Salvaging the Stark's public image

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Sadly I don't think it will be acknowledged in any meaningful way by people who hate the Starks.

Of course it won’t be acknowledged in any way at all. We know this crowd isn’t here to engage in any sort of meaningful debate, they’re only here to throw around idiotic arguments and make ridiculously false claims. And it’s not just b/c they don’t like the Starks, but also b/c their understanding of the text leaves a lot to be desired. If they’ve read them at all, that is. 

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So if Robb et al are all evil for rebelling against Joffrey, I assume @Aline de Gavrillac, @Moiraine Sedai and @H Wadsworth Longfellow that you view Joffrey as the rightful king? Because if Daenerys is the rightful Queen, then Robb did nothing wrong by rebelling against Joffrey, who was never the rightful king so it wasn't treason in the first place. Could someone please explain this apparent conflict of opinion to me?

Robb had the temerity to rebel for Daenerys-unrelated reasons, didn't ask her permission, and didn't declare her rightful queen or send an ambassador to kowtow to her or offer to commit seppuku for the terrible crime of being born a Stark. He might as well have roasted a baby on a spit.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course it won’t be acknowledged in any way at all. We know this crowd isn’t here to engage in any sort of meaningful debate, they’re only here to throw around idiotic arguments and make ridiculously false claims. And it’s not just b/c they don’t like the Starks, but also b/c their understanding of the text leaves a lot to be desired. If they’ve read them at all, that is. 

If the books were to end with a showdown between Daenerys and the Starks, I could understand fans picking one side or the other (and if it were to end like that, I suspect that the author would wish to make both sides sympathetic).

Picking the Lannisters or Freys, or Boltons, over the Starks makes no sense at any level, since the Lannisters are Dany's enemies, and she would be disgusted by both Freys and Boltons.

Edited April 17, 2023 by SeanF

[divica]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So if Robb et al are all evil for rebelling against Joffrey, I assume @Aline de Gavrillac, @Moiraine Sedai and @H Wadsworth Longfellow that you view Joffrey as the rightful king? Because if Daenerys is the rightful Queen, then Robb did nothing wrong by rebelling against Joffrey, who was never the rightful king so it wasn't treason in the first place. Could someone please explain this apparent conflict of opinion to me?

Technically stannis is the rightfull king. Danny's familly lost the throne. She has a claim if she can conquer it, but stannis is the rightful heir to the throne. And Robb rebelled against stannis for no other reason than the northmen not wanting to be ruled by southerns.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If the books were to end with a showdown between Daenerys and the Starks, I could understand fans picking one side or the other (and if it were to end like that, I suspect that the author would wish to make both sides sympathetic).

Picking the Lannisters or Freys, or Boltons, over the Starks makes no sense at any level, since the Lannisters are Dany's enemies, and she would be disgusted by both Freys and Boltons.

I actually think the OP raised an interesting question. what do the people in the story think about the starks? because while the readers know the truth the people in westeros don't have acess to the same information as us. For example, I remember that there were all manner of rumors about how sansa escaped KL. Like she transformed into a winged wolf or something like that. If the smallfolk believe in those stories it is an interisting topic to discuss what the people in the diferent regions of westeros think of the starks...

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Technically stannis is the rightfull king. Danny's familly lost the throne. She has a claim if she can conquer it, but stannis is the rightful heir to the throne. And Robb rebelled against stannis for no other reason than the northmen not wanting to be ruled by southerns.

The Greatjon’s argument for independence is that their oaths of fealty were to the Targaryens, who are now gone.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

And Robb rebelled against stannis for no other reason than the northmen not wanting to be ruled by southerns

It was also because Stannis had not actually made a claim at that point and told no one at all of his intentions so... No one knew of his intentions until months later.

[divica]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Greatjon’s argument for independence is that their oaths of fealty were to the Targaryens, who are now gone.

 

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was also because Stannis had not actually made a claim at that point and told no one at all of his intentions so... No one knew of his intentions until months later.

Quote

Lady Mormont agreed. "Lord Stannis has the better claim."

"Renly is crowned," said Marq Piper. "Highgarden and Storm's End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?"

"The right," said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

Quote

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son's feet.

Robb and the northmen knew that stannis is the rightfull king if they want to pass over the lannisters. And the argument that they kneeled to the dragons and that stannis isn't a targ is at most only half the reason why they rebelled. I think nobody believes that at the time any northmen would kneel to viserys or danny after what their father and borther did...

And as I said, they don't want stannis or any of the other candidates because they aren't form the north as greatjon explain in the majority of his speech.

 

edt: Also the argument that they owed their fealty only to the dragons is false. The north was sworn to robert. They acepted the barateons as kings.

Edited April 17, 2023 by divica

[James West]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:01 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

House Stark has a bad reputation in the South.  They are known for treason and rebellion.  Eddard confessed to treason and the people reacted with hostility.  The public may not have liked their mercurial King Joffrey but they also condemn treason.  We the readers are privileged to know the reason why Eddard tried to take control of the kingdom away from Cersei and Joffrey.  But the commoners and the nobility are not.  They only know what they heard and what they witnessed.   It is also very much in doubt whether the Starks will be able to prove that Joffrey was not a Baratheon and thus was not the legal heir.  Catelyn Stark is known as the Lady who drew the lion into battle when she ordered the arrest of Tyrion.  She also murdered an innocent boy at the Red Wedding.  Sansa is forever tainted as an accomplice to King Joffrey's murder.   The Starks will never be able to prove that Jaime Lannister had tried to kill Bran.  

There are only two people alive who can salvage *some* of the Stark reputation and honor.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  Cersei has not done so for understandable if not selfish reasons.  Jaime has had many opportunities to help salvage the Starks' public image and reputation but he has not done it.  Will Jaime confess the needed information to redeem the Starks?

*Some of the reputation can be salvaged.  Perhaps Eddard was right to displace Cersei and Joffrey.  Jaime tried to kill Bran Stark and that was an insult to guest rights.  Let me repeat, Jaime broke guest rights.  Sansa knew nothing about the assassination of Joffrey until it happened.  But the fact that Robb rebelled and Jon broke his vows at the Wall, those are not redeemable. * 

Jon Snow and Bran Stark are never going to be accepted by the remaining people.  But there is hope for Rickon Stark.  The battle of ice will lead to the demise of Stannis and Roose.  Both sides will be weakened.  The Wildlings will bring in more of their own from the other side of the wall and take control of the north.  The Skagosi might get involved in this conflict.  The North will become very, very primitive and that is just the venue for savages like Rickon Cannibal, Jon Wight, Bran Tree, and Arya Faceless to survive in.  

The negative public image of House Stark is not undeserved.  And the words coming out of Jaime Lannister has the same value as the contents of his chamber pot.  In other words, the public opinion of the Starks south of the Neck will remain negative.  But those things do not matter to the Wildlings and the Skagosi cannibals who will come to dominate the North.  

[Craving Peaches]

31 minutes ago, James West said:

The North will become very, very primitive and that is just the venue for savages like Rickon Cannibal, Jon Wight, Bran Tree, and Arya Faceless to survive in.  

It is becoming impossible to take your arguments seriously. Could you at least try to tone down your bias a little? It is hard to have a proper conversation because everyone else is discussing what is actually written in the text whereas you are discussing what only exists in your mind and the rest of us aren't privy to that I'm afraid.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I actually think the OP raised an interesting question. what do the people in the story think about the starks? because while the readers know the truth the people in westeros don't have acess to the same information as us. For example, I remember that there were all manner of rumors about how sansa escaped KL. Like she transformed into a winged wolf or something like that. If the smallfolk believe in those stories it is an interisting topic to discuss what the people in the diferent regions of westeros think of the starks...

Plainly the people in the North think very highly of the Starks - as witness the Manderlys, the Mormonts, the Mountain Clans, and Stannis' desire to associate his cause with avenging House Stark.  

Places that suffered at the hands of Northern soldiers, such as Duskendale, or the Westerlands will think poorly of them.  

Feelings are probably somewhat mixed in the Riverlands.  The Red Wedding is considered a heinous crime (as it is everywhere), but there is probably some resentment at the fact that Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling had such disastrous consequences. 

[divica]

49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Plainly the people in the North think very highly of the Starks - as witness the Manderlys, the Mormonts, the Mountain Clans, and Stannis' desire to associate his cause with avenging House Stark.  

Places that suffered at the hands of Northern soldiers, such as Duskendale, or the Westerlands will think poorly of them.  

Feelings are probably somewhat mixed in the Riverlands.  The Red Wedding is considered a heinous crime (as it is everywhere), but there is probably some resentment at the fact that Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling had such disastrous consequences. 

I think you are generalizing too much. For example, I don't know how much robb or sansa are liked in the north. One is the king that lost the north and the other is lady lannister.

 

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, divica said:

I think you are generalizing too much. For example, I don't know how much robb or sansa are liked in the north. One is the king that lost the north and the other is lady lannister.

 

This is the response from the Mormonts:

Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

This is the exchange between Ser Davos and Wylla Manderly:

What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

Yes. They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb. He was our king! He was brave and good and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.

Lord Manderly to Ser Davos

Wylla. Did you see how brave she was? Even when I threatened to have her tongue out, she reminded me of the debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid. Wylla spoke from the heart ... not every woman can be as brave as my Wylla.  

Hugo Wull:

I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

Insofar as anyone thinks of Sansa, they would assume she was a prisoner, or by now, dead, after the death of Joffrey.  But, I think the quotes above show what the North thinks of the Starks in general.

[Alester Florent]

Even in King's Landing, the city that cheered Ned Stark's death, there were people calling for Robb at the bread riots. The Riverlands has submitted out of pragmatism and necessity but seems to be stacked to the gills with quiet Stark/Tully loyalists. The Vale was champing at the bit to join him and only Lysa held it back. It seems unlikely that the Reach or the Stormlands, regions which rebelled against Joffrey immediately the opportunity arose, let alone Dorne, which was never on board with the Baratheons to begin with and supposedly hates the Lannisters even more, bear any ill-will towards Robb for his rebellion.

If they think of him at all, it'll be as a great battle-leader who was murdered in a moment of abject treachery. They might think of him as an honourable man, or too headstrong for his own good, or not. There's no reason for any of them to dislike him.

The only regions likely to have any kind of grudge against Robb are those which suffered at his hands directly: the western Crownlands and the Westerlands, and even then the western Crownlands have no reason to love the Boltons either, since it was Roose who ordered the attack there.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The Starks don't need any salvaging. What is that absurd idea ?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Starks don't need any salvaging. What is that absurd idea ?

The Targaryens are the ones whose reputation needs salvaging after all the incest, Aerys' pyrophilia, not to mention all the bad rumours about Daenerys...of course they won't get it when Daenerys shows up with a load of foreigners, heathen zealots, Dothraki and (ex)slaves.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[The Commentator]

If I recall, the townsfolk were throwing things at Ned before his beheading.  The O/P is correct about Sansa. Robb tried to break the kingdom.  And Jon sent Mance to attack and murder the Warden of the North and steal his son’s wife.  It looks very bad for the Starks. 
 

 

[James Arryn]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suppose that to many in the South the Starks are ~ half wildling savages who worship trees and Ned’s confession will be the end of the discussion to many. Just look at RL prejudices about Scots/northerners and vice versa in medieval England, which IS the model GRRM is using for the whole North vs. south thing. I think many of you are expecting either too much reason or too much investment in finding out the truth of what’s what about the Starks in the south, when to most it’s worth no more than a moment’s gossip. Do you think the people of Barrowton spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the Martells are all about? Hell, we’ve met characters who don’t even know the Targs don’t rule anymore; westeros is not on Twitter. 
 

edit: rehabilitation doesn’t enter into it, either. For those whose knowledge of Ned will be ‘oh, the traitor what got his head chopped off’ there’s not really any need to rehabilitate, it will affect nothing and in 10 years they won’t even remember which northern lord that was. They don’t really care, they have their own issues. It’ll be different in the RL, of course…in fact maybe more so, the RL as usual being the battleground for other people’s quarrels. 
 

This is not me taking part in this ridiculous Stark vs. Targ imitation of US political stratification. Yeah, we need more of that crap. Doesn’t matter who is right or wrong, if it’s just intended to goad, why be goaded? 

Edited April 18, 2023 by James Arryn

[Lady Ella]

I'm currently relistening to A Clash of Kings and this line stood out to me: when Sansa bids Joffrey farewell before the Battle of the Blackwater, she says, "They say my brother Robb always goes where the fighting is thickest". It's interesting that that detail snuck through the Lannister propaganda. Who is saying this? In a martial society like Westeros, people would only say something like that in admiration. Even Jaime and Stannis remark on Robb's bravery.

Ned continues to have a reputation for being honourable and honest, even in the south. Despite all the names Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne call Jon, he still gets elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. So, despite the many attempts to discredit the Starks, there are certain positive details that cannot be denied. As the other Houses continue to erode Westeros' laws and customs and the situation deteriorates, the Starks will look better and better by comparison as Westeros feels the gaping whole left by their absence.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:05 AM, divica said:

Technically stannis is the rightfull king. Danny's familly lost the throne. She has a claim if she can conquer it, but stannis is the rightful heir to the throne. And Robb rebelled against stannis for no other reason than the northmen not wanting to be ruled by southerns.

Stannis is very immature and very stupid to have seen Robb's war as an act of rebellion against him. It's not Robb's fault that Stannis took forever and a day to press his claim when he knew exactly what kind of game Cersei was playing.

It's yet another reason why he would be a bad king. 

Notice how Stannis has not espoused any of his anti-Stark views since he made it to the Wall? Even if he doesn't know what's up, he knows that any anti-Stark views will kill his campaign for the Iron Throne in its proverbial cradle.

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Robb tried to break the kingdom.

Man, stop playing. The kingdom was already broken

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

And Jon sent Mance to attack and murder the Warden of the North and steal his son’s wife.

This is bad, yes.

On 4/17/2023 at 9:32 AM, divica said:

I think you are generalizing too much. For example, I don't know how much robb or sansa are liked in the north. One is the king that lost the north and the other is lady lannister.

As @SeanF stated previously, the Red Wedding had turned Robb - for all of his flaws - into a martyr. The northmen and the rivermen revere him. Valemen love him so much that they regret not being able to fight and die for him. Dornishmen would simply like him based on the fact that he spent most of his time kicking Lannister ass. Reachmen and the Stormlanders - by in large - respect him as a general but would otherwise be indifferent at best. 

The only person who refers to Sansa as Lady Lannister is Stannis, inflexible and bitter as he is. Regardless of her marriage (which was so transparently forced upon her), Sansa is still a legitimate Stark of Winterfell.

Seeing as Sansa is widely considered to have at least played a key role in the murder of King Joffrey and then abandoning Tyrion without a second thought, she will likely be treated as a hero in the North and the Riverlands. She avenged the Red Wedding and left the Imp for dead in one fell swoop....only to vanish without a trace. Although that clearly is untrue, it is quite the accomplishment and Sansa would be wise to not correct people.

So while the northerners revere Robb and have a level of sympathy and appreciation for Sansa, southerners fear them both. But fearing them does not mean that they did anything wrong or that their reputation needs to be salvaged or restored. Fear in this world (and even in ours) is a good thing. It often translates into respect.

I do find it very interesting that both Robb and Sansa are viewed as wily and powerful shape-shifters and that that really random and interesting tidbit is spreading all across the continent. Telling.

George R.R. Martin...if you're reading this, I see what you're doing. You clever fox you.