Salvaging the Stark's public image

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:01 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

*Some of the reputation can be salvaged.  Perhaps Eddard was right to displace Cersei and Joffrey.  Jaime tried to kill Bran Stark and that was an insult to guest rights.  Let me repeat, Jaime broke guest rights.  Sansa knew nothing about the assassination of Joffrey until it happened.  But the fact that Robb rebelled and Jon broke his vows at the Wall, those are not redeemable. * 

For the people in the South, or for you? The Starks only need to frame Cersei's mismanagement as...well, mismanagement, and get in bed (politically) with either Dany or Aegon, and they should be set reputationally, considering the Boltons are fucked in the head. 

And obviously Ned was right to attempt to get Joff off the throne, and broadly Robb was right that, after the fall of the Targaryen dynasty, the only source of legitimate cross-regional power, the North was justified in rebellion, and Jon never broke his vows.

[kissdbyfire]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:07 AM, Craving Peaches said:

you are discussing what only exists in your mind and the rest of us aren't privy to that I'm afraid.

And thank the Old Gods and the new for that!

[SeanF]

The notion that there is any body of people who think that Robb was wrong to rebel against Joffrey (outside the ranks of Lannister loyalists, or those directly in the path of the Northern army), seems bizarre to me.

No one outside the North has heard anything of Ramsay Bolton, or much of Roose, but nobody in the North is going to condemn Jon for opposing them.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:01 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

House Stark has a bad reputation in the South.  They are known for treason and rebellion.  Eddard confessed to treason and the people reacted with hostility.  The public may not have liked their mercurial King Joffrey but they also condemn treason.  We the readers are privileged to know the reason why Eddard tried to take control of the kingdom away from Cersei and Joffrey.  But the commoners and the nobility are not.  They only know what they heard and what they witnessed.   It is also very much in doubt whether the Starks will be able to prove that Joffrey was not a Baratheon and thus was not the legal heir.  Catelyn Stark is known as the Lady who drew the lion into battle when she ordered the arrest of Tyrion.  She also murdered an innocent boy at the Red Wedding.  Sansa is forever tainted as an accomplice to King Joffrey's murder.   The Starks will never be able to prove that Jaime Lannister had tried to kill Bran.  

There are only two people alive who can salvage *some* of the Stark reputation and honor.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  Cersei has not done so for understandable if not selfish reasons.  Jaime has had many opportunities to help salvage the Starks' public image and reputation but he has not done it.  Will Jaime confess the needed information to redeem the Starks?

*Some of the reputation can be salvaged.  Perhaps Eddard was right to displace Cersei and Joffrey.  Jaime tried to kill Bran Stark and that was an insult to guest rights.  Let me repeat, Jaime broke guest rights.  Sansa knew nothing about the assassination of Joffrey until it happened.  But the fact that Robb rebelled and Jon broke his vows at the Wall, those are not redeemable. * 

The glory of House Stark is all in the past.  They will reclaim the North but that will never be seen as legitimate below the Neck. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

On 4/17/2023 at 5:38 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Starks don't need any salvaging. What is that absurd idea ?

Seems like a lot of folk are still angry about how the TV show ended for House Targaryen.

[SeanF]

43 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Seems like a lot of folk are still angry about how the TV show ended for House Targaryen.

The Abomination portrayed the Starks,  by the end, as Season 1 Lannisters with different hair colour.

But, Ding and Dong’s take on tge tale was a very strange one.

[Darth Sidious]

Jaime confessing to help the Starks. I don’t think so.  He might clear Tyrion and Sansa for the death of Joffrey but that will not remove the taint on Jon for what he did at the Watch. A reveal from Jaime could help a little but not nearly enough. 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jaime confessing to help the Starks. I don’t think so.  He might clear Tyrion and Sansa for the death of Joffrey but that will not remove the taint on Jon for what he did at the Watch. A reveal from Jaime could help a little but not nearly enough. 

Jaime can't clear Tyrion and Sansa for killing Joffrey.  He has no idea who did it.  In fact, he tells Brienne he thinks Sansa is actually guilty.  Only Littlefinger or the Tyrells can clear Sansa, and they're not talking.  Fortunately, once Cersei leaves the scene, nobody is likely to care enough to matter.

[SeanF]

Killing Joffrey is considered a public service, even by his own father.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jaime confessing to help the Starks. I don’t think so.  He might clear Tyrion and Sansa for the death of Joffrey but that will not remove the taint on Jon for what he did at the Watch. A reveal from Jaime could help a little but not nearly enough. 

Jon did nothing wrong 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/19/2023 at 7:11 AM, SeanF said:

The notion that there is any body of people who think that Robb was wrong to rebel against Joffrey (outside the ranks of Lannister loyalists, or those directly in the path of the Northern army), seems bizarre to me.

No one outside the North has heard anything of Ramsay Bolton, or much of Roose, but nobody in the North is going to condemn Jon for opposing them.

Jon is guilty of other things in addition to picking a fight with the Boltons. The mission to get Arya from Ramsay was illegal. Mance got caught. His women confessed. Jon is now known in the north as a liar and an oathbreaker.   

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is guilty of other things in addition to picking a fight with the Boltons. The mission to get Arya from Ramsay was illegal. Mance got caught. His women confessed. Jon is now known in the north as a liar and an oathbreaker.   

Oh fuck off w/ these ridiculous statements.
Jon a liar and someone who breaks his word, like when Dany agreed to sell Drogon then killed the guy she’d made the deal with? 
Yeah, it’s a dumb af argument b/c slavers are nasty arseholes who deserved what they got, just as the Boltons will when they get what they deserve. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh fuck off w/ these ridiculous statements.
Jon a liar and someone who breaks his word, like when Dany agreed to sell Drogon then killed the guy she’d made the deal with? 
Yeah, it’s a dumb af argument b/c slavers are nasty arseholes who deserved what they got, just as the Boltons will when they get what they deserve. 

I would actually like a pov in winterfell to know what the people there think about ramsay's statements in the PL.

Do people believe abel is mance rider or that ramsay is lying? Because for the people in winterfell his story must sound insane.

Even theon helping farya escape after everything he has done must sound insane. 

Him wanting to march to CB must sound insane.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, divica said:

I would actually like a pov in winterfell to know what the people there think about ramsay's statements in the PL.

Do people believe abel is mance rider or that ramsay is lying? Because for the people in winterfell his story must sound insane.

Even theon helping farya escape after everything he has done must sound insane. 

Him wanting to march to CB must sound insane.

 

I really don’t think people at Winterfell have the foggiest about the PL, and I’m including Roose here.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I really don’t think people at Winterfell have the foggiest about the PL, and I’m including Roose here.

in the letter ramsay says he has mance in a cage for all the north to see.

He has to have told the people in winterfell something about the man they are seeing in a cage covered in the skins of several women.

And if he intends to march to CB he has to have told them why. 

I am not saying that ramsay told the people there exactly what he wrote, but he must have told them that the dude in a cage was mance, that he kidnaped (?) farya with theon's help under jon's orders (?) and therefore he is going to attack CB to get his bride back?

And given that everybody knows mance was burned by stannis (in the PL we are told this is common knowledge) and that theon has betrayed the starks several times and even killed bran and rickon ramsay's whole story sounds crazy.

right?

[kissdbyfire]

38 minutes ago, divica said:

in the letter ramsay says he has mance in a cage for all the north to see.

He has to have told the people in winterfell something about the man they are seeing in a cage covered in the skins of several women.

And if he intends to march to CB he has to have told them why. 

I am not saying that ramsay told the people there exactly what he wrote, but he must have told them that the dude in a cage was mance, that he kidnaped (?) farya with theon's help under jon's orders (?) and therefore he is going to attack CB to get his bride back?

And given that everybody knows mance was burned by stannis (in the PL we are told this is common knowledge) and that theon has betrayed the starks several times and even killed bran and rickon ramsay's whole story sounds crazy.

right?

No one in Winterfell knows about the PL imo. Does Ramsay really have Mance in a cage wearing a skin cloak? And even if he has, he can say anything, “I saw this man skulking around where he doesn’t belong, leave him to me and I’ll make him talk”. Or any number of things he could come up w/, and that’s IF he has Mance. I think he does, but maybe he doesn’t. 

[Rondo]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:01 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

House Stark has a bad reputation in the South.  They are known for treason and rebellion.  Eddard confessed to treason and the people reacted with hostility.  The public may not have liked their mercurial King Joffrey but they also condemn treason.  We the readers are privileged to know the reason why Eddard tried to take control of the kingdom away from Cersei and Joffrey.  But the commoners and the nobility are not.  They only know what they heard and what they witnessed.   It is also very much in doubt whether the Starks will be able to prove that Joffrey was not a Baratheon and thus was not the legal heir.  Catelyn Stark is known as the Lady who drew the lion into battle when she ordered the arrest of Tyrion.  She also murdered an innocent boy at the Red Wedding.  Sansa is forever tainted as an accomplice to King Joffrey's murder.   The Starks will never be able to prove that Jaime Lannister had tried to kill Bran.  

There are only two people alive who can salvage *some* of the Stark reputation and honor.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  Cersei has not done so for understandable if not selfish reasons.  Jaime has had many opportunities to help salvage the Starks' public image and reputation but he has not done it.  Will Jaime confess the needed information to redeem the Starks?

*Some of the reputation can be salvaged.  Perhaps Eddard was right to displace Cersei and Joffrey.  Jaime tried to kill Bran Stark and that was an insult to guest rights.  Let me repeat, Jaime broke guest rights.  Sansa knew nothing about the assassination of Joffrey until it happened.  But the fact that Robb rebelled and Jon broke his vows at the Wall, those are not redeemable. * 

Robb Stark was a rebellious lord.  Future history books will paint him as a divisive figure.  

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

History books are written by the victorious.  The Starks were able to suppress the scandal of the Night's King.  Imagine they can do the same to cover up for Robb in the North.  The South is another matter.  They have no sway in the South. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

History books are written by the victorious.  The Starks were able to suppress the scandal of the Night's King.  Imagine they can do the same to cover up for Robb in the North.  The South is another matter.  They have no sway in the South. 

Please enlighten me, what scandal is that?

[LongRider]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Please enlighten me, what scandal is that?

Each of Bran's siblings got a direwolf, all he got was a dog.  Or so I've been told.