Star Wars: The Wrong Trousers

[Relic]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

and the two guys that attack Luke must have left that city on the spot and went right to Tatooine that very day.

what do you mean?

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, Relic said:

what do you mean?

The two random dudes who attack Luke in the bar and one gets his arm chopped off by Obi-Wan - we see them in a cameo on Jedha before it gets blown up.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

The two random dudes who attack Luke in the bar and one gets his arm chopped off by Obi-Wan - we see them in a cameo on Jedha before it gets blown up.

OH, right, but that's like days before the ending. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Leofric said:

Jyn obviously wanting to vindicate her father and prove that he was not just another evil Imperial scientist, but a man working on the inside against the Empire, plus there was an element of revenge for the deaths of her mother, father, and mentor Saw.    Cassian believed Jyn and wanted redemption for the many underhanded and questionable things he done in the name of the rebellion.  Chirrut and Baze had just experienced the power of the Death Star as it destroyed their home and believed it needed to be destroyed and had faith that this was the way.   Bodhi had basically already been recruited by Jyn's father, convinced that he had to do what he could to fight against the Empire.   Sergeant Melshi and the rest of the spies that joined them all had similar motivations as Cassian, they had been doing questionable things to support the rebellion and this was a more straight forward, black and white mission, they could feel good about.

Thanks for writing this so I didn't have to.  This time.  Until next time we reiterate this argument!

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

OH, right, but that's like days before the ending. 

Yea, but that places gets blown up hours after the fact and on a different planet.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

I believe Gareth Edwards said that the idea came from the editor, but he didn't believe that Disney would ever okay it... and then one day Kathleen Kennedy came in as they were editing, three or four months from release, and the editor mentioned the idea and she loved it. Two weeks later, they were at Pinewood filming it.

So, yes, it was a late addition.

I heard that Filoni actually directed the hallway scene

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but that places gets blown up hours after the fact and on a different planet.

According to semi-canon materials they were being pursued by some type of lawman/bounty hunter (one of the cool looking characters that has a blink and you miss it appearance) and were hurrying to take the next ship out of there when they literally bumped into Jyn and Andor

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I heard that Filoni actually directed the hallway scene

I believe Freddie Prinze Jr. was the source of that, and it was a rumor he was sharing since he himself wasn't involved in the filming. I've never seen it confirmed by someone actually involved in the filming.

I'm not sure I believe it. Edwards is literally in the scene, as one of the rebel soldiers, pulling the switch that frees the Tantive IV from the star cruiser.

ETA: Actually, the writer Gary Whitta, who co-wrote the film, said it was untrue and that Edwards directed the sequence.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ran

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Thank you for this explanation. I wish we didn't have to resort to another media to get explanations for a plot point.

I think it is a part of reaching a certain maturity of mind to not look for such things or care about them when you learn they do exist. It is one thing if a writer or director talks about plot holes and the like which are the result of cut or deleted scenes, or if he or she addresses real issues of that sort by flat-out telling you that in the movie this or that element makes no sense, but you can make it make sense the following way.

But having hired writers who basically do create promotional material 'resolve' a contradiction or make something make sense that doesn't in the book ... is just nonsense. It is disrespectful to the audience/reader.

And I'm saying this as a guy who actually greatly enjoys James Luceno's 'Cloak of Deception' - but the fact that TPM actually needs that book to make much sense politically does very badly reflect on George Lucas.

7 hours ago, Relic said:

Can you give us all the deets that led you write 3,000 words in you previous 2 posts?

Just get triggered by people who actually think RO is a good movie.

8 hours ago, Leofric said:

I disagree with the bolded, the movie outlined pretty much all of the members of Rogue One's reasons and motivations for joining the the mission.  Jyn obviously wanting to vindicate her father and prove that he was not just another evil Imperial scientist, but a man working on the inside against the Empire, plus there was an element of revenge for the deaths of her mother, father, and mentor Saw.    Cassian believed Jyn and wanted redemption for the many underhanded and questionable things he done in the name of the rebellion.  Chirrut and Baze had just experienced the power of the Death Star as it destroyed their home and believed it needed to be destroyed and had faith that this was the way.   Bodhi had basically already been recruited by Jyn's father, convinced that he had to do what he could to fight against the Empire.   Sergeant Melshi and the rest of the spies that joined them all had similar motivations as Cassian, they had been doing questionable things to support the rebellion and this was a more straight forward, black and white mission, they could feel good about.   Plus due to theirs and Cassian's backgrounds they would have found it easier to believe that Jyn's father had been been playing a long game to bring down the Empire, than the more straightforward leaders of the rebellion could. 

I just don't buy that. Or rather: Don't think it is a particularly convincing depiction how real people would actually behave in a similar situation. I mean, those guys are decidedly not heroes chosen by destiny. They aren't Luke or Leia or Han - not even Ahsoka or Ezra - so the existence of the Death Star should, more likely, cause them to run away and hide in a very deep hole rather than thinking they could take this thing head on.

The movie just regurgitates the silly 'random people are caught up in the plot and do what's written in the script for 'reasons'' formula that is standard in movies of that type ... which in a movie about a bunch of rebel operatives stealing the Death Star plans should never have been used. That would have been a movie to show political idealists sacrificing themselves for a political cause they believed it. There could have been room there, to a point, for cynical mercenaries, too, but it would have been the opportunity to show what the Rebellion was and what they could do ... and the opportunity to have randos do stuff.

(The silliest aspect of the ST is, of course, also the fact that randos show up to attack 'Palpatine' in the end when the last movie spent a lot of time and effort to hammer home the fact that randos and 'resistance allies' cared about as much for things as the ruin of Luke Skywalker did. In what kind of setting is that a believable or convincing scenario?)

And then there's the silly 'the Death Star plans are actually kept at a remote location' routine when, obviously, the Imperial Palace on Coruscant (or Tarkin's fortress on Eriadu) would have been a much more obvious location for something like that. But, obviously, such plans are digital and could thus be stored or kept at multiple locations, could be actually moved around a lot ... which means stealing - or rather: copying them - should have been a lot easier. I mean, secret project or not, they are building a battle station the size of a moon. Lots of people working on this project must have access to the fucking plans. So the obvious plan to gain access to the Death Star plans would have involved more stealth, more infiltration than the rather dumbed-down version they went with.

Basically, I'm complaining that this was the wrong type of movie for this kind of plot - and it also ruined the depiction of the Rebellion and the rebel leadership for good. The notion that the Rebellion needed the sacrifice of a bunch of nobodies who, for the most part, just signed off half a day ago or so to get their act together and do something feels silly and nonsensical. I cannot look Mon Mothma or Bail Organa look straight into the eye after that shit. They are laughingstocks now. Less effective as leaders than Stormtrooper armor is effective as armor...

That kind of thing bleeds into the depiction of Mon Mothma in Andor ... who has no clue what the actual Rebels actually do and whose 'leadership role' is basically that of a financier who is milked for money by a guy who doesn't tell her anything nor takes directives from her. And, of course, she has problems in her private life. Big deal. That would have been interesting if she actually had to hide substantial things from her husband and daughter ... not things that a well-meaning judge could interpret as tax evasion or embezzlement.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just get triggered by people who actually think RO is a good movie.

I’m triggered by your triggering.  I’d like to see your relative 1-10 rating of this same standard applied across the rest of the SW franchise offerings…because by all standards, I would say RO may be a better objective movie than a majority of the others, with the lens of nostalgia removed.  
 

“I think it would have been better the way I think it should have been” isn’t an objective stance or proof it’s not a good movie… it’s just like, your opinion, man.  

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

I’m triggered by your triggering.  I’d like to see your relative 1-10 rating of this same standard applied across the rest of the SW franchise offerings…because by all standards, I would say RO may be a better objective movie than a majority of the others, with the lens of nostalgia removed.

Honestly, I'm not doing ratings stuff ... and I'm not watching SW movies every other weekend so that I could do it now. A general thing for me, though, is that nostalgia has completely worn off for me, anyway. I think ANH is a slow 1970s bore of a movie whose great editing cannot make up for its slow pacing and - from a modern point of view - boring ending. (I usually fall asleep after Obi-Wan dies...) I'm not likely to watch that movie again soon. TESB and ROTJ are somewhat better.

The PT are mostly bad movies but I like them because I want to like them, because of the subject matter, not because they are great movies. They are, of course, better than the ST shitshow in the sense that they (try to) tell original stories rather than to rip off the OT.

7 hours ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

“I think it would have been better the way I think it should have been” isn’t an objective stance or proof it’s not a good movie… it’s just like, your opinion, man.  

Not pretending to be objective here unless I talk about very general aspects of film-making and storytelling.

I do think if you talk about a silly tie-in movie which really can't stand on its own feet then your own view of how this story should go does count. These people work in an established setting, after all. It is like getting a tie-in movie to 'The Godfather'. We could reasonably expect the makers to get tone, setting, characters, and plot right so the transition to the following movie is flawless. And that's just not the case here.

Not only does the Rebellion not give the impression to be a bunch of cowards driven by random idealists and cynical operatives who bloody their hands while nobody else is looking ... Tarkin also doesn't give the impression the Death Star wasn't his idea, that he wasn't fully on board with this project.

The idea that RO is a movie that's good at characterization, etc. is ludicrous. There is no ingenuity in the general plot, no new idea being used, it is a standard formula preying on nostalgia.

[Heartofice]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that RO is a movie that's good at characterization, etc. is ludicrous. There is no ingenuity in the general plot, no new idea being used, it is a standard formula preying on nostalgia.

I think there is a difference between 'preying on nostalgia' and simply honouring the source material and sticking closer to the look and feel of the OT. The Sequel Trilogy I would suggest could definitely be accused of preying on nostalgia, so much of it is 'OH LOOK, its someone you know!! Look!!!!' and many of the decisions seem to have been made as a cynical attempt to bring in older fans. Outside of a couple of scenes in RO I'm not sure that is really true and I think it tends to work as a standalone.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think there is a difference between 'preying on nostalgia' and simply honouring the source material and sticking closer to the look and feel of the OT. The Sequel Trilogy I would suggest could definitely be accused of preying on nostalgia, so much of it is 'OH LOOK, its someone you know!! Look!!!!' and many of the decisions seem to have been made as a cynical attempt to bring in older fans. Outside of a couple of scenes in RO I'm not sure that is really true and I think it tends to work as a standalone.

RO is no 'standalone movie'. A standalone movie does have a proper ending. It doesn't end with a cliffhanger.

The feel of the OT doesn't include an incompetent, craven Rebellion. Also, in the OT the Empire never sends the message the villains are effectively some scientist guy in a white cape. Insofar as the feeling is concerned, Vader is just one of many blood hounds of the Emperor and the Empire is a kraken with many arms. The last thing one expect Lucas' Vader doing is sitting around all alone in a castle at the end of the world.

Preying on the Tatooine feeling of 'backwater wasteland planet with weirdo cultures/beings' is just trying to rip off aspects of ANH rather than noticing/acknowledging that Lucas always aimed at introducing new looks, planets, etc.

I'm not saying that RO doesn't kind of fit into the OT setting. But the movie trivialized things. It ruined the Rebellion as an organization for the benefit of a bunch of dayfly characters which would all die, anyway. And it turned something that could have been a complex spy thriller thing into a silly heist movie.

Mon Mothma and Bail Organa and their allies are now fucking PJ Treebeard with Jyn and Cassian as Merry and Pippin. That is disgusting.

[Jaxom 1974]

Still can't figure out how Rogue One, "ruined the Rebellion as an organization" when there never was all that much structure to it from any and all information given about its make up in the original trilogy...

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Still can't figure out how Rogue One, "ruined the Rebellion as an organization" when there never was all that much structure to it from any and all information given about its make up in the original trilogy...

It is subtle, but it is there. The Rebels and their leaders in the OT actually are competent. Just think of the professional attitude of General Rieekan in TESB. Also, of course, Luke's wingmen in ANH. They are not a silly group of cravens who don't actually dare to oppose the Empire openly ... they fight it. Nothing in ANH indicates they needed some outsider's or low-level operative's input on the danger posed by the Death Star. That is like De Gaulle needing some random Frenchwoman's assuarance that the Nazis did indeed conquer and occupy France.

The time to have hand-wringing and procrastination among the people who would one day make up the Rebel Alliance would be around 10 BBY, say, or 7 BBY. But not like five minutes before ANH.

Even Luke Skywalker on distant Tatooine knows in the beginning of ANH that the Rebellion is a pretty big and good thing ... and everything is even more prominent if you consider the cut Biggs material. I guess Biggs now joined the Rebellion because he liked to talk about fighting the Empire, not because he actually wanted to do it because as per RO the Rebellion was actually against (actually) fighting the Empire. That doesn't fit well with a version where the Rebellion basically first acted/made itself known with the silly Death Star plans raid ... not to mention that this impression is also greatly at odds with basically the entire later plot of Rebels.

Mon Mothma and Bail Organa make it clear they will start building the Rebellion as early as the deleted scenes from ROTS. Are we to think all they accomplished was to have some kind of hologram debate society effectively 20 years later?

And how does all the general and troop thing we see in the OT - Generals Dodonna, Rieekan, Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and all the Commanders and Captains we meet - fit with an organization that clearly doesn't seem to have a clear command or military structure in RO? These people are so disorganized and pathetic that they need random volunteers and outsiders try something against the will of the 'leadership' when this organization would only have been viable if it had professionals for this kind of job. It is like a bunch of Ents needing some fucking child-like Hobbits showing them what an evil wizard does to their very own forest. It is just pathetic writing.

[sifth]

Truth be told, I think the fan service in the sequel trilogy, is much worse, than the fan service in Rogue One. Stuff like Rey using Luke's lightsaber, flying the Falcon, befriending Chewie and Han, and all that other stuff, made her feel less of an original character and more like someone who was forced to use someone else's stuff and friends, to be popular. With Rogue One all of the fan service felt more natural and just part of the universe.

Jyn's more or less making new friends, who weren't people we remember from a trilogy over 30 years ago. She wasn't a Jedi Knight, using the items, friends and skills of other characters to solve problems. It made her feel like her own person, which I liked a lot, while Rey just felt like Lady Luke, because Disney was too scared to make her anything less, heck she even takes his last name at the end of the film, despite only knowing him for a few days.

Edited April 28, 2023 by sifth

[Raja]

Rogue one is good, but I don't think the strengths in that movie are *any* of the characters, including Jyn - there's just enough there in all of them to make that movie work and they work well as an ensemble.

Ben Mendelsohn rules though, and Tudyk also stood out too.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Raja

[Corvinus85]

 

[Raja]

Saw seems be the go to guy people keep sticking into SW media if they need someone  ( Yes, I'm playing Jedi Fallen Order)

[RumHam]

5 minutes ago, Raja said:

Saw seems be the go to guy people keep sticking into SW media if they need someone  ( Yes, I'm playing Jedi Fallen Order)

He's probably the thing I found most disappointing about Rogue One. "Bad Rebel" is an interesting idea, as Star Wars goes. They kinda set him up as a rebel reflection of vader, with his robot parts, willingness to torture and breathing problems. 

But then no, he just fucks off and basically suicides. (you have robot legs, dude.) and so he's reduced to just an obstacle for the gang to overcome. A couple more scenes and he could have had an impact.