Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that... Aldarion, Mithras, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. I would be veeeeeery silly and, as you’ve said, it would absolutely detract from my ability to experience the story immersively and my enjoyment of the books. 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that... Isn't that indirectly an ongoing issue though? IMO that’s the point of the rabid and dumb hate thrown at other families + all the arguments about how fucking awesome and superior Targs are. I will concede it will get much worse with this retcon, but then I suppose they’ll be just talking to themselves. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and SaffronLady 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, kissdbyfire said: Isn't that indirectly an ongoing issue though? Yeah to be fair people do it anyway, but it would 'legitimise' the behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 To the OP: I guess you are objecting to something from one of the shows. But I will ignore that and merely respond to what you are saying here. There is a prophesy about TPTWP. We don't know much about it. Just hints. One hint is that it is connected to a prophesy about a dragon with 3 heads. Another hint is Rhaegar's apparent belief that the 3-headed dragon refers to 3 siblings. This is apparently an ancient prophesy, far older than Aegon's conquest. So what did Aegon the Conqueror mean when he made the "Three Headed Dragon" the symbol of his house? Did he think that HE was destined to be TPTWP? Did he think the he and his sisters were the 3-headed dragon of prophesy? It is impossible not to think there is some connection. Also, prophesy does not justify anything, because prophesy is treacherous. Who cares if Aegon thought he was TPTWP? Who cares if he thought it justified his conquests and his crimes? Obviously he was wrong. He wasn't TPTWP. TPTWP is still to come. maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 (edited) Well, GRRM all but confirmed it: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/house-of-the-dragon-george-r-r-martin These are prophecies that ultimately played out as the climax of the original series. This show suggests that not only are they known by the Targaryens 200 years before, but they’ve been known for about a century. Condal: I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: “That came from George.” I reassured everybody. What is the significance of these prophecies, George? Unless I’ve missed it, is this something you wrote in one of the books, or is that an invention of the show? Martin: It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example [the brother of Daenerys, played on Game of Thrones by Wilf Scolding]. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories [about a future king, “Egg,” a.k.a. Aegon V], there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet. (Do I disagree with this retcon? Yes, I think this was perhaps a bad decision from George and from Fire&Blood Aegon I doesn't come off as a guy who only conquers Westeros due to a prophecy (which he, comfortably, keeps secret from everybody).) EDIT: the more I think about it, the more I believe it's actually not a retcon but something George has planned from the very beginning. Rhaegar said about Aegon that 'his is the song of ice and fire', not that 'he is the song of ice and fire'. Edited June 15, 2023 by csuszka1948 maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Gilbert Green said: I guess you are objecting to something from one of the shows. I haven't seen any of the shows but people are saying that this 'Aegon's Prophecy' will be part of the books or are already treating it like a part of the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ Bloodraven Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that... Aegon's prophecy is actually super interesting for the "manifest destiny" and utilitarian questions that George is playing with, but I do agree that making it so explicit in the books should not happen. But Aegon knowing about Azor Ahai, and thinking he or his lineage was going to be part of Azor Ahai, is not really a retcon at all....By including the prophecy, George could play with societal purpose, conquest and army rallying, as well as develop Aegon's character in a way that really on Mel/Stannis, Cersei and Rhaegar have been centered on: being so consumed with fortune and prophecy that they structure their lives around it. It wouldn't really be a blatant retcon as that does seem to be what George intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Well, GRRM all but confirmed it: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/house-of-the-dragon-george-r-r-martin These are prophecies that ultimately played out as the climax of the original series. This show suggests that not only are they known by the Targaryens 200 years before, but they’ve been known for about a century. Condal: I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: “That came from George.” I reassured everybody. What is the significance of these prophecies, George? Unless I’ve missed it, is this something you wrote in one of the books, or is that an invention of the show? Martin: It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example [the brother of Daenerys, played on Game of Thrones by Wilf Scolding]. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories [about a future king, “Egg,” a.k.a. Aegon V], there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet. We should be cautious about this. GRRM did not declare that what happened on the show was canon. He merely pointed out that it is vaguely RELATED TO an idea already present in the books. Which is certainly true. The solution to this is to ignore what happened on the show and discuss the books. 10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Do I disagree with this retcon? Yes, I think this was a bad decision from George and from Fire&Blood Aegon I doesn't come off as a guy who only conquers Westeros due to a prophecy (which he, comfortably, keeps secret from everybody). GRRM never said Aegon "only conquers Westeros due to a prophesy". You are arguing against something he never said. The TPTWP prophesy, however, is an ancient prophesy. Aegon I did not invent it. And he did reference the prophesy by making the 3-headed dragon symbol the symbol of his house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, GZ Bloodraven said: But Aegon knowing about Azor Ahai, and thinking he or his lineage was going to be part of Azor Ahai, is not really a retcon at all... I'm fine with him being aware of these myths but making it his motivation for the conquest conflicts with what we are already told. So does knowing about the Others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I haven't seen any of the shows but people are saying that this 'Aegon's Prophecy' will be part of the books or are already treating it like a part of the books. The prophesy or prophesies about TPTWP and the 3-headed dragon, has always been part of the books, and is far older than Aegon I. The only question is, why are you referring to it as "Aegon's Prophesy"? Because that part at least is not from the books, nor has it ever been confirmed by GRRM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 That's not a retcon, it was always there, just too subtle for some people to see. The notion that this Conquest thing is a thing driven by mundane politics in a setting such as this was always a joke. 37 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that... LOL, what Dornish genocide? Aegon's entire First Dornish War was a joke. Yes, they killed some nobles and destroyed a lot of castles ... but it is Dornishmen who destroy the entire Reach army as well the Stormlanders earlier, crippling the highborn hostages upon their return. I'm sure some people occasionally burned when the dragons attacked castles ... but not many because they usually hid. Curled Finger, maesternewton and Morte 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, Gilbert Green said: The only question is, why are you referring to it as "Aegon's Prophesy"? Because people were talking about Aegon knowing about a prophecy in other book discussion threads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, Lord Varys said: Yes, they killed some nobles and destroyed a lot of castles Multiple villages are burned to the ground, they are specifically targeted, especially after Rhaenys dies... Dorne is described as a burning wasteland... Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 AGoT, Appendix, House Targaryen ”The Targaryen banner is a three-headed dragon, red on black, the three heads representing Aegon and his sisters. The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: Multiple villages are burned to the ground, they are specifically targeted, especially after Rhaenys dies... Dorne is described as a burning wasteland... Yes, but we don't hear about there being many casualties or 'a genocide'. Of course, Dorne is ruined because the constant threat of dragon attacks makes agriculture and economy and a normal life kind of hard. In fact, it isn't even much of a proper war after the original conquest failed. Aegon doesn't launch another invasion, after all. It is all hit-and-run and assassins and occasional dragon attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That's not a retcon, it was always there, just too subtle for some people to see. Mithras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 It would be a retcon, no doubt about it. And it would make all Targaryens look like complete imbeciles b/c in 300 yrs they did fuck all, and achieved even less. Mithras and Craving Peaches 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, Lord Varys said: Yes, but we don't hear about there being many casualties If a village is burned to the ground there will be casualties. 1 minute ago, Lord Varys said: a genocide'. A specific group of people, the Dornish, are being killed because they are Dornish, so it is a genocide. Maybe not intentional in terms of Aegon I understanding it in the modern term as such but it fits the definition. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Of course, Dorne is ruined because the constant threat of dragon attacks Dorne is not ruined because of the consent threat of dragon attacks it is ruined because of the constant dragon attacks. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That's not a retcon, it was always there, just too subtle for some people to see. Subtle as in non-existent? If people really did see this coming long ago I would love to see proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 42 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I haven't seen any of the shows but people are saying that this 'Aegon's Prophecy' will be part of the books or are already treating it like a part of the books. People stopped caring long ago about this being the book forum. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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