My Interpretation of Aegon II’s character in the show.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

This isn’t some way to excuse his shitty behavior. To be blunt, he is rapist. Full stop. Regardless of why he is the way he is, it’s ultimately his decision, and his badge to wear.

But to me, he clearly was abused by his mother, and utterly neglected by Viserys growing up. Even at his early teen years he was clearly troubled. The Homelander-esq scene and his underage alcoholism indicates that. Alicent physically abused him and screams at him, instead of approaching it as a mother should. With alarm, but understanding. Then, after Aemond loses an eye, and he blames Aegon for the “rumor” of Luke and Jace’s bastardy, it’s clearly implied that it was actually Alicent, drilling it into their heads. Yet she allows Aegon to take the blame and his neglectful father’s ire.

He grows up being abused by his mother, who instills fear and paranoia in him, in attempts to force him to become King, which he clearly doesn’t want. And he is outright neglected by his father, who shows clear favoritism to Rhaenyra and her children. He develops as he does, and now he is a young adult who has no idea how to earn the affection that he never had growing up. So he attempts to use his authority, that his mother instilled in him, to try and force affection from the women he assaults.

Like I said in the beginning, he is an adult when he does this. Ultimately it is his responsibility, but it’s clear if Alicent and Viserys had been better parents he’d have been different.

[Lord Varys]

That is no bad interpretation.

I actually like their version of Aegon II very much. And, in fact, I don't beat him up for the rape there. It is a shitty world with very bad morals and in-universe that's not really a very bad crime. And it is presented as such. For the modern audience it clearly is a bad thing, sure enough, but in-universe the abuse of a servant wouldn't be a big thing.

And it kind of isn't. Alicent empathizes with the woman to a point, but she is more concerned about Aegon's and the Crown's reputation than his actual behavior. This whole thing means that he cannot control himself - which he also shows with his drinking, etc.

While Viserys doesn't really interact with Aegon, not even in a dismissive way - which, I think, was a great mistake on part of the writers. The show needed a scene where a young Aegon summons up his courage, approaches his father, and asks him whether he actually is going to be king one day like his mother and grandfather insist he will - only for Viserys to shut down the entire notion as ridiculous and, at the same time, making it clear to both the audience and Aegon what he thought of him. Not in an intentionally cruel way since the character wouldn't do that ... but in a way that got the message across.

A great way to make it even pretty empathic, having father and son kind of bonding there, could have been having Viserys reveal for the first time that he actually never wanted to be king. He could have told Aegon that he only put forth his claim to ensure the lords opposing the idea to crown Rhaenys would not turn to Daemon, the next male claimant in line, instead. He could tell Aegon that the crown was a huge burden Viserys felt he had take on, a burden that was slowly destroying his life and happiness (symbolized by the sickness) ... a burden he was intentionally sparing Aegon from so he could live a happy and quiet life, doing what he liked best. Such a scene could have then greatly played into Aegon's later strong refusal to become king.

I expect Aegon's story to be a failed emancipation story. He was always under the thumb of his mother, we see this. So now that he is king he will relish in the fact that he is now in charge - and that the people apparently actually like him suddenly - so we will see him to eventually sack Otto and, perhaps, striking Alicent in public or at council when she talks back at him. Once he installs Criston Cole as Hand we will have an Aegon II who will really try be a king who rules in his own right and leads from the front, etc. Then, after Rook's Rest, he will become a bedridden drug addict, crippled and disfigured and again at his mother's mercy. I could see him begging Larys Strong to get him out of the Red Keep without telling his mother.

Then we'll get another Aegon trying to be his own man on a more baser level - overcoming drug addiction, recovering, regaining his dragon ... only to be injured and crippled yet again during the taking of Dragonstone. In the last phase of his life I think Aegon-Alicent could be a completely dysfunctional relationship, a mother and a son who deeply loathe each other with one blaming the other for how fucked up everything was, how they only suffered this much because the other made a stupid decision. 'Had you never forced me to become king none of this would have happened!' 'Had you had an ounce of sense everything would have been fine!' The only reason they would still work together would be that they were the last of the family.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is no bad interpretation.

I actually like their version of Aegon II very much. And, in fact, I don't beat him up for the rape there. It is a shitty world with very bad morals and in-universe that's not really a very bad crime. And it is presented as such. For the modern audience it clearly is a bad thing, sure enough, but in-universe the abuse of a servant wouldn't be a big thing.

And it kind of isn't. Alicent empathizes with the woman to a point, but she is more concerned about Aegon's and the Crown's reputation than his actual behavior. This whole thing means that he cannot control himself - which he also shows with his drinking, etc.

While Viserys doesn't really interact with Aegon, not even in a dismissive way - which, I think, was a great mistake on part of the writers. The show needed a scene where a young Aegon summons up his courage, approaches his father, and asks him whether he actually is going to be king one day like his mother and grandfather insist he will - only for Viserys to shut down the entire notion as ridiculous and, at the same time, making it clear to both the audience and Aegon what he thought of him. Not in an intentionally cruel way since the character wouldn't do that ... but in a way that got the message across.

A great way to make it even pretty empathic, having father and son kind of bonding there, could have been having Viserys reveal for the first time that he actually never wanted to be king. He could have told Aegon that he only put forth his claim to ensure the lords opposing the idea to crown Rhaenys would not turn to Daemon, the next male claimant in line, instead. He could tell Aegon that the crown was a huge burden Viserys felt he had take on, a burden that was slowly destroying his life and happiness (symbolized by the sickness) ... a burden he was intentionally sparing Aegon from so he could live a happy and quiet life, doing what he liked best. Such a scene could have then greatly played into Aegon's later strong refusal to become king.

I expect Aegon's story to be a failed emancipation story. He was always under the thumb of his mother, we see this. So now that he is king he will relish in the fact that he is now in charge - and that the people apparently actually like him suddenly - so we will see him to eventually sack Otto and, perhaps, striking Alicent in public or at council when she talks back at him. Once he installs Criston Cole as Hand we will have an Aegon II who will really try be a king who rules in his own right and leads from the front, etc. Then, after Rook's Rest, he will become a bedridden drug addict, crippled and disfigured and again at his mother's mercy. I could see him begging Larys Strong to get him out of the Red Keep without telling his mother.

Then we'll get another Aegon trying to be his own man on a more baser level - overcoming drug addiction, recovering, regaining his dragon ... only to be injured and crippled yet again during the taking of Dragonstone. In the last phase of his life I think Aegon-Alicent could be a completely dysfunctional relationship, a mother and a son who deeply loathe each other with one blaming the other for how fucked up everything was, how they only suffered this much because the other made a stupid decision. 'Had you never forced me to become king none of this would have happened!' 'Had you had an ounce of sense everything would have been fine!' The only reason they would still work together would be that they were the last of the family.

Agreed 100%. We should’ve gotten more scenes with Viserys and the Greens.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is no bad interpretation.

I actually like their version of Aegon II very much. And, in fact, I don't beat him up for the rape there. It is a shitty world with very bad morals and in-universe that's not really a very bad crime. And it is presented as such. For the modern audience it clearly is a bad thing, sure enough, but in-universe the abuse of a servant wouldn't be a big thing.

And it kind of isn't. Alicent empathizes with the woman to a point, but she is more concerned about Aegon's and the Crown's reputation than his actual behavior. This whole thing means that he cannot control himself - which he also shows with his drinking, etc.

While Viserys doesn't really interact with Aegon, not even in a dismissive way - which, I think, was a great mistake on part of the writers. The show needed a scene where a young Aegon summons up his courage, approaches his father, and asks him whether he actually is going to be king one day like his mother and grandfather insist he will - only for Viserys to shut down the entire notion as ridiculous and, at the same time, making it clear to both the audience and Aegon what he thought of him. Not in an intentionally cruel way since the character wouldn't do that ... but in a way that got the message across.

A great way to make it even pretty empathic, having father and son kind of bonding there, could have been having Viserys reveal for the first time that he actually never wanted to be king. He could have told Aegon that he only put forth his claim to ensure the lords opposing the idea to crown Rhaenys would not turn to Daemon, the next male claimant in line, instead. He could tell Aegon that the crown was a huge burden Viserys felt he had take on, a burden that was slowly destroying his life and happiness (symbolized by the sickness) ... a burden he was intentionally sparing Aegon from so he could live a happy and quiet life, doing what he liked best. Such a scene could have then greatly played into Aegon's later strong refusal to become king.

I expect Aegon's story to be a failed emancipation story. He was always under the thumb of his mother, we see this. So now that he is king he will relish in the fact that he is now in charge - and that the people apparently actually like him suddenly - so we will see him to eventually sack Otto and, perhaps, striking Alicent in public or at council when she talks back at him. Once he installs Criston Cole as Hand we will have an Aegon II who will really try be a king who rules in his own right and leads from the front, etc. Then, after Rook's Rest, he will become a bedridden drug addict, crippled and disfigured and again at his mother's mercy. I could see him begging Larys Strong to get him out of the Red Keep without telling his mother.

Then we'll get another Aegon trying to be his own man on a more baser level - overcoming drug addiction, recovering, regaining his dragon ... only to be injured and crippled yet again during the taking of Dragonstone. In the last phase of his life I think Aegon-Alicent could be a completely dysfunctional relationship, a mother and a son who deeply loathe each other with one blaming the other for how fucked up everything was, how they only suffered this much because the other made a stupid decision. 'Had you never forced me to become king none of this would have happened!' 'Had you had an ounce of sense everything would have been fine!' The only reason they would still work together would be that they were the last of the family.

I just wish they kept the fact he loved his siblings and usurped Rhaenyra FOR them in the show. In fact it seems like Helaena and Aemond despise Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

I just wish they kept the fact he loved his siblings and usurped Rhaenyra FOR them in the show. In fact it seems like Helaena and Aemond despise Aegon.

Don't think Aegon II was particularly close to any of his siblings in both books and, of course, the show. The statues thing he does at the end of the war is clearly a mad vanity project on his part. They have to be honored because they are martyrs of his cause, not because he loved them all that well.

Having Aegon claim the throne for his siblings feels off in both book and show. The scenario that Rhaenyra would destroy or kill her half-siblings to secure her power isn't really convincing. For that, the half-siblings themselves would have to really big issues with each other. The Aemond incident is tough, but in book and show both Aemond didn't feel that bad about it, and the real beef is between Rhaenyra and Alicent (in the book), not between Rhaenyra and Aegon.

That kind of makes the story as such less complex and less interesting.

Worse than the Aegon-Viserys thing I mentioned above is the fact that the show had no scene between Aegon and Rhaenyra in season 1. We don't know how they feel about each other, nor how Aemond or Helaena feel about Rhaenyra.

That is a big problem since Aegon and Rhaenyra will only meet again if there are no changes when Aegon has her killed.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

On 4/16/2023 at 9:54 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

I just wish they kept the fact he loved his siblings and usurped Rhaenyra FOR them in the show. In fact it seems like Helaena and Aemond despise Aegon.

I think Aegon does love his family on some level but its buried deep under a mountain-sized pile of self-loathing, self-pity, parental abuse, parental neglect, a desperate need for validation, loneliness, and hedonism as a coping mechanism for everything I just mentioned. Its telling (and damning) that in the Green faction specifically and House Targaryen more generally, Aegon II is the outsider, as the actor evinces by him keeping his hair short.

In other words, I think what the show is trying to do is make Aegon II and Rhaenyra both tragic figures but with Aegon II its due to the fact all his life he never truly gets the two things he so desperately wants, which are love/respect and freedom/control.

Its honestly fascinating how Aegon II both parallels and mirrors Rhaenyra. They both have unhappy (not to mention unwanted) marriages (forced upon them) and die horribly. One wants the throne, the other doesn't. One wants to be loved and admired, the other has been loved and admired most, if not all their life. One suffers mentally as the war progresses, the other physically. Both, in the books, are fat initially (or at least pudgy on Aegon II's part). Rhaenyra in Amok's portrait never forgot a slight and had a bit of a temper and lo, that's how Aegon II is described by Gyldayn in F & B. The list goes on.

The two of them are, paradoxically, way more alike than they'd ever admit.

Edited April 19, 2023 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[BlackLightning]

On 4/15/2023 at 8:36 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

But to me, he clearly was abused by his mother, and utterly neglected by Viserys growing up.

Agreed 100%

Although it's worth mentioning that Viserys was so terribly unhealthy that there was no way for him to be a good father to anyone...including Rhaenyra.

On 4/15/2023 at 5:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

While Viserys doesn't really interact with Aegon, not even in a dismissive way - which, I think, was a great mistake on part of the writers. The show needed a scene where a young Aegon summons up his courage, approaches his father, and asks him whether he actually is going to be king one day like his mother and grandfather insist he will - only for Viserys to shut down the entire notion as ridiculous and, at the same time, making it clear to both the audience and Aegon what he thought of him. Not in an intentionally cruel way since the character wouldn't do that ... but in a way that got the message across.

Absolutely

This point consists of one of my biggest complaints about the show.

It's not just about the lack of interaction between Viserys and Aegon, it's the lack of interaction between everyone in general. Like all of the main characters are either family or close friends/coworkers. But the only time we see really interacting together en masse was at the dinner in 1.08. And the first two generation of Velaryons are nowhere to be found...

The most egregious example of this is that we never see Rhaenyra and Aegon interact (and the one time that we did see them "interact," Rhaenyra did the classic teenage older sibling scoff at Aegon's 2nd birthday). Fire and Blood makes it clear that Rhaenyra and Aegon never got along but we never see that in the show. With the way that things are heading, Rhaenyra and Aegon won't even have a scene together until

Spoiler

Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to her dragon

The show focused way too much on the Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship.

A  lot of people feel like we needed two extra episodes but I think we could've done well with three.

[Lord Varys]

On 4/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

In other words, I think what the show is trying to do is make Aegon II and Rhaenyra both tragic figures but with Aegon II its due to the fact all his life he never truly gets the two things he so desperately wants, which are love/respect and freedom/control.

Honestly, I don't think Aegon II in the book has any such problems. He lives the carefree and spoiled of a royal prince who has no responsibilities. If he is depressed or sad it is a luxury depression - and won't pity him for that.

The idea that he craves love or attention of his father is also kind of weird - these people are royalty. Even in a completely functional family their parents would not spend much time with their children - not when they were young and also not when they were older. They would have their nannies and tutors and servants and companions for emotional stuff. Interpreting a royal family like they were some modern folks doesn't really work.

We can expect that Aegon may have wanted his father to treat him more like a firstborn son ... but even that's not clear. If he never wanted to be king he may have been fine with his relationship with his father.

On 4/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Its honestly fascinating how Aegon II both parallels and mirrors Rhaenyra. They both have unhappy (not to mention unwanted) marriages (forced upon them) and die horribly. One wants the throne, the other doesn't. One wants to be loved and admired, the other has been loved and admired most, if not all their life. One suffers mentally as the war progresses, the other physically. Both, in the books, are fat initially (or at least pudgy on Aegon II's part). Rhaenyra in Amok's portrait never forgot a slight and had a bit of a temper and lo, that's how Aegon II is described by Gyldayn in F & B. The list goes on.

Rhaenyra has troubles with her first marriage. Aegon is a guy, he fucks who he wants, including his sister-wife, but he has no problem with his marriage since a marriage for a man in his world doesn't limit him like at all if he wants to ignore the wife.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Agreed 100%

Although it's worth mentioning that Viserys was so terribly unhealthy that there was no way for him to be a good father to anyone...including Rhaenyra.

He is actually quite a distant father with her, too - very much like any royal father would be. Children are more like, well, things than people. Just look how they are treated in Downton Abbey. You eat with them once a day, you talk about their lessons and their daily routines, check on their progress with their tutors and stuff ... and that's it. You don't care for them as people.

Viserys seems to have thought a lot about Rhaenyra, but he has only one meaningful conversation with her ... they are not very close on a personal level, not talking about their feelings, etc.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It's not just about the lack of interaction between Viserys and Aegon, it's the lack of interaction between everyone in general. Like all of the main characters are either family or close friends/coworkers. But the only time we see really interacting together en masse was at the dinner in 1.08. And the first two generation of Velaryons are nowhere to be found...

It has more scenes like that than GoT did ... but there is too little there. There should have been either a group scene with all the half-siblings or scenes with Rhaenyra-Aegon, Rhaenyra-Helaena, and Rhaenyra-Aemond. It could have been something as little as Rhaenyra asking Helaena about her millipedes at the funeral, or even giving her a new one for her collection, Rhaenyra telling Aegon to behave himself or she is going to spank him like she did when he was little - which one could do both playfully or somewhat sinister, indicating that they have a bad history. For Aemond-Rhaenyra I've no good idea, but they could have gotten along pretty well, too, before the Vhagar incident.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The most egregious example of this is that we never see Rhaenyra and Aegon interact (and the one time that we did see them "interact," Rhaenyra did the classic teenage older sibling scoff at Aegon's 2nd birthday). Fire and Blood makes it clear that Rhaenyra and Aegon never got along but we never see that in the show. With the way that things are heading, Rhaenyra and Aegon won't even have a scene together until

  Hide contents

Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to her dragon

Yes, that's a big issue. They really fucked things up there. That's definitely a thing which could warrant flashbacks in later seasons. Unless they mess with things and add earlier confrontations between the two. For instance, I do assume that Rhaenyra will be at Rook's Rest on Syrax and Rhaenys will sacrifice herself to enable her to escape. There could be other meetings where they exchange terms directly, I don't know.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The show focused way too much on the Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship.

A  lot of people feel like we needed two extra episodes but I think we could've done well with three.

Rhaenyra-Alicent is crucial, too, but the other relationships should have been explored, too. Aegon-Rhaenyra could have had a moment at her wedding.

[Annara Snow]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:36 PM, King Maegor the Cool said:

This isn’t some way to excuse his shitty behavior. To be blunt, he is rapist. Full stop. Regardless of why he is the way he is, it’s ultimately his decision, and his badge to wear.

But to me, he clearly was abused by his mother, and utterly neglected by Viserys growing up. Even at his early teen years he was clearly troubled. The Homelander-esq scene and his underage alcoholism indicates that. Alicent physically abused him and screams at him, instead of approaching it as a mother should. With alarm, but understanding. Then, after Aemond loses an eye, and he blames Aegon for the “rumor” of Luke and Jace’s bastardy, it’s clearly implied that it was actually Alicent, drilling it into their heads. Yet she allows Aegon to take the blame and his neglectful father’s ire.

He grows up being abused by his mother, who instills fear and paranoia in him, in attempts to force him to become King, which he clearly doesn’t want. And he is outright neglected by his father, who shows clear favoritism to Rhaenyra and her children. He develops as he does, and now he is a young adult who has no idea how to earn the affection that he never had growing up. So he attempts to use his authority, that his mother instilled in him, to try and force affection from the women he assaults.

Like I said in the beginning, he is an adult when he does this. Ultimately it is his responsibility, but it’s clear if Alicent and Viserys had been better parents he’d have been different.

This is a story of intergenerational trauma. Alicent was only 15 when she became a mother, had 4 children as a teen mom, in an unhappy marriage and as a product of marital rape (not that she would even know to define it as such, she sees it as her doing her unpleasant duty), and she has a father who uses her as a political pawn, pushed her into a marrriage with a much older man when she was 14, and instills fear and paranoia into her. Alicent is ill-equipped to deal with motherhood and then even fpr a decade loses the presence of her father, as a figure who could've offered her support (such as it was) I On top of that, Viserys very clearly sees her as a consolation prize and favores Rhaenyra over her children, and Rhaenyra and dead Aemma over her, long before he even becomes too ill and incapacited to even be a presence.

So Alicent doesn't know how to be a good mother, and behaves to Aegon in  many ways the way Otto behaves towards her. But at the same time, she does everything to try to protect her children - even though it's her actions that are helping put them in danger. 

What makes this even more tragic is that, not only does Alicent love Aegon (as we see in 1x09 when her first instinct is to irrationally step in front of him to shield him from dragonfire with her body, even if that realistically wouldn't help much),  even though she doesn't like him (it's a way that many parents love their children but also abuse them and screw them up), but I do think that Otto probably loves Alicent in his own messed up and selfish way. or thinks he loves her. He is using her politically for his own ambition and his family's ambition, but he probably also really thinks he has done good for his daughter, making her the Queen, giving her the highest position of power she could ever have. (Especially as, contrary to Rhaenys' weird speech in 1x09, Alicent could never rule in her own right even if Rhaenyra were to install absolute primogeniture, which Rhaenyra has absolutely no intention of doing, since Alicent has no claim to the throne and is far, far behind in the Hightower line of succession, since Otto is a mere second son.)

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Agreed 100%

Although it's worth mentioning that Viserys was so terribly unhealthy that there was no way for him to be a good father to anyone...including Rhaenyra.

 

Viserys was a bad father long before he was so ill he really couldn't do anything. In 1x06 andv 1x07, he was still not incapacitated, but he was showing blatant disinterest towards his children with Alicent and clear favoritism towards Rhaenyra and her children. When Alicent tells him Aemond is bullied, he isn't concerned and even blames Aemond for it - why does he have to be the way he is, so serious and gullible, so the other kids want to bully him? He points out that Aegon is probably the ringleader, which shows he's more perceptive than he seems, but does he do anything about that? No. He just waves it off. "They (Jace and Luke) are more children than he (Aemond) is". OK, but what about Aegon? Are you going to talk to him? Does it concern you that he's bullying his brother?

Alicent makes terrible mistakes as a mother, but at least she's trying. Viserys just doesn't care. 

And then there's Driftmark - the most blatant and outrageous display of favoritism ever by Viserys. Enough has been said about that and it should really be obvious, so I don't think I need to reiterate. Viserys' behavior there - the way he doesn't even try to comfort Aemond before starting to act like the 'rumors' of Rhaenyra's kids' bastardy is the biggest issue there while Aemond losing an eye is irrelevant, can't be blamed on his health. He was healthy enough to question his own sons and threaten people over spreading the rumors. And it's only after Aegon points out that "everyone knows, just look at them" ( which Viserys knows, but doesn't want to know), he switches to, oh, let's all forget this and get along!

That's not to say he's a great father to Rhaenyra either . He should have really prepared her much better for ruling, for one thing. If you believe she can be a ruling queen and if you can expect the realm to accept her as the heir, you should also be ready to give her real positions of political power and include her in the governnance  (Baelon was Jaehaerys' heir and his Hand, that's not uncommon) rather than focus on her marrying and producing children - which yeah, is also important, but if you want her to be a ruler rather than just a consort, it can't be the only important thing.

He also just expects that everything will work out because he says so. and Rhaenyra seems to have learned that from him, to expect that people will all follow her because her father chose her and made them or their fathers swear oaths - while also expecting them to turn a blind eye that she's breaking the Westerosi rules of succession by passing on obviously illegitiate children as legitimate (which is an issue when you're asking people to support you based on rules rather than competence or charisma or the benefits you will give them). - and doesn't try enough to gain allies. But Viserys himself wasn't very competent, so he was passing on his own incompetence to her.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:12 AM, Lord Varys said:

Worse than the Aegon-Viserys thing I mentioned above is the fact that the show had no scene between Aegon and Rhaenyra in season 1. We don't know how they feel about each other, nor how Aemond or Helaena feel about Rhaenyra.

I disagree on this point.

I think Aemond's feelings towards Rhaenyra are abundantly clear.

• He is openly deferential to her as the Princess of Dragonstone despite the fact that he has been party to his mother's plot to disinherit her from a young age. I'd even go so far as to say that he respects her on some level. Because, for all intents and purposes, Rhaenyra does a pretty good job as overlord of the Blackwater and Narrow Sea.
• He clearly knows that his mother and Criston Cole despise his half-sister. He also clearly understands why (on some level) and he sides with their mother and Criston Cole.
  • That said, I don't think he believes that Rhaenyra will have his side of the family killed to protect her claim to the Iron Throne.
  • I think Aemond's dislike with Rhaenyra is tied to his dislike of Aegon: he can see that Rhaenyra and Aegon have more in common (irresponsible, sloppy, sexually indiscreet, etc.) than literally everybody else is willing to admit
• Despite all of the above, Aemond extremely indifferent towards Rhaenyra. He has no real skin in that game. Even if Rhaenyra was a female Maegor, he's not very high on her hitlist. Otto, Alicent, Aegon and Criston all outrank him in that regard. Moreover, Rhaenyra is no threat to him. Not only is he a man (and a gifted warrior at that) who can easily overpower her, he also commands a larger and more experience dragon than she does. And up until the death of Lucerys, Aemond carries himself with more honor than she does. In fact, he is actually the more attractive choice for rulership than Aegon and Rhaenyra.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

This is a story of intergenerational trauma.

Try to remove your modernistic bourgeois glasses here. Alicent may be a young mother, but she is A QUEEN! She doesn't (breast-)feed her children, doesn't clean them, nurse them, care for them, play with them, teach them, tutor them, spend time with them, entertain them, etc.

All of that is outsourced to servants. Even love and affection.

Royal or noble mothering isn't a thing. And royal and noble children don't look for love and affection with their parents - they have other people for that. They might crave their recognition, endorsement, support, and favors. But they don't turn to their mom for a kiss and a hug nor to their dad for a smile and a pat on the back. That's modernistic nonsense.

And we see that George kind of has that view, too. Cersei's children don't spend much time with their parents, Shireen doesn't, either, the Stark children also grow up more with servants and castle folk (Luwin, for instance, is very much a fatherly figure to them - just as Cressen was to Stannis and Shireen) than their parents.

The show doesn't indicate that the royals are close to any of their children. Rhaenyra visits with her mother and serves her father at the Small Council table ... but the rest of her day she spends separate from her parents, with Alicent and her tutors. Alicent doesn't personally care for her children, she has, for the most part, servants for that. Like Viserys she receives reports about the behavior her children, she doesn't teach or tutor them herself. And so on so forth.

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

He is openly deferential to her as the Princess of Dragonstone despite the fact that he has been party to his mother's plot to disinherit her from a young age. I'd even go so far as to say that he respects her on some level. Because, for all intents and purposes, Rhaenyra does a pretty good job as overlord of the Blackwater and Narrow Sea.

On what scene would you base that assessment? I don't know what you might be basing on this. I'd say that Aemond's issues in the show are more with Aegon and him being (in his mind) unsuited for the role of king ... but we don't know what he thought about Rhaenyra in this regard.

I'd also say that Aemond is the classical angry middle child in the show, being ignored by all, until he gets his huge dragon. Then he turns into Otto's favorite pawn. It may be that he loved his mother before ... but Alicent didn't care about Aemond at all as her effectively giving Aegon permission to bully him shows.

Later I imagine that Aemond putting his mind to becoming a great warrior + his great dragon made him a kind of favorite of Alicent's and Otto's - which then is the basis for the good relationship he has with his mother in episode 9.

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

• Despite all of the above, Aemond extremely indifferent towards Rhaenyra. He has no real skin in that game. Even if Rhaenyra was a female Maegor, he's not very high on her hitlist. Otto, Alicent, Aegon and Criston all outrank him in that regard. Moreover, Rhaenyra is no threat to him. Not only is he a man (and a gifted warrior at that) who can easily overpower her, he also commands a larger and more experience dragon than she does. And up until the death of Lucerys, Aemond carries himself with more honor than she does. In fact, he is actually the more attractive choice for rulership than Aegon and Rhaenyra.

I'd agree that Aemond doesn't fear Rhaenyra - but not because of his sex/gender or the size of his dragon (a queen could simply have him arrested and killed with a word, without actually confronting him or his dragon) but because he doesn't have much beef with her.

He seems to fancy himself the better man and he clearly is smarter and has more insight than Aegon ... which is why I'm really intrigued how they go with the Alys Rivers plot and Aemond's moronic decisions.

I guess they could play up the Riverlords as a larger threat to the capital in the show, so that Aemond's march against Harrenhal makes more sense. But at Harrenhal the guy must really for for the older yet sexy Alys who turns him into her pet to explain why he ended up wasting his time with her rather than actually continuing the war in a reasonable way. Burning stuff isn't exactly a smart move, and you could even say that it is pitiful and craven to use the largest dragon alive merely as a lure to lure other dragonriders into a trap ... rather than, you know, act like a proper man and warrior and face the enemy head on and with an open visor.

Aegon the Conqueror didn't conquer Westeros by burning Harren's fields and villages.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Try to remove your modernistic bourgeois glasses here. 

LMAO

At this point I'm starting to think you're writing deliberate parody posts.

Quote

older yet sexy Alys who turns him into his pet

You managed to insert this in a topic about Aegon! But I guess there is no "femme fatale" available we could try to blame Aegon's actions on...

Edited April 20, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

LMAO

At this point I'm starting to think you're writing deliberate parody posts.

I'm just saying 'intergenerational trauma' when a noblewoman marries a king in the most prosperous time in history. If she cannot be happy then ... the problem is likely hers.

And to be clear - there is just one scene which we can interpret as marital rape where Alicent is asked to have intercourse while not being in the mood - but she meekly obeys like a little puppet there, not sending word back to the old man that she isn't in the mood. She even goes as far as pretending to enjoy it when she could have said 'Vis, not now, please.'

We cannot pretend that this scene must be representative of the marital sex life of Viserys and Alicent. The point of the scene is more to contrast female sexuality in an arranged marriage with free and self-determined female sexuality as explored by Rhaenyra in the same episode.

The idea that this kind of thing fucked up the children is ludicrous ... even if we were to assume that the children would have a very close relationship to their parents in modern bourgeous core family - which they haven't.

12 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

You managed to insert this in a topic about Aegon! But I guess there is no "femme fatale" available we could try to blame Aegon's actions on...

Alys Rivers is clearly a femme fatale - or described as such. The mysterious witchy woman, basically a Melisandre without red robes, worming her way into the minds and hearts of the most powerful men, turning them into empty-headed morons and then casting them away once she has what she wanted (a child). That's Aemond's story in a nutshell.

And for the show we know why they will go that way - because so far Aemond is actually pretty smart and insightful ... yet unless they change his story completely he has to fuck things up hard. Best way to do that would be to turn him into an honest fool for this sly and manipulative woman than to turn him into a fool without no reason.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

That's why I prefaced that particular bit with "the show." And just because it was normal for royalty to not have the close family relationships most people enjoy doesn't mean you couldn't or wouldn't occasionally have a prince or king who didn't like that one bit.

Just look at how close J & A were with Aemon and Baelon or how Baelon openly wept in his mother's arms after coming back from Tarth.

I meant both were made to marry people they wouldn't have if they had had their way.

@BlackLightning

My issue is that Viserys unequivocally displays an egregious level of favoritism. After the Vhagar incident Viserys doesn't show any interest in Aemond's wound or feelings, only where he learned to call Rhaenyra's sons "bastards" to the point of yelling at him and Aegon.

In the episode after that he literally drags himself out of his deathbed for Rhaenyra but somehow I get the feeling that had it been Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, or Daeron in her position he wouldn't have.

That being said, you are dead-to-rights Rhaenyra and Aegon are more similar than anyone would ever admit.

Edited April 21, 2023 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

That's why I prefaced that particular bit with "the show." And just because it was normal for royalty to not have the close family relationships most people enjoy doesn't mean you couldn't or wouldn't occasionally have a prince or king who didn't like that one bit.

I actually think Gyldayn's account of Viserys-Rhaenyra makes them appear to be closer, emotionally and mentally, than the show actually depicted them. Viserys is a very distant father with her, too, and his decision to name her his heir has more to do with prophecy and dreams than affection or love.

Yes, the show has Viserys interaction more (or only) with Rhaenyra ... but not so much in a way that indicates theirs is a very warm, close, or loving relationship.

I mean, George's Viserys seems to be the guy who would ran through a crowd of people, shouting: 'Rhaenyyyra!!!', picking her up, hugging her, and throwing her in the air and stuff like that. Show Viserys is affectionate and kind of nice, but not close.

That idea could be too much, but the love her parents had for Rhaenyra was the special love of a couple which could produce but one child.

43 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Just look at how close J & A were with Aemon and Baelon or how Baelon openly wept in his mother's arms after coming back from Tarth.

Alysanne was distinctly close to her children, caring for them herself after each birth, taking off after each pregnancy, etc. That would have been very exceptional. No indication Alicent did anything like that - neither in book or show.

But even that doesn't mean Alysanne would have even been remotely as close to her children as a modern bourgeous mother would be. Affection and love between siblings - especially in House Targaryen - would be expected, though. They would spend much more time with each other than their parents.

I mean, we even see this in Dunk & Egg where Aerion clearly can bully Egg without their father, uncles, or grandfather interfering - that would be part of the system where parents are distant and children don't really go to them to complain about injustices they suffer.

43 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I meant both were made to marry people they wouldn't have if they had had their way.

I'm not sure Aegon had another woman he would like to wed. Love marriages are effectively not a thing, so it is irrelevant for a man in Aegon's position who he marries. He will decide if and how much time he spends with his wife, meaning his marriage might only exist on paper. Marriage is not a cage or a hindrance for Aegon to do what he wants, so it isn't the same thing for him ... at all. These people have their own apartments and can have their own castles. If Aegon doesn't want to see Helaena, ever, he can make it so.

It can become a problem if he has children outside of marriage and wants to put them before children born in wedlock. But that would be a very special case.

43 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

My issue is that Viserys unequivocally displays an egregious level of favoritism. After the Vhagar incident Viserys doesn't show any interest in Aemond's wound or feelings, only where he learned to call Rhaenyra's sons "bastards" to the point of yelling at him and Aegon.

They did care about Aemond earlier there, no? We jump ahead until after the maester has given a prognosis about the eye.

43 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

In the episode after that he literally drags himself out of his deathbed for Rhaenyra but somehow I get the feeling that had it been Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, or Daeron in her position he wouldn't have.

Yes, but I actually would say Viserys does this more for himself, for what he ultimately wants, not for the benefit of Rhaenyra. He wants to get his house in order and a successor on the throne who can shoulder the burden he has to pass on. The dream and prophecy stuff. He doesn't choose Rhaenyra because he loves her so much. Nor because Rhaenyra wants the throne so much and he wants to please her. Her plea is pretty clear there - if her father wants her to succeed him, after all, he has to take a stand now. And he does it.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

Re Viserys I: I agree with you. Book!Viserys strikes me as an almost Santa Claus-like figure.

The incest might help but it might also make relationships worse.

I wasn't referring to Aegon having another he would prefer to wed. I was simply saying him and Rhaenyra are both forced to marry people they would never have chosen of their own free will.

Re Aemond: In the absence of evidence I'd say both our interpretations are valid.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

The incest might help but it might also make relationships worse.

That may be - but it is the standard practice, and outside matches only happen when there either are no siblings or other close family to marry or when it is decided that they would (this time) not go with the standard practice.

Aenys and Maegor have no sisters to marry, but Aenys gets a cousin from the extended family. Maegor marries outside the family because his brides provides his father with a very desirable political link. Rhaena-Aegon and Jaehaerys-Alysanne are supposed to marry ... for the latter are only other partners considered when Alyssa decides they won't continue the incest.

Then it is incest and family marriage all the time ... the exception being spare daughters who simply have no close male cousins to marry. But even then extended family is considered first. When Vaegon-Daella don't work younger sisters are first mentioned ... and Daella's first candidate after Vaegon is Corlys Velaryon. Daemon and Rhea Royce are somewhat odd but this was likely a combination of finding an heiress for Daemon ... and getting him out of the capital and into the country where here couldn't cause trouble. He didn't really have a sister to marry and the only other close relation would be Gael. Why that didn't happen is something George should have addressed, I guess.

Rhaenyra's match is also a tidbit hard - she has brothers but they aren't really considered, there is a chance to marry her to a Dornish prince, there are other suitors ... but then it is the extended family again.

Aegon III later only gets so many suitors because he happens to have no unmarried half-sisters when he is to remarry - if Baela and Rhaena had been available the match would have been clear. Ditto if there had been other first cousins around.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Lord Varys

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Honestly the show should not have made Aegon a rapist. They should’ve steered more into the abused sadboi character they kind of developed. Making him a rapist kind of makes him unsympathetic to most people.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Honestly the show should not have made Aegon a rapist. They should’ve steered more into the abused sadboi character they kind of developed. Making him a rapist kind of makes him unsympathetic to most people.

Aegon II is much worse than a rapist in the book, so this is just fine. In fact, we do hear that he fathered bastard on some servingwoman of his mother's in the book, and that is clearly their rendering of that event.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

Aegon II is much worse than a rapist in the book, so this is just fine. In fact, we do hear that he fathered bastard on some servingwoman of his mother's in the book, and that is clearly their rendering of that event.

I got in argument in the tiktok ASOIAF fandom about him. All I said comparatively, murder is a worse crime than rape. Not saying it isn’t awful, but compared to murder it isn’t. And they ripped my head off for it.

I think media in general, has desensitized people to how bad murder is.