"Woke" - what does it really mean?

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I think part of it has to do with being overly self righteous, sometimes to the point of near insanity. The recent Harry Potter Legacy boycott was an example of this, where you had people bullying and harassing others on twitch to the point of basically becoming just as bad, if not worse, than the people they were claiming to fight against. I mean this was over a video game of all things.

You mean the kind of self-righteousness like the concerted efforts to boycott and right out kill a Tolkien inspired television series, sending those who worked on it death threats, etc., because reasons Black elves reasons women being uppity reasons So Evily Bad We Must Get Off Streaming? The kind that thinks bombing women's health clinics is justified because I Believe in Life Above All Things?  Putting women in prison because I believe in life above all things, while denying them life-saving health care? Killing people dancing happily in a gay club because I believe above all things They Are Evil and disobeying God's laws? Killing people who are Jewish because reasons?  Killing people who are not White because they aren't as good as White people, particularly White Men?  That kind of self-righteousness carried unto fanaticism?

[Zorral]

53 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

they can cripple you in away that the DeSantis's of the world never could

That is so silly I don't know where to start.  DeSantis can and does put people in prison and worse. The people you are talking about can't do anything like that.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

Good gods, yes. I think self-righteousness is a common companion of utter certainty; after all, if I know The Truth, isn't it my right--nay, my duty!--to spread the good word? I move in some pretty leftist circles, and I cannot begin to relate all of the inanity, insufferability and outright cruelty I have seen on display over some leftist doctine or other.

I come from a left family myself and mostly always favor the views of liberals over conservatives. That being said, several of my very close friends are conservatives and I fully respect their choice to believe in what they wish to believe, just like they respect mine. I've known them for years and I know them to be good people; heck most of my conservative friends aren't even white, ones a Native American and the other two are Hispanic. Anyone who believes all people on the other side of the political isle are evil, is what I'd consider "woke"

Edited April 14 by sifth

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You mean the kind of self-righteousness like the concerted efforts to boycott and right out kill a Tolkien inspired television series, sending those who worked on it death threats, etc., because reasons Black elves reasons women being uppity reasons So Evily Bad We Must Get Off Streaming? The kind that thinks bombing women's health clinics is justified because I Believe in Life Above All Things?  Putting women in prison because I believe in life above all things, while denying them life-saving health care? Killing people dancing happily in a gay club because I believe above all things They Are Evil and disobeying God's laws? Killing people who are Jewish because reasons?  Killing people who are not White because they aren't as good as White people, particularly White Men?  That kind of self-righteousness carried unto fanaticism?

Your trying to start a straw man argument. One side doing something evil, is not an excuse for the other side to do something just as bad. Thinking that way, is the very definition of insanity.

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

he other side to do something just as bad

You have just made that up because there is no proof, nothing anywhere in the news of this 'other side' doing ANY OF THE SHYTE Your Side does every single day in multiple multiples.

Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports Team lost.  Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports team won. 

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports Team lost.  Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports team won. 

Are you saying this behavior has a political valence? I'm confused.

[Zorral]

Are you saying othering in order to commit violence is political?

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Are you saying this behavior has a political valence?

I'm confused. 

[TrackerNeil]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I mean, this seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You're the one fighting the left and employing DeSantis' tack of inaccurate over-generalization to do so.

Let me give you a concrete example of the harm I mean.

In Philadelphia, Pride used to be administrated by a group known as Philly Pride Presents. Led by Frannie Price, PPP made sure Pride happened, year after year, for decades. Then, in June 2021, the group disbanded over a few Facebook posts that some saw as insensitive. I think there was some justification for this viewpoint, but I'm far from certain we needed to lose PPP over it. In any case, PPP sank, and there was no Pride that year. There's not a conservative walking who could have ended Philly Pride, but the left managed it within a few months. That's harm, and not just to me, but to the entire gay/lesbian community.

I'm not often compared to Ron DeSantis, which I guess makes him a Medicare-for-All, abortion-without-apology-and-on-demand, UBI-supporting kind of guy. You learn something new every day.

Edited April 14 by TrackerNeil

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You have just made that up because there is no proof, nothing anywhere in the news of this 'other side' doing ANY OF THE SHYTE Your Side does every single day in multiple multiples.

Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports Team lost.  Let's throw in beating up people, trashing stadiums and neighborhoods because Your Sports team won. 

What are you even talking about. You're honestly not even making sense to me at this point. I'm liberal yoyo and always have been, but I don't like when I see extremists on my side acting just as bad, as the people on the right and never have. Antifa is just as bad as the Proud Boys in my mind and always has been, because all forms of extremism are wrong.

Edited April 14 by sifth

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

What are you even talking about. You're honestly not even making sense to me at this point. I'm liberal yoyo and always have been, but I don't like when I see extremists on my side acting just as bad, as the people on the right and never have. Antifa is just as bad the Proud Boys in my mind and always has been, because all forms of extremism are wrong.

You are not making sense, if you are equating what the Proud Boys did -- and do.  And you have conveniently ignored the proven facts that much of the extreme behavior attributed to that thing that doesn't even exist as either a movement or organization was false flag action perpetrated by Proud Boys and so many of the other like groups out there.  Charlottesville was NOT progressives but planned and perpetrated by the ilks of the PB, who btw love to howl about 'woke' and 'CRT'.  These have been proven in courts of law. The so-called antifa hasn't ever been in a court of law.

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You are not making sense

The feeling is mutual.

Edited April 14 by sifth

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

What are you even talking about. You're honestly not even making sense to me at this point. I'm liberal yoyo and always have been, but I don't like when I see extremists on my side acting just as bad, as the people on the right and never have. Antifa is just as bad as the Proud Boys in my mind and always has been, because all forms of extremism are wrong.

If you mean those out west using “black block” tactics and targeting right wing protests with violence… I don’t know that they are properly considered “left wing”.  As I understand it they are primarily anarchists located in Portland…

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If you mean those out west using “black block” tactics and targeting right wing protests with violence… I don’t know that they are properly considered “left wing”.  As I understand it they are primarily anarchists located in Portland…

True enough, but I can't be certain.

[Ormond]

6 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Let me give you a concrete example of the harm I mean.

In Philadelphia, Pride used to be administrated by a group known as Philly Pride Presents. Led by Frannie Price, PPP made sure Pride happened, year after year, for decades. Then, in June 2021, the group disbanded over a few Facebook posts that some saw as insensitive. I think there was some justification for this viewpoint, but I'm far from certain we needed to lose PPP over it. In any case, PPP sank, and there was no Pride that year. There's not a conservative walking who could have ended Philly Pride, but the left managed it within a few months. That's harm, and not just to me, but to the entire gay/lesbian community.

 

Was there a Pride celebration in Philadelphia in 2022?  

This does seem sad. I think something like this is probably more likely to happen in the Northesast or California.  In most of the rest of the country I think the GLBTQ community would be less likely to let something like this happen precisely because they'd feel more hostility from those outside the group. 

[Week]

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Anyone who believes all people on the other side of the political isle are evil, is what I'd consider "woke"

This is simply incorrect. You can chose to believe this if you want but it isn't supported by any logic or reasoning.

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Your trying to start a straw man argument. One side doing something evil, is not an excuse for the other side to do something just as bad. Thinking that way, is the very definition of insanity.

That would be whataboutism. I'm not sure how you define insanity but it seems to be just as incorrect as your other definitions.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Also, I'll thank you not to compare me to Ron DeSantis, which is a bit insulting. I'm treating you with respect, and I'd like the same. 

I am comparing you to Ron DeSantis in emphasizing that you are playing into and employing his tactics in weaponizing and bastardizing the term "woke."  Namely, by inaccurately over-generalizing how widespread the type of "wokism" you describe exists.  Which -- as you yourself intimated -- is a great way for the left to attack themselves.  I'm not going to apologize for that, because that is demonstrably your argumentation in this thread.

I don't know much about the circumstances regarding PPP - albeit I understand it returned this past June with new organizers. 

What I do know is the importance to always keep asymmetric polarization in mind - particularly when we're talking about the weaponization of political terminology.  Because that is part and parcel of how the right is able to remain electorally competitive while continually going off the deep end to become more authoritarian and undemocratic. 

Woke and "wokeism" has an actual definition -- which even Ron DeSantis' lawyer agrees with!  You have chosen to conflate that with a small amount of people that apply this is in a "religious doctrine" manner.  The amount of people who do this is decidedly small.  And much more importantly, these people pale not only in comparison to the amount of people espousing illiberal attitudes on the right, but also the actual power the amount of power the latter employs in government and media.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Week said:

This is simply incorrect. You can chose to believe this if you want but it isn't supported by any logic or reasoning.

That would be whataboutism. I'm not sure how you define insanity but it seems to be just as incorrect as your other definitions.

Apparently two wrongs make a right, in your mind set. Given how I'm so wrong about everything and all.

[TrackerNeil]

6 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Was there a Pride celebration in Philadelphia in 2022?  

This does seem sad. I think something like this is probably more likely to happen in the Northesast or California.  In most of the rest of the country I think the GLBTQ community would be less likely to let something like this happen precisely because they'd feel more hostility from those outside the group. 

There was, yes, but it was run by the PHL Pride Collective, and was much scaled back. It had to be, because the new organizers were much less inclusive than PPP in terms of how the event would be run, and much less well heeled. They refused any corporate sponsorship, which sounds nice until you have to, you know, try to pay for the myriad services required. (PHL eventually accepted these sponsorships, but they refused to disclose just how much money was accepted, and from whom.) In addition, PHL demanded that the event be focused on a very specific vision of social justice: anti-capitalism, anti-police, centered on POCs, etc. I am sure many agreed with that vision, but it's not exactly wide-open inclusive.

This isn't to say that PPP was above reproach. Franny Price regarded herself as a totem of the local gay community and acted like it, and some mistakes were made. But there is no way that any right-winger could have done the damage to Pride that the left inflicted.

(I think something similar happened in Boston, but I can't say I know the details so I will leave it at that.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Week said:

This is simply incorrect. You can chose to believe this if you want but it isn't supported by any logic or reasoning.

That is your response to this:

Quote

Anyone who believes all people on the other side of the political isle are evil, is what I'd consider "woke"

I can see that Sifth is being broad in Sifth’s comment… but aren’t you too?  Is it possible for everyone who disagrees with you to be “evil”… I just have to doubt that… there are far too many gray areas for me to believe everyone who disagrees with me on an issue is “evil”.

Perhaps with few exceptions like people who believe unprovoked violence can be justified or people who believe kids can consent to sexual activity but even those can sometimes be chaulked up to mental illness or being raised in a cult like environment.  I have a hard time with lableing any full group of people as “evil” ab initio.

Edited April 14 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

Show me right this minute anything your antifa legendarium has accomplished that comes anywhere near the actual, present harm and damage the forced labor fanatics have accomplished with the determination to eliminate by law all sorts of reproductive medical procedures, medications, and even legislating spying on women and imprisoning them.

That you equate a perhaps something by somebody who doesn't exist with this doesn't make any sense at all.

I am not going to fash myself over this legendarium of yours when this actual stuff is being perpetrated against me and mine by Them.