Star Wars: The Wrong Trousers

[Jaxom 1974]

Except in Rebels, there are Rebel cells and factions...after Scarif, there is a Rebel Alliance...and again, the problem with that isn't the concept... it's absolutely plausible that the events set in motion within the deleted scenes of ROTS and Andor and The Bad Batch all point to a galaxy wide set of circumstances that see resistance to Palpatine and his Empire, yet it isn't fully integrated into one alliance... it's the ultimately the actual timeline established by making Vader Luke's father that causes things to be done, such as Scarif being a battle and intelligence coup, that forges those cells and factions into an Alliance, yet it coalesces within hours of that battle...

Edited April 30, 2023 by Jaxom 1974

[hauberk]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Except in Rebels, there are Rebel cells and factions...after Scarif, there is a Rebel Alliance...and again, the problem with that isn't the concept... it's absolutely plausible that the events set in motion within the deleted scenes of ROTS and Andor and The Bad Batch all point to a galaxy wide set of circumstances that see resistance to Palpatine and his Empire, yet it isn't fully integrated into one alliance... it's the ultimately the actual timeline established by making Vader Luke's father that causes things to be done, such as Scarif being a battle and intelligence coup, that forges those cells and factions into an Alliance, yet it coalesces within hours of that battle...

Rather like the various factions of French maquis and Italian partisans during WWII.  Each doing their own thing against the Germans while jockeying for position amongst themselves until necessity forced closer coordination. 

[mormont]

16 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

That all works on a bunch of levels...but I do admit that it also comes into the trouble of how the timeline works. The ultimate decision to have Luke and Leia be the children of Anakin Skywalker and confining the Empire to an age of only 19 years at the time of A New Hope really does stunt some things...

The biggest problem Star Wars has in general as a franchise is being wedded to some bad choices Lucas made without any real thought for their implications, because he never really imagined they'd be important decades later - which was in turn because he couldn't really have known, though he might have hoped, how significant the franchise would be decades later. But then, the same can be said of the early days of the major comics companies.

[Jaxom 1974]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

The biggest problem Star Wars has in general as a franchise is being wedded to some bad choices Lucas made without any real thought for their implications, because he never really imagined they'd be important decades later - which was in turn because he couldn't really have known, though he might have hoped, how significant the franchise would be decades later. But then, the same can be said of the early days of the major comics companies.

Yes. Agree. It's why I find it silly to nitpick certain aspects of the story when someone like Filoni comes along and tries (generally successfully) to make sense among the choices made in the early days before anyone thought about "continuity"...Manny Coto was doing something similar with the fourth season of Star Trek Enterprise, and it's a shame he didn't get another season or two...

I do think the father/son decision was the most egregious one though, as it tied the entire story to a short window...

[VigoTheCarpathian]

26 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Yes. Agree. It's why I find it silly to nitpick certain aspects of the story when someone like Filoni comes along and tries (generally successfully) to make sense among the choices made in the early days before anyone thought about "continuity"

I agree with this - I understand gripes about the characterization and consistency, but i don’t think any of the narratives are going to be 100% coherent or satisfactory, because of all the issues raised here.

I had to justify the RO Yavin scene, logic being “Seems like the full Rebellion complement isn’t here, especially those loyal to mon mothma, so they don’t want to risk a major action - or they aren’t yet galvanized, because this is a different Rebel Alliance than what we saw in ANH”.  It’s not ideal that the audience has to do this, but it worked for me and didn’t make RO a “bad movie”.

Not going to take bets, but I’m assuming the rise of the First Order (another thing I personally didn’t think was great about the ST, same big bad) and the fall of the New Republic/whatever they are setting up in the Mandalorian and Asohka are going to be equally or more disappointing.

Edited April 30, 2023 by VigoTheCarpathian
Clarity

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Except in Rebels, there are Rebel cells and factions...after Scarif, there is a Rebel Alliance...and again, the problem with that isn't the concept... it's absolutely plausible that the events set in motion within the deleted scenes of ROTS and Andor and The Bad Batch all point to a galaxy wide set of circumstances that see resistance to Palpatine and his Empire, yet it isn't fully integrated into one alliance... it's the ultimately the actual timeline established by making Vader Luke's father that causes things to be done, such as Scarif being a battle and intelligence coup, that forges those cells and factions into an Alliance, yet it coalesces within hours of that battle...

Nah, the problem is to have the Rebel Alliance only form in this ridiculous way in RO. And, of course, Bail and Mon starting to build an organization which then isn't in charge of things 20 years later ... and which needs to be dragged screaming into actually doing something that has an impact. It makes no sense. Those people opposed Palpatine since before he became Emperor. They don't need him committing atrocities or building Death Stars to know what he is doing is WRONG!

Vader being Luke's father is also no problem in this regard. That causes other problems with the timeline ... but RO's problems are its own. Before that movie nobody had reason to believe the Rebel Alliance only formed when some randos convinced them to steal the Death Star plans. That was the decisions the writers of that movie. And it sucks.

1 minute ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

I had to plaster over the RO Yavin, logic being “Seems like the full Rebellion complement isn’t here, especially those loyal to non mothma, so they don’t want to risk a major action - or they aren’t yet galvanized, because this is different than what we saw in ANH”.  It’s not ideal that the audience has to do this, but it worked for me and didn’t make RO a “bad movie”.

RO is a bad movie because of the clichéd simplified story it tells, not because of worldbuilding problems. It is a story where random people are dragged into an operation which should be done by people with deeply seated political convictions ... following the playbook and direction of a paramilitary group of professional insurrectionists.

I mean, nobody can really tell me that the script where the 'special hero' and his sidekicks need to 'convince' the actual professional good guys to do something good is the basis for a good story. It ain't. It is old and stale and bad.

1 minute ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

Not going to take bets, but I’m assuming the rise of the First Order (another thing I personally didn’t think was great about the ST, same big bad) and the fall of the New Republic/whatever they are setting up in the Mandalorian and Asohka are going to be equally or more disappointing.

I actually don't give a damn how that travesty of corrupt and ineffective government they sell us as 'the New Republic' fails.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, the problem is to have the Rebel Alliance only form in this ridiculous way in RO. And, of course, Bail and Mon starting to build an organization which then isn't in charge of things 20 years later ... and which needs to be dragged screaming into actually doing something that has an impact.

**Opinions that would be nice if LordVarys was the screenwriter**

I actually don't give a damn how that travesty of corrupt and ineffective government they sell us as 'the New Republic' fails.

I didn’t get the impression that the Alliance was formed in that scene, only that the part/faction of it pictured in RO wasn’t willing to move forward on a rogue mission, kicked off by their intelligence wing (not their full military leadership) en masse.    It worked fine for me and others but clearly things would have been different if you were in charge of “Rogue One:  Rainbow Six and The Day of the Jackal in Space: A Star Wars story”

I’m having a hard time seeing why you give a damn about this inconsistency that was “sold”, and not what will be “sold” about the continuity after the OT.  It’s a given that the way the timelines and characterizations hang together aren’t great, because of some pretty bent tentpoles in the universe.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

I didn’t get the impression that the Alliance was formed in that scene, only that the part/faction of it pictured in RO wasn’t willing to move forward on a rogue mission, kicked off by their intelligence wing (not their full military leadership) en masse.    It worked fine for me and others but clearly things would have been different if you were in charge of “Rogue One:  Rainbow Six and The Day of the Jackal in Space: A Star Wars story”

You can pretend that not all relevant Alliance leaders are on Yavin or in the holo conference ... but what would be the point of that? Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are there, meaning the leaders of the faction represented by Leia Organa in the OT as well as the people at Yavin which defy the Death Star in ANH.

The movie does want to give us the impression that the relevant/prominent leaders of the Rebellion are there - either physically or in hologram.

[Kalbear]

Are you still arguing about the notion that andor and RO are unrealistic and make an unsympathetic rebellion despite it being written by a guy who has a degree in history and specialized in researching real rebellions?

Just checking 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Are you still arguing about the notion that andor and RO are unrealistic and make an unsympathetic rebellion despite it being written by a guy who has a degree in history and specialized in researching real rebellions?

Just checking 

I don't care about the guy's degrees.

And I never said that Andor was unrealistic in its portrayal of rebellions ... but it doesn't really portray the Star Wars galaxy the way it is.

I'd also say that real world shit has little to no place in Star Wars. This is a fantasy world where the Rebels are the good guys ... we don't need gritty realism messing that up too much.

RO sucks as a movie completely independent of Andor. Although the silly Mon Mothma portrayal from RO was transferred to Andor. Now she is a craven woman who doesn't even really know what her own cousin does with the money she gives to an organization she intended to, you know, lead back in ROTS. Brilliant writing.

[Leofric]

I think it make sense that the events on Yavin surrounding Rogue One forced the final coalescence of the different rebel factions into a single Rebel Alliance.    The revelations of the existence of the Empire's Death Star is a pivot point in history.     It made the success of the individual alliance cells meaningless, including the Liberation of Lothal.     Liberating a single planet from the Empire is worthless if the Empire's response is to send the Death Star and obliterate that newly freed planet.  And that might have been Lothal's fate if the actions of Rogue One and the subsequent Battle of Yavin had failed.  

With the the rebel factions becoming aware of the Death Star, they only had two choices: join together, so that the loss of a single planet would not spell the end of their individual rebellions, or give up and stop fighting against the Empire's rule. 

 

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

RO sucks as a movie completely independent of Andor. Although the silly Mon Mothma portrayal from RO was transferred to Andor. Now she is a craven woman who doesn't even really know what her own cousin does with the money she gives to an organization she intended to, you know, lead back in ROTS. Brilliant writing.

Craven? She's involved in a hidden operation in the Empire's capital where she knows she's being watched by enemy agents all the time. And what in the OT gave you the impression that she is some kind of Robert the Bruce leader type, i.e. charge in battle alongside your troops?

[Kalbear]

I also think that obliterating Alderran coalesced folks in a way that other actions did not. Which is a central theme - that the empire does worse and worse things and more systems go to the rebellion. The rebels are clearly stronger after Yavin too. 

IMO, that would be a great next series or movie - showing the in-between of the rebellion during anh and tesb or tesb & rotj. The latter may make more sense because we know that our heroes aren't really doing much for the rebellion during that time so we don't have to be constantly asking why Luke, Leia and han aren't there.

[IlyaP]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

RO sucks as a movie completely independent of Andor. Although the silly Mon Mothma portrayal from RO was transferred to Andor. Now she is a craven woman who doesn't even really know what her own cousin does with the money she gives to an organization she intended to, you know, lead back in ROTS. Brilliant writing.

*shrug*

I enjoyed it. But you know what they said with art - degustibus non est disputandum. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Craven? She's involved in a hidden operation in the Empire's capital where she knows she's being watched by enemy agents all the time. And what in the OT gave you the impression that she is some kind of Robert the Bruce leader type, i.e. charge in battle alongside your troops?

She clearly doesn't lead or direct in RO. I never said she should lead from the front or anything ... but she is the one who leads the Rebellion to victory. And you just don't see this in RO. It is even worse since there was actually little reason to have her physically there, on Yavin. She isn't there five days later when the Death Star arrives, so the way to go with things there should have been to either not go to Yavin at all and show the rebel base on Dantooine ... or have her merely as a hologram presence, too.

Regarding Andor ... yeah, yeah, she is watched and all, but she is just a terrorist financier, she doesn't direct her cells. Which means she has effectively no real power. The show even addresses this when she confronts Luthen about things. Which is a disgrace if we are to see as the woman who started this entire movement (along with Bail Organa, of course).

Mon Mothma's plotline in Andor would have been much more meaningful if we had seen her actually directing rebel missions, moving pawns, sacrificing pieces ... having a plan. We could have still had Luthen as her go-between, etc.

Also, it would have been great to see her having a very different public persona - like Darth Sidious is playing the role of good guy Palpatine in the PT - which actually fools the ISB and other Imperials.

[Corvinus85]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She clearly doesn't lead or direct in RO. I never said she should lead from the front or anything ... but she is the one who leads the Rebellion to victory. And you just don't see this in RO. It is even worse since there was actually little reason to have her physically there, on Yavin. She isn't there five days later when the Death Star arrives, so the way to go with things there should have been to either not go to Yavin at all and show the rebel base on Dantooine ... or have her merely as a hologram presence, too.

It's been a while since I've seen RO, but isn't she involved in the Jyn/Galen Erso plot? She seemed to do more as a leader than others, including Bail Organa. When Jyn and Cassian lead the attack on Scarif, the Rebels comm officer back on Yavin runs to her to tell her of the news and all the officers there look to her for the approval to launch the fighters. (Admiral Raddus had been the only one that had defied other leaders and was already ready to fight) 

But how much of Mon Mothma do we know from the OT? She only appeared in ROTJ. You seem to expect her to be THE LEADER. But does the Rebel Alliance leadership structure even work that way? Who promotes officers? How the hell did Lando and Han get promoted to general?

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, it would have been great to see her having a very different public persona - like Darth Sidious is playing the role of good guy Palpatine in the PT - which actually fools the ISB and other Imperials.

Heh, she says exactly that in one Andor's episodes, I think in that scene when she approaches her old banker friend. She says Palpatine taught her how to behave in public. She does have a different persona, she attends useless charity events, and parties and government functions. But she also has to maintain this persona in front of her husband and daughter.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Rhom]

18 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I also think that obliterating Alderran coalesced folks in a way that other actions did not. Which is a central theme - that the empire does worse and worse things and more systems go to the rebellion. The rebels are clearly stronger after Yavin too. 

IMO, that would be a great next series or movie - showing the in-between of the rebellion during anh and tesb or tesb & rotj. The latter may make more sense because we know that our heroes aren't really doing much for the rebellion during that time so we don't have to be constantly asking why Luke, Leia and han aren't there.

The tighter you squeeze your fist, the more systems will slip between your fingers.

Its almost like the movie already addressed this, isn't it?

[HokieStone]

18 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

IMO, that would be a great next series or movie - showing the in-between of the rebellion during anh and tesb or tesb & rotj. The latter may make more sense because we know that our heroes aren't really doing much for the rebellion during that time so we don't have to be constantly asking why Luke, Leia and han aren't there.

According to the comic series, they're doing A LOT during those time periods.  I think the comics are supposed to be part of the new canon...but it's ridiculous, really - the comic stories are, in a sense, much more grandiose and larger in scale than the actual movies.
 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

But how much of Mon Mothma do we know from the OT? She only appeared in ROTJ. You seem to expect her to be THE LEADER. But does the Rebel Alliance leadership structure even work that way? Who promotes officers? How the hell did Lando and Han get promoted to general?

Obviously I wanted her to be more relevant. I mean, she leads the Alliance, not Leia. But we know how Leia bears herself in the OT, right? So should Leia's boss be like the Mon Mothma we get in Andor and RO ... or a person who is actually in charge and runs things? I know what my answer is to this.

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Heh, she says exactly that in one Andor's episodes, I think in that scene when she approaches her old banker friend. She says Palpatine taught her how to behave in public. She does have a different persona, she attends useless charity events, and parties and government functions. But she also has to maintain this persona in front of her husband and daughter.

Yeah, but Palpatine actually does order around his underlings as Darth Sidious ... Mon Mothma's real persona is that of a terrorist financier, not that of a leader of a terrorist/rebel organization. I'm fine with her being in the Senate, maintaining an loyalist Imperial facade. But this could all be actually more meaningful. She could have been much closer to the Imperial elite, milking them for information. She could have real sway in the Senate with crucial factions so that her legitimate power base was something Palpatine's cronies couldn't just ignore.

Instead all we get for his family drama which we don't really see through (Are her husband/daughter really totally ignorant about what she does? Does she have to hide things from them because they might betray her or does she simply want to protect them?) Her public political efforts are a joke.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, HokieStone said:

According to the comic series, they're doing A LOT during those time periods.  I think the comics are supposed to be part of the new canon...but it's ridiculous, really - the comic stories are, in a sense, much more grandiose and larger in scale than the actual movies.
 

Eh. I figure anything not on Disney directly is ripe for changing if they want to. Though that kind of makes me think even more that it's a good spot - because you can even reference what's going on as an excuse to not feature the heroes.