These kids should get off my lawn (the getting older thread)

[Heartofice]

There were news stories going around that Gen Z were the hardest generation to work with 

https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/employers-reveal-why-gen-z-is-hardest-generation-to-work-with/
 

Quote

“They all exhibited the same weird office behavior,” said Peter, who asked to withhold his last name for privacy reasons.

“They didn’t know how to conduct themselves in a business setting. I was taught how an office operates, whether it’s dealing with a hierarchy or just something as simple as when someone’s in front of you, you look them in the eye.”

Another major complaint was distractibility, with 36% of managers agreeing that Gen Z has a hard time concentrating.

It doesn't surprise me at all, I know a lot of very talented kids coming into the industry, but also just act like they have zero idea on how to behave around adults. 

When I started full time work I think I was pretty good at what I did but the major learning was how to talk to people in a business setting, using the right terms and understanding what people in other business areas care about might not be the same as you. I think all that shit takes a long time to learn, there is so many soft skills involved that I think a lot of kids probably don't have.

[baxus]

22 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It doesn't surprise me at all, I know a lot of very talented kids coming into the industry, but also just act like they have zero idea on how to behave around adults. 

When I started full time work I think I was pretty good at what I did but the major learning was how to talk to people in a business setting, using the right terms and understanding what people in other business areas care about might not be the same as you. I think all that shit takes a long time to learn, there is so many soft skills involved that I think a lot of kids probably don't have.

I guess it would be fair to say that tolerance for weird social behaviour is a bit higher in software industry

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, baxus said:

I guess it would be fair to say that tolerance for weird social behaviour is a bit higher in software industry

Well inability to talk to people is pretty much standard for many developers, it’s kind of expected.

I do wonder if kids coming into work these days are pretty unprepared for the need to have to actually work. Not that I was ever the most industrious person but I’ve seen a lot of younger people since covid who just don’t last because they haven’t been able to adapt to remote work. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

I dunno.  Generational work ethic complaints are almost universal- there are editorials from almost any year in the last 150 years arguing the same thing.  I'd be very skeptical of claims about Gen Z being more unprepared for work than any other.  

And thus completely appropriate in this thread.

 

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I dunno.  Generational work ethic complaints are almost universal- there are editorials from almost any year in the last 150 years arguing the same thing.  I'd be very skeptical of claims about Gen Z being more unprepared for work than any other.  

And thus completely appropriate in this thread.

 

I am pretty sure Aristotle complained about the younger generation not being sufficiently prepared for life. Now get off my lawn.

[Luzifer's right hand]

It all started going downhill when writing was introduced. Lazy kids did not really having to use their memory anymore...

[Tywin et al.]

4 hours ago, baxus said:

I'm mostly with you on this. Ok, someone at the intern or beginner level can't expect the same salary as more experienced people, but they do need to be paid a realistic wage for the work they're doing. I guess it depends on the level of quality of interns and the field you're in, but in software development people who have graduated college (or are close to graduating), who have done some projects for their classes etc. will be useful members of the team quite quickly. I mean, I wasn't the best student in college but after 10 days in my first company I was working on some code that has been used for 10 years after that. It's more a case of helping interns adapt to their new environment and helping them expand their thinking a bit than actually teaching them stuff they should've learnt in college.

That's the rub though. This argument is used to dramatically underpay people or not pay them at all without benefits for doing work you'd expect from a entry level employee. Because they need "experience." 

[Tywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

There were news stories going around that Gen Z were the hardest generation to work with 

https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/employers-reveal-why-gen-z-is-hardest-generation-to-work-with/
 

It doesn't surprise me at all, I know a lot of very talented kids coming into the industry, but also just act like they have zero idea on how to behave around adults. 

When I started full time work I think I was pretty good at what I did but the major learning was how to talk to people in a business setting, using the right terms and understanding what people in other business areas care about might not be the same as you. I think all that shit takes a long time to learn, there is so many soft skills involved that I think a lot of kids probably don't have.

Likewise, Boomers are for the most part completely worthless with basic things.. They're less educated, less tech savvy, less thoughtful about the world and of course it's everyone else's fault for them not being able to remember their passwords, even when you write them down for them. But it's the young peoples' fault for things not working correctly!

2 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I dunno.  Generational work ethic complaints are almost universal- there are editorials from almost any year in the last 150 years arguing the same thing.  I'd be very skeptical of claims about Gen Z being more unprepared for work than any other.  

And thus completely appropriate in this thread.

 

There's an old line attributed to a Pharaoh from like 3,000 years ago complaining that the next generation would be the end of his empire. 

 

Edited May 2 by Tywin et al.

[Zorral]

"Après nous, le déluge" has so famously been attributed to King Louis XV.  It is equally famous that it was true. 

[RhaenysBee]

22 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Every current economic system takes advantage of labor, it's not just capitalism. However, we should not shrug at it or accept it. 

And the line about murder was meant to be a joke.

Yes that’s true, that’s why it’s always going to be this way. Which is not a good thing per se, but other than debate and philosophize over it, there’s nothing I can do about it. 

So I don’t sound so villainous, I will also say that my previous job, to this day, is looking for unpaid interns - that’s barbaric and a no go and I encourage everybody I know to not take the opportunity. I never repost their job adverts. That’s about the extent I can contribute to the intern rights cause. 

21 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Skinny jeans were the work of Satan.  Almost no one, including most thin people, actually looked good in them.    

I kinda believed I looked good in them  i may have been wrong   But I really struggled with the non skinny jeans when they had a renaissance. I have adjusted and found myself in mum jeans and straight leg jeans (as long as they are high waisted). The real low point were low rise jeans. *shudders* 

But I really enjoy the cargo pants renaissance! I bought two pairs, wore the khaki ones the other day with black converse and an all saints t shirt and I listened to Avril Lavigne and I felt freaking 13 again. It was glorious  

17 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

So doing work a freshman in high school, not college, could do?  

You know, as soon as my intern starts actually doing her job that a freshman in high school could do and she has allegedly been doing for a year, I will advocate that she gets a raise. But she really needs to start doing the work first. 
 

12 hours ago, baxus said:

To be honest, I'm not quite certain we are thinking of the same when we are saying intern. In my book it's someone who either needs to get some work experience in order to get some college credit or someone who's graduated college (or is planning to soon) and is just joining the workforce so they need the experience.

In companies I worked for I've had a chance to work with people who are really good at their job, adjusted for their lack of experience and all that. I've enjoyed working with younger people and helping them find their feet in their profession so much that in every single company I worked for I advocated getting some and moulding them the way we need them. Unfortunately, a lot of companies weren't interested and decided to go after senior people that are pretty hard to find in today's market.

Yes there are formal internships when the school expects the student to do a semester of field work with a company for credits. The difference is that they need a piece of paper for that and it’s a fixed term arrangement. The other type of intern you mention is really a fresh grad here, they don’t remain in internships for the previously mentioned legal reasons, they get hired for full time positions with little to no experience for shameless amounts of money (compared to senior salaries and compared to fresh grad salaries just three years ago).

I like working with interns as long as they have ownership of their responsibilities and a drive to solve problems. If they have those two basic things down, they have everything. Processes, methods, tips, tricks can be learned, networks can be built, professional knowledge can be acquired and applied and I can help them with that. I can’t do anything with a person who doesn’t have the will to recognize and attend their responsibilities. Probably, that’s my people management shortcoming too. 

12 hours ago, baxus said:

Yeah, living in Eastern/Southern Europe does mean I'll never be able to get rates my colleagues a thousand kilometres to the west get. Still, I can't really complain. Also, I quite like no student debts part

Oh I like Eastern Europe, there’s nothing like home. And part of what makes me Eastern European is loving to complain about it. But you know, only Eastern Europeans can talk shit about Eastern Europe. If anybody else tries, we get maaaaad.  

[Tywin et al.]

48 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Yes that’s true, that’s why it’s always going to be this way. Which is not a good thing per se, but other than debate and philosophize over it, there’s nothing I can do about it. 

So I don’t sound so villainous, I will also say that my previous job, to this day, is looking for unpaid interns - that’s barbaric and a no go and I encourage everybody I know to not take the opportunity. I never repost their job adverts. That’s about the extent I can contribute to the intern rights cause. 

It only has to be this way so long as we're cowed to accept it. And there is certainly a lot more you can do. 

Personally I have a good bit of fun screwing the hospital I work for over everyday. A lot of poor people's bills just magically disappear. 

Quote

You know, as soon as my intern starts actually doing her job that a freshman in high school could do and she has allegedly been doing for a year, I will advocate that she gets a raise. But she really needs to start doing the work first. 
 

Ever stop to think this person hates working for next to nothing? You're probably not getting the most out of them because they recognize how they're being taken advantage of? My personal experience is that most interns quickly see how unfair the situation is and they give you as little as they have to.

Take this one out for something to eat and then to an amusement park or something. You'll be shocked by how their attitude changes the next time they're in the office.

Quote

Yes there are formal internships when the school expects the student to do a semester of field work with a company for credits.

Oh joy, I'm glad I don't have to work 25-30 hours a week for $75 for a job that should have honestly paid me $25 per hour...

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

Gen Z folks I've worked with (early in career software devs) have been universally awesome. It's true they don't know how to behave early on but that was true of every gen, and they're far better than 10 or 15 years ago. My main coaching point for most of them is that they need to learn that asking for help is not a sign of weakness and I expect them to do that, but otherwise they've been great. 

To be fair some of that viewpoint might be my leadership style - I like collaboration, appreciate vulnerability, and encourage independence and trying things. That ain't always the best thing in every business.

[DMC]

37 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I like collaboration, appreciate vulnerability, and encourage independence

I don't buy it.  Poor Gen Zers are walking into a buzzsaw.

[baxus]

21 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

That's the rub though. This argument is used to dramatically underpay people or not pay them at all without benefits for doing work you'd expect from a entry level employee. Because they need "experience." 

Yes, we also have companies who offer "experience" as the main payoff here, but they are few and far between since if you do have an intern who turns to be good he'll leave as soon as he/she can and it's pretty hard to find suitable people in our industry.

14 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

I like working with interns as long as they have ownership of their responsibilities and a drive to solve problems. If they have those two basic things down, they have everything. Processes, methods, tips, tricks can be learned, networks can be built, professional knowledge can be acquired and applied and I can help them with that.

For some reason, I've only had experience with interns like this. I guess I was lucky.

14 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Oh I like Eastern Europe, there’s nothing like home. And part of what makes me Eastern European is loving to complain about it. But you know, only Eastern Europeans can talk shit about Eastern Europe. If anybody else tries, we get maaaaad.  

If you don't mind me asking, where are you from in Eastern Europe?

[3CityApache]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:39 PM, RhaenysBee said:

Oh I like Eastern Europe, there’s nothing like home. And part of what makes me Eastern European is loving to complain about it. But you know, only Eastern Europeans can talk shit about Eastern Europe. If anybody else tries, we get maaaaad.  

Sooo true

[Jace, Extat]

"It is impossible to live in the past..." and all

But does anyone else yearn to return to a time when you didn't have to preface a discussion with "As an X, Y, Z, I..." and it's basically mad libs gibberish to try and give yourself protection from cheap shot rebuttals that have nothing to do with the substance of your comment?  

[maarsen]

3 hours ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

"It is impossible to live in the past..." and all

But does anyone else yearn to return to a time when you didn't have to preface a discussion with "As an X, Y, Z, I..." and it's basically mad libs gibberish to try and give yourself protection from cheap shot rebuttals that have nothing to do with the substance of your comment?  

As I cannot live in the past I try hard to live in the future but it keeps getting left behind.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 hours ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

"It is impossible to live in the past..." and all

But does anyone else yearn to return to a time when you didn't have to preface a discussion with "As an X, Y, Z, I..." and it's basically mad libs gibberish to try and give yourself protection from cheap shot rebuttals that have nothing to do with the substance of your comment?  

Well, speaking as a white cis-het male, maybe it's not my place to say so!

Seriously though, I think some of the changes are good, and some are bad. I like that we can open up the envelope of perspectives beyond the status quo expectation, but I don't like that it's usually via illiberal domination tactics, shutting down discussions rather than building on them.

I just linked this in the US Politics thread. It's by a guy who's trying to get political organizations to rise above their self-cannibalizing tendencies.

https://forgeorganizing.org/article/building-resilient-organizations

In the article, he list some common negative trends that he's observed, and what's wrong about them. I don't know why he calls it "NeoLiberal Identity," but it's basically what you're talking about.

 

***************************

1. Neoliberal Identity

Definition

Using one’s identity or personal experience as a justification for a political position. You may hear someone argue, “As a working-class, first-generation American, Southern woman…I say we have to vote no.” What’s implied is that one's identity is a comprehensive validator of one’s political strategy—that identity is evidence of some intrinsic ideological or strategic legitimacy. Marginalized identity is deployed as a conveyor of a strategic truth that must simply be accepted. Likewise, historically privileged identities are essentialized, flattened, and frequently—for better or worse— dismissed.

Fallacies

To be clear, personal identity and individual experience are important. And while it is true that the “personal is political,” the personal cannot trump strategy nor should it overwhelm the collective interest. Identity is too broad a container to predict one’s politics or the validity of a particular position. There are over 40 million Black folk in the US. Some have great politics, some do not. One’s racial or gender identity, sex, or membership in any marginalized community is, in and of itself, insufficient information to position someone in leadership or mandate that their perspective be adopted.

People with marginal identities, as human beings, suffer all the frailties, inconsistencies, and failings of any other human. Genuflecting to individuals solely based on their socialized identities or personal stories deprives them of the conditions that sharpen arguments, develop skills, and win debates. We infantilize members of historically marginalized or oppressed groups by seeking to placate or pander instead of being in a right relationship, which requires struggle, debate, disagreement, and hard work. This type of false solidarity is a form of charity that weakens the individual and the collective. Finding authentic alignment and solidarity among diverse voices is serious labor. After all, “steel sharpens steel.”

Neoliberal identity politics strips from identity politics a focus on collective power or a political project and demand. What’s left is a narrow tool used as a personal cudgel or, as Barbara Smith has said, “It’s like they’ve taken the identity and left the politics on the floor.” It should be noted that we have already seen this tactic used against us on the Left and the Right in the fight for racial and economic justice. Identity in this context reaffirms the individualistic principles of neoliberalism instead of challenging them.

[Raja]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:40 AM, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Gen Z folks I've worked with (early in career software devs) have been universally awesome. It's true they don't know how to behave early on but that was true of every gen

Every year we get fresh medical graduates that I work with who are put into about the most pressure you can have in professional life, and this has also been my experience.

I don't really subscribe to generational cliches we seem keen to impose onto generations either, tbh.

[The Social Liability]

I'm turning 31 in July.

I'm young at heart, and the more I under-acknowledge "getting older" I make a fool out of myself. I don't do much on Facebook, a selfie sometimes, and I have a hard time trying to use my cell phone.