong people. 

I doubt Mace and Alerie knew about Renly, as it would probably be a very questionable thing. Royalty or not, Renly is a man who took Loras on as a squire, most likely when he was underage too. That element would probably be too much for Mace to put up with if he knew. 

Margaery probably didn’t know. Not to the full extent anyway, unless I’m forgetting some part of the books where she also hints at it.

Olenna definitely knew, and maybe she resented Renly for it, since she clearly has nothing nice to say about him.

[Nittanian]

Regarding Loras, at least:

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Loras_Robert_Arryn_the_Clegane_Sister_and_a_Sword

Are Mace Tyrell and the Queen of Thorns aware of Loras's sexuality?

Yes and yes.

and

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Is it well known that Renly and Loras are gay? (Jaime's comment seems to indicate as much.)

What do you think?

 

Edited April 5 by Nittanian

[Alester Florent]

If Mace, who is by far the most obtuse of the Tyrells, knows, then surely the whole family does.

[GZ Bloodraven]

I mean the cousins probably don't, but Garlan, Marg, Olenna, Mace, Alerie (maybe Leyton because of that) definitely do. As to if they know he's doing it with Renly, an on-the-down-low but also open-secret gay king who Loras is a Rainbow Guard for, I'd say yes they know Loras is fucking Renly. 

 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I do find it interesting how the abomination took a world in which LGBTQ relationships are an open secret without that much judgment, and injected all the homophobia of the modern world into it.

[sifth]

Margaery and Olenna probably did. Not quite sure about the others though.

[Alester Florent]

47 minutes ago, sifth said:

Margaery and Olenna probably did. Not quite sure about the others though.

I think it's fair to assume that if Olenna knew, Willas did. And there's probably no reason Garlan wouldn't have known if all his siblings did. In any case we have a SSM indicating Mace did know.

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I do find it interesting how the abomination took a world in which LGBTQ relationships are an open secret without that much judgment, and injected all the homophobia of the modern world into it.

Renly and Loras might come in for more criticism if they didn't embody masculine virtues otherwise, I suppose. But Loras is one of the most renowned knights in the 7K and Renly holds his end up in tourneys and the like. If they were a bit more effeminate, or "soft", people might take issue with them.

Cersei is very homophobic in the books notwithstanding the above, but she does seem to be the exception.

In terms of the shows, I thought that (save for the ending to his story) HotD did a far, far better job with Laenor Velaryon than GoT did with Loras and Renly. In fact I think HotD arguably did a better job with Laenor than GRRM did in Fire and Blood.

Edited April 6 by Alester Florent

[James Arryn]

5 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Renly and Loras might come in for more criticism if they didn't embody masculine virtues otherwise, I suppose. But Loras is one of the most renowned knights in the 7K and Renly holds his end up in tourneys and the like. If they were a bit more effeminate, or "soft", people might take issue with them.

Cersei is very homophobic in the books notwithstanding the above, but she does seem to be the exception.

In terms of the shows, I thought that (save for the ending to his story) HotD did a far, far better job with Laenor Velaryon than GoT did with Loras and Renly. In fact I think HotD arguably did a better job with Laenor than GRRM did in Fire and Blood.

Interestingly, the association of gay and effeminate is itself a bi-product of Judeo-Christian prejudice. There is no such association with attraction to the same gender outside of it. In fact, arguably the greatest western pre-JC hero, Achilles, was inclusively ‘gay’, as were many of the people people like Alexander the Great who modelled themselves after him. Thinking it might mean you were less likely to be martial would have been an unknown association absent later religious doctrine. 
 

Though to be fair ‘gay’ itself is another JC construct. Before monotheistic religions had their say, being gay…ie, being ~ defined by your sexual tastes…was also an unknown concept, and ancients would have been as confused by that idea as being defined by your favourite pastry or w/e. There was some sexual morality sometimes evident, but it had nothing to do with who you had sex with, but rather whether you were submissive or dominant, and even that was pretty innocuous. Caesar, for example, was not criticized for including men in his tastes, but rather for (according to his critics) being the submissive one in those encounters…and for being promiscuous and sexually untrustworthy in general. 
 

HotD, I agree generally it was better, but in that part of it was done to whitewash a character’s (at that time) worst action..albeit in a very creative way, threading that needle in that very narrow corridor left by differing accounts…it at the time struck me as less commendable than it otherwise might have. Certainly there seemed to be a general understanding that Laenor was somehow wrong, somehow wanting, someone who should apologize. Now that might be said to be about his being unfaithful, but it struck me more as one of those things just understood because of existing RL bigotry. The idea of his being tortured to drink because of his guilty inclinations is again a very post JC theme. 
 

 

Edited April 6 by James Arryn

[Aebram]

My impression was that Renly and Loras' relationship was somewhat of an open secret, at leasr around the court.  For example:

Quote

“Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras’s inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras’s case." (Storm 68)

There's no explanation of why it was "doubly difficult" to find a wife for Loras, but I think we know the reason. So it seems clear that Littlefinger knew about their relationship, although admittedly, he probably knew more about the highborn's private lives than most people.

Also, I'm pretty sure that there's a place in the story where someone refers to Loras as "Renly's little flower," but a search of the e-books didn't turn it up.

[Red_star99]

22 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

In terms of the shows, I thought that (save for the ending to his story) HotD did a far, far better job with Laenor Velaryon than GoT did with Loras and Renly. In fact I think HotD arguably did a better job with Laenor than GRRM did in Fire and Blood.

though they dropped the ball in the second half they should had him the king of stepstones after daemon and blamed his death on the tirachy or by dorne because he was planing to invade them 

[Jon Fossoway]

A lot of people in the high places must have been aware. In real life, these things don't go unnoticed, either. In the end, as concerned for Renly, in a world like Westeros, it matters more than he gets married to a highborn woman and have some kids to continue the line of succesion. The show drives this home by remarking that Margaery was perfectly aware of Renly's sexual preferences.

[Minsc]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:18 PM, James Steller said:

Olenna definitely knew, and maybe she resented Renly for it, since she clearly has nothing nice to say about him.

I take it that her dislike for him might come from how he reminds her of her Targaryen Prince, Daeron, that dumped her to live as "bachelors" with his male friend, Jeremy Norridge. 

[James Arryn]

17 hours ago, Minsc said:

I take it that her dislike for him might come from how he reminds her of her Targaryen Prince, Daeron, that dumped her to live as "bachelors" with his male friend, Jeremy Norridge. 

Great point, never considered it. But tbh she only talks shit about him after he is dead and therefore of no further use to House Tyrell and singing the praises of the enemy of your current ally isn’t exactly advisable…I take everything she does as political theatre. Like, for example, does she really think her son is an idiot? Maybe, but we have no way of really knowing…what I do feel confident saying is that she clearly wants KL to think she thinks he is. 

Edited April 9 by James Arryn

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Great point, never considered it. But tbh she only talks shit about him after he is dead and therefore of no further use to House Tyrell and singing the praises of the enemy of your current ally isn’t exactly advisable…I take everything she does as political theatre. Like, for example, does she really think her son is an idiot? Maybe, but we have no way of really knowing…what I do feel confident saying is that she clearly wants KL to think she thinks he is. 

 

Olenna is talking to Sansa in an isolated place (!) and wants to know whether she is brave enough to tell her the truth about Joffrey. Why would she feel the need to lie about her opinion to Renly? Loras, a member of Joffrey's Kingsguard is singing his praises anyway.

I think after her experiences with Daeron (who is, just like Renly, a gay third son who could have become King), it's understandable if she doesn't want to betroth her children or grandchildren to royalty. 

[James Arryn]

7 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Olenna is talking to Sansa in an isolated place (!) and wants to know whether she is brave enough to tell her the truth about Joffrey. Why would she feel the need to lie about her opinion to Renly? Loras, a member of Joffrey's Kingsguard is singing his praises anyway.

I think after her experiences with Daeron (who is, just like Renly, a gay third son who could have become King), it's understandable if she doesn't want to betroth her children or grandchildren to royalty. 

Loras has an obvious motivation, and his switching gears would be patently artificial. But Olenna is providing the avenue to reconciling Tyrell + Renly vs Lannister =/= Tyrell + Lannister, namely ‘we were divided, Loras’ emotional investment vs. those who (conveniently) saw Renly as Cersei does’. Because unlike Cersei the Tyrells are actually trying to build a working relationship with the other house at the time. 
 

As for the place and time, yes, Olenna wants to suss Sansa, but the very fact that she can do that so easily is one very strong reason to not say anything you don’t want her repeating to others, even if you…as I do not…think the QoT is ever going to let her guard down in the midst of the game in KL. 

Edited April 9 by James Arryn

[Frey family reunion]

Among the nobility, there is no particular reason to assume that engaging in homosexual behavior led to any type of significant prejudice.  I’m also not really sure that the concept of having a sexual identity had really developed in Westeros.  

I think the main concern was that your male heirs were willing to do their duty and find a bride from a suitable household and procreate.  I think the same went for the daughters.  As long as they did that, I’m not sure there was much concern about someone’s sexual preference.

Since Loras was the third son, he probably had a lot more leeway than he would if he were the first born, or second born, if in fact Willas’ injury made finding him a match difficult.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:10 PM, James Arryn said:

Great point, never considered it. But tbh she only talks shit about him after he is dead and therefore of no further use to House Tyrell and singing the praises of the enemy of your current ally isn’t exactly advisable…I take everything she does as political theatre. Like, for example, does she really think her son is an idiot? Maybe, but we have no way of really knowing…what I do feel confident saying is that she clearly wants KL to think she thinks he is. 

The impression I got is that throwing their lot in with Renly caused her House considerable issues, that they then had to try and rectify.  She seemed more irritated with her son then she did with Renly.

[James Arryn]

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The impression I got is that throwing their lot in with Renly caused her House considerable issues, that they then had to try and rectify.  She seemed more irritated with her son then she did with Renly.

The thing is, we see exactly none of that before Shadowbaby. Cat’s perspective on his forces, even through the lens of adopted northern prejudice, is as united and enthusiastic a gathering as we’ve been shown. And the Tyrells had to be completely on board…Loras could not generate 100000 troops, nothing even close. Another term for troops at the time ASOIAF is based on was ‘affinity’ because the number of troops were an almost direct reflection of the enthusiasm for the leader.
 

And what issues did supporting Renly itself cause? An impending royal position? An almost inevitable victory? The shadow baby caused the issues; absent the first deus ex machina in the novels, they are in a much better position than they have ever been since, with a king they actually support and who isn’t treating them like the true enemy. 

It’s kind of hard to avoid narrative drift, but it’s still important to remember that siding with Renly was not a mistake, it was very obviously the right and winning move for House Tyrell. There was literally nothing anyone could halve known that would suggest anything different, and consequentialism to determine righteousness or wrong is intellectually bankrupt.
 

Or, to put it another way, if Walder Frey or Ramsay Bolton or the Lord O’ Bones or Janos Slynt gets ahold of Shadowbaby assassins, everyone who sided against  them would become ‘wrong’.

Edited April 10 by James Arryn