Jump to content

Varys, Illyrio, GC and the "Plan"


The Fresh PtwP
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, CassDarry said:

So Viserys and his 50k screamers support Young Griff and the GC?

  • There were not 50k screamers.
  • Yeah, Viserys would join to support Young G or he would have sta
    1 hour ago, CassDarry said:

    maybe if commanded they could follow someone less

    All the Dothraki despised Viserys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/6/2023 at 1:34 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Not just his personality difficulties but his physical difficulties. The Dothraki respect strength, strength that Viserys doesn't have.

Agreed

Def think if anything drogo (a man of his word) meant to give viserys an army as promised.BUT.not his own or part of

Slave sales and tribute would have been built up and a sellsword/slave  force bought and viserys told to piss off with them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, the ENTIRE catspaw sequence is a very huge contrivance.

1) Joffrey decides to hire a man with to kill Bran with a Valyrian dagger just because he wants to impress his father. For some reason, that man doesn't report to the King about this insanity or runs away with the pricey dagger, but performs the act.  

2) Littlefinger takes a huge gamble of lying about the dagger's origin in front of Varys. (It's quite possible that Varys didn't know but this is still at the limits of believability)

3) Cat just happens to meet Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn (despite the geographical impossibility) and after he spots her, she takes him hostage (this actually makes sense)

 

Having Cersei steal his brother's (Tyrion's) non-Valyrian but distinct looking dagger and hire an assassin to silence Bran would have made infinitely more sense, but I guess originally GRRM planned to have Jaime as perpetrator.

If he really wanted Joffrey behind the act, he should have revealed it to Sansa at the end of AGOT, that would be at least a shocking twist.

1)he is a little sociopath we forget ..his mind doesnt work like others, he hears his dad talk about it bran dying being a mercy etc and gets a known scumbag in the camp to do it (we can assume the hound knew and would know whos suitable for that work) ! he  possibly picked the v steel dagger as we hear he knows how well it cuts , again a socipath thinks in practical terms with 0 empathy and isnt bright enough to think it could be traced back (or knows and feels it could easily be denied anykne can break into roberts collection  )

2) LF doesnt take too  much of a gamble at all here really ....varys isnt all knowing and if called out on it he can simply say he misremembered who won one of countless bets!  Ownership of a knife isnt proof of being behind a hit with one. His comment just simlly added more circumstansal evidence to stir the starks to act (hell he even adds more deniablity later when he tells ned to toss it away and forget it)

Varys may possibly know and isnt sure what gameLF is playing thus stays quiet (the freedom LF has in not having an ally is he can improvise on the spot)

3)bit of a fluke but bith know the inn and have been this way before..sorta makes sense theyd both head for a famiar sighr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, and Aegon... otherwise Viserys can swim with the fishes in the Bay of Pentos. 

Earlier posts suggested Young Griff needs Viserys' recognition if him as Aegon, so Young Griff would support Viserys...granted with the long term view of getting rid of Viserys for Aegon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, frenin said:
  • There were not 50k screamers.
  • Yeah, Viserys would join to support Young G or he would have sta

    All the Dothraki despised Viserys.

Tristan Rivers believed the plan was to join Viserys and his 50k screamers, I'm guessing he didn't know of Aegon yet.

The ones who met him seemed to...bit broad to say "all" seem may not of despised him...didn't he make friends with sell swords and others which got him drunk enough to try to steal eggs(according to Jorah). The Ko's are chosen by the Khal to lead part of his Khalasar so maybe he could command Viserys as a Ko? But the idea that he meant to raise an army no of Dothraki fits also...I'm still mot convinced Drogo made the pact Viserys was told.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, CassDarry said:

Tristan Rivers believed the plan was to join Viserys and his 50k screamers, I'm guessing he didn't know of Aegon yet.

Yeah, I'm stating Drogo would never agree to that.

 

14 hours ago, CassDarry said:

The ones who met him seemed to...bit broad to say "all" seem may not of despised him...

There was not a single rider that didn't despise Viserys'ass by the time they make it to the Crone land.

14 hours ago, CassDarry said:

I'm still mot convinced Drogo made the pact Viserys was told

I'm pretty convinced he never did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Can someone please tell me what does Illyrio want (probably not master of coin) ?

Master of coin while his natural son to a blackfyre mother (the young griff/aegon) is crowned king of westeros. His best pal varys of course remains master of whispers and i suppose jon connington for bringing over the GC and helpinf raise young griff wanted postion of hand (not now his will rot off mind)

Edited by astarkchoice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2023 at 1:11 PM, CassDarry said:

Earlier posts suggested Young Griff needs Viserys' recognition if him as Aegon, so Young Griff would support Viserys...granted with the long term view of getting rid of Viserys for Aegon. 

I actually think Viserys might have been relived to learn that Aegon was alive. But that would be a hypothetical exercise about a fictional character, involving a story with a different plot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2023 at 5:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, the ENTIRE catspaw sequence is a very huge contrivance.

1) Joffrey decides to hire a man with to kill Bran with a Valyrian dagger just because he wants to impress his father. For some reason, that man doesn't report to the King about this insanity or runs away with the pricey dagger, but performs the act.  

2) Littlefinger takes a huge gamble of lying about the dagger's origin in front of Varys. (It's quite possible that Varys didn't know but this is still at the limits of believability)

3) Cat just happens to meet Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn (despite the geographical impossibility) and after he spots her, she takes him hostage (this actually makes sense)

 

Having Cersei steal his brother's (Tyrion's) non-Valyrian but distinct looking dagger and hire an assassin to silence Bran would have made infinitely more sense, but I guess originally GRRM planned to have Jaime as perpetrator.

If he really wanted Joffrey behind the act, he should have revealed it to Sansa at the end of AGOT, that would be at least a shocking twist.

Agreed

The entire catspaw assassination thing is so contrived, I don't even believe that Joffrey had been the one to hire and arm the assassin in an attempt to impress his father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2023 at 6:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, the ENTIRE catspaw sequence is a very huge contrivance.

1) Joffrey decides to hire a man with to kill Bran with a Valyrian dagger just because he wants to impress his father. For some reason, that man doesn't report to the King about this insanity or runs away with the pricey dagger, but performs the act.  

2) Littlefinger takes a huge gamble of lying about the dagger's origin in front of Varys. (It's quite possible that Varys didn't know but this is still at the limits of believability)

3) Cat just happens to meet Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn (despite the geographical impossibility) and after he spots her, she takes him hostage (this actually makes sense)

 

Having Cersei steal his brother's (Tyrion's) non-Valyrian but distinct looking dagger and hire an assassin to silence Bran would have made infinitely more sense, but I guess originally GRRM planned to have Jaime as perpetrator.

If he really wanted Joffrey behind the act, he should have revealed it to Sansa at the end of AGOT, that would be at least a shocking twist.

Perhaps GRRM wanted to subvert expectations by making the catspaw dagger mystery this big event only to have it drop by the wayside, essentially just a small episode in the grand scheme of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Agreed

The entire catspaw assassination thing is so contrived, I don't even believe that Joffrey had been the one to hire and arm the assassin in an attempt to impress his father.

Dunno i think its a clever ruse by grmm

We initaly think its some contrived scheme tied into the various dark plots going on at once

Later we find its actualy pretty simple frlm a simple lil.monster

Joffery is both sociopathic and not too bright and hears his dad say bran would be better off dead, he gets a sneaky shit from one of the camp followers to finish bran off with a fancy knife stolen from his dads huge collection of fancy weapons he takes with him. 

Joff may or may not have known the knife might raise suspicions but if so it can easily be brushed off as anyone could steal from roberts weapon carriage ...more likely he didnt think about it that thoroughly and itd be hard to get a knife elsewhere for him withought being seem

From a sociopaths more cold blooded practical thinking bran has to be killed and killed as quickly and efficently as possible..the knife is v steel thus will pass through like warm butter and (seemingly) even the dumbest assasin couldnt mess it up with a blade that stupidly sharp and strong.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/9/2023 at 8:42 AM, frenin said:

Yeah, I'm stating Drogo would never agree to that.

 

There was not a single rider that didn't despise Viserys'ass by the time they make it to the Crone land.

I'm pretty convinced he never did.

Joining with the gc? Definitely not giving Viserys 50k screamers.

You know every single ride? Lol

I wish we knew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/9/2023 at 6:44 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I actually think Viserys might have been relived to learn that Aegon was alive. But that would be a hypothetical exercise about a fictional character, involving a story with a different plot. 

True but what else we gonna do.

How might he be relieved?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CassDarry said:

True but what else we gonna do.

How might he be relieved?

He's wound up so tight when we meet him, too much pressure. If Aegon had lived, Aegon would have been king, and Viserys could have been a prince forever. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

He's wound up so tight when we meet him, too much pressure. If Aegon had lived, Aegon would have been king, and Viserys could have been a prince forever. 

Maybe,

But would viserys be relieved if young griff came along said "I'm aegon, I'll be king"  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2023 at 3:41 AM, astarkchoice said:

1)he is a little sociopath we forget ..his mind doesnt work like others, he hears his dad talk about it bran dying being a mercy etc and gets a known scumbag in the camp to do it

Regardless of how much Joffrey sucks, someone trying to kill Bran after he saw Jaime and Cersei screwing and it turns out to be completely unrelated to that and is actually Joffrey trying to impress his dad because of an offhand comment (which iirc isn’t even mentioned until ASOS) is the definition of contrived. Not GRRM’s finest piece of writing IMO, overly focused on subverting expectations.

On 5/8/2023 at 3:41 AM, astarkchoice said:

LF doesnt take too  much of a gamble at all here really ....varys isnt all knowing and if called out on it he can simply say he misremembered who won one of countless bets! 

LF personally lost the knife the Robert, the idea that he’d forget about losing a Valyrian Steel knife to the king rather than Tyrion mere months after it happened is not believable. And it’s not just Varys he needs to worry about, anyone who Catelyn talks to about it is a risk if they know the truth.

On 5/8/2023 at 3:41 AM, astarkchoice said:

His comment just simlly added more circumstansal evidence to stir the starks to act

This actually gets to the big problem with his lie - he has absolutely no need to lie to accomplish this goal. Telling Catelyn that it’s Roberts knife accomplishes the same goal since she’ll doubtlessly conclude the Lannisters could have gotten their hands on it, there’s no reason to lie to specifically frame Tyrion except for the meta reason of raising the tension when Cat runs into him on the road, which LF obviously couldn’t have predicted.

Edited by ATaleofSalt&Onions
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...