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"Woke" - what does it really mean?


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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

So while I admit there are elements of the right that over use the term woke and misapply it, that is in part due to the way the left misrepresents the objections to its positions 

Yeah.  I remember a few days ago there was this poster in the UK thread that provided a definition of "woke" that ludicrously misapplied and misunderstood the term.  Not ALL on the right do that, sure.

Again, the idea that "wokism" deals in "illiberalism" or "authoritarianism" or "religious doctrine" is a conservative conjuring to make everybody afraid.  It is absolute, unmitigated horseshit.  And that's why people "care about this topic."  Because after thirty years it's really frustrating watching the right continue to lie through their teeth in such a shamelessly pathetic way and get away with it.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah.  I remember a few days ago there was this poster in the UK thread that provided a definition of "woke" that ludicrously misapplied and misunderstood the term.  Not ALL on the right do that, sure.

Again, the idea that "wokism" deals in "illiberalism" or "authoritarianism" or "religious doctrine" is a conservative conjuring to make everybody afraid.  It is absolute, unmitigated horseshit.  And that's why people "care about this topic."  Because after thirty years it's really frustrating watching the right continue to lie through their teeth in such a shamelessly pathetic way and get away with it.

Except it’s well understood as a meaning for that word by many people. So how can it be the ‘wrong’ meaning? This is my whole point. You don’t own a word. It’s a method of communication, it means what people think it means.

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.  There are millions of people who have drawn a different conclusion about political discourse, policy and which side is more destructive/dangerous.  It also seems to pre suppose that the intentions of conservatives are not 'generally well placed' which is also an opinion not a fact.

And when those same millions show you they're not being honest actors, not even trying to understand another's' perspective, what then? 

Also, sorry not sorry, those who loudly claim to love Jesus, but basically hate everything he taught, want to moralize me and then say I need to live under their thumb, fuck them. And that's what conservatism has largely become, at least in the context of the US. 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Yeah.  I remember a few days ago there was this poster in the UK thread that provided a definition of "woke" that ludicrously misapplied and misunderstood the term.  Not ALL on the right do that, sure.

Again, the idea that "wokism" deals in "illiberalism" or "authoritarianism" or "religious doctrine" is a conservative conjuring to make everybody afraid.  It is absolute, unmitigated horseshit.  And that's why people "care about this topic."  Because after thirty years it's really frustrating watching the right continue to lie through their teeth in such a shamelessly pathetic way and get away with it.

Again, this is an opinion, not a fact.  There is, in my opinion, absolutely a strain of progressivism that is illiberal and authoritarian, and that shares many characteristics with religious zealotry.

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Just now, Heartofice said:

Except it’s well understood as a meaning for that word by many people. So how can it be the ‘wrong’ meaning? This is my whole point. You don’t own a word. It’s a method of communication, it means what people think it means.

Because the people that "understand" the word to mean that are either manipulating people or being manipulated.  The meaning of language matters.  If it didn't, we wouldn't bother writing a dictionary in the first place.  And the exploitation of political language matters.  If it didn't, we would have had demagogues arousing publics to support tyranny throughout history under false pretenses.

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And when those same millions show you they're not being honest actors, not even trying to understand another's' perspective, what then? 

Also, sorry not sorry, those who loudly claim to love Jesus, but basically hate everything he taught, want to moralize me and then say I need to live under their thumb, fuck them. And that's what conservatism has largely become, at least in the context of the US. 

What does Jesus have to do with anything?  Do you really think that all conservatives are Christian fundamentalists?  I mean, I don't even believe in god anymore, I was never religious, let alone a Christian fundamentalist, I even at one time was a Democrat.  And I would say right back at ya in terms of your side wanting everyone to live under their thumb, agree to their definitions and priorities.

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2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

having defined that word thusly, it is now applied to all sorts of reasonable ideas that right wing operatives want to stigmatize, like "slavery existed and it was pretty brutal" or "systemic racism exists" or "gay people and trans people should be allowed to live their lives in peace."

True—Lightwear(a kid’s movie) got grilled as being woke for briefly showing two women kissing.

 

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Again, this is an opinion, not a fact.  There is, in my opinion, absolutely a strain of progressivism that is illiberal and authoritarian, and that shares many characteristics with religious zealotry.

Of course definitions of language is an opinion, not a scientific "fact."  But just because you can have your opinions on something doesn't mean those opinions aren't demonstrably wrong.  Opinions are wrong all the time!

Edited by DMC
aren't not are
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32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It really isn't though. I'm not going to lie, there are many on the left who are annoying as fuck and fail to communicate in the best way, but their intentions are generally well placed. The counter from the right is very rarely so and we have a universe of evidence to draw from that shows the problem is pretty disproportionate and conclusive. 

 

Just yesterday I saw a Jeep with bumper stickers for Trump-DeSantis 2024, and "proud to be everything Iiberals hate" and a decal of Calvin pissing on Biden's name. The "pissing liberals off" or"making liberals cry" trope is pretty common even in Massachusetts. Forgive my potential bias, but I don't see anything like that from "the left." Certainly there have been bumper stickers mocking Trump or other Republican leaders, but I don't see anything like "proud to offend conservatives."

 

27 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well sorta. I’m not sure what the point of any of this is. It just seems like recriminations about something that doesn’t matter. Two groups of people use a word different ways. So what?

As many others have said, it's become a way to stigmatize and attack people. I care about the misuse of the word, and so I participate in these discussions. If you're so above it all, why are you here?

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Because the people that "understand" the word to mean that are either manipulating people or being manipulated.  The meaning of language matters.  If it didn't, we wouldn't bother writing a dictionary in the first place.  And the exploitation of political language matters.  If it didn't, we would have had demagogues arousing publics to support tyranny throughout history under false pretenses.


 

Right and that language is flexible and changes all the time is something well established. 

The point is, there is an extremist element on the left that is kind of illiberal and dogmatic and doesn’t tolerate dissent , and the word that the right uses for that is ‘woke’.  Would it please you if they just used another word for this phenomenon? or is it that you don’t want anyone talking about the sillier parts of the left? 
 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Or saying ‘trans people just want to get on with their lives’ without acknowledging the complexities that arise from that, is another example of misrepresenting what ‘the right’ is objecting to.

What “complexities” arises from that?

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10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The point is, there is an extremist element on the left that is kind of illiberal and dogmatic and doesn’t tolerate dissent , and the word that the right uses for that is ‘woke’.  Would it please you if they just used another word for this phenomenon?

....Uh, yes, it would please me if they were accurate with their terminology instead of trying to scare people.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Of course definitions of language is an opinion, not a scientific "fact."  But just because you can have your opinions on something doesn't mean those opinions aren't demonstrably wrong.  Opinions are wrong all the time!

Often I see people retreat into moral relativism and solipsism when they don’t feel comfortable in defending a position directly because of the lack of evidence for it or how repugnant the position is. 

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19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:


 

Right and that language is flexible and changes all the time is something well established. 

The point is, there is an extremist element on the left that is kind of illiberal and dogmatic and doesn’t tolerate dissent , and the word that the right uses for that is ‘woke’.  Would it please you if they just used another word for this phenomenon? or is it that you don’t want anyone talking about the sillier parts of the left? 
 

So is it a characteristic of the illiberal and dogmatic left to teach that slavery occurred, or for The Little Mermaid to be black, or for people to put their pronouns in their email signature? Because that's where "woke" is being applied these days 

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26 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Except it’s well understood as a meaning for that word by many people. So how can it be the ‘wrong’ meaning? This is my whole point. You don’t own a word. It’s a method of communication, it means what people think it means.

 

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:


 

Right and that language is flexible and changes all the time is something well established. 

The point is, there is an extremist element on the left that is kind of illiberal and dogmatic and doesn’t tolerate dissent , and the word that the right uses for that is ‘woke’.  Would it please you if they just used another word for this phenomenon? or is it that you don’t want anyone talking about the sillier parts of the left? 
 

JFC.

 

Yea, language is flexible. There is a HUGE difference between organic evolution over time reflective of increasing/broadening scope and a deliberate attempt to undermine the legitimacy of segments of society and their ability to be/feel included. The word Jew has a meaning. Had a meaning, changing somewhat over time, for centuries. 
 

Then suddenly the Nazis used that word differently, and that was something that happened quickly, not by those it describes and with a specific malign purpose.
 

Can you spot the difference? Just language doing it’s thing, right?

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