Atrocities and War Crimes: Do You or Can You Justify Them?

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Personally, as awful as Prince Daeron’s sacking and burning of Bitterbridge was, I completely understand why he did it. And I don’t feel sorry for the people or Lady Caswell. Ripping a toddler limb from limb, even in an angry mob, is evil.

[SeanF]

Well, I don’t expect The Hague or Geneva Conventions to have any traction in this world.

That said, burning hundreds of innocents alive, after trapping them in a sept, after Lady Caswell had already executed the criminals, is hard to defend.

It would be somewhat different, had Lady Caswell protected the guilty, and refused to surrender the town.

Edited April 19, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Personally, as awful as Prince Daeron’s sacking and burning of Bitterbridge was, I completely understand why he did it. And I don’t feel sorry for the people or Lady Caswell. Ripping a toddler limb from limb, even in an angry mob, is evil.

I despise the concept of collective guilt. What happened was evil, and the evildoers were punished. Then Dareon came along and burned hundreds-thousands of innocents alive. All that is, is an unnecessary waste of life. And impossible to justify, because the wrongdoers had already been hung.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

“You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.”

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Lady Caswell also sent the body to Daeron and Maelor’s greatest enemy. Instead of to Oldtown. But they sent the dragon egg there.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Lady Caswell also sent the body to Daeron and Maelor’s greatest enemy. Instead of to Oldtown. But they sent the dragon egg there.

Well, Rhaenyra was the head of the family, at that point, and would certainly have wanted her great nephew's murderers to be punished.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I despise the concept of collective guilt. What happened was evil, and the evildoers were punished. Then Dareon came along and burned hundreds-thousands of innocents alive. All that is, is an unnecessary waste of life. And impossible to justify, because the wrongdoers had already been hung.

I understand that. And I agree with that. 
 

They really should’ve given his body to the Hightowers instead of Rhaenyra. And they should’ve handed the 3 people they hung over to Daeron instead of hanging them.

[James Steller]

2 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

And they should’ve handed the 3 people they hung over to Daeron instead of hanging them.

Why? Do you advocate that the family members of murder victims get a hold of the killers? Is that how you think the justice system should work? What happens if the evidence isn’t always clear cut? What happens if someone is found to be innocent later on?

Edited April 19, 2023 by James Steller

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Why? Do you advocate that the family members of murder victims get a hold of the killers? Is that how you think the justice system should work? What happens if the evidence isn’t always clear cut? What happens if someone is found to be innocent later on?

First off this isn’t a modern society. It’s a medieval fantasy setting in a feudalistic society. Secondly, if they were guilty enough to hang, they were guilty enough to just hand over to Daeron and the Hightowers. Especially as a bargaining chip to keep the city from being sacked.

[Daeron the Daring]

What you mean, I didn't kill anyone at Bitterbridge.

And they deserved it anyway.

(but nothing happened)

Edited April 19, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[The hairy bear]

23 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

It’s a medieval fantasy setting in a feudalistic society.

Even in a "medieval fantasy setting in a feudalistic society" it is Lady Caswell who has the legitimacy to impart justice on Caswell lands. Not another lord from distant lands, nor the sixteen-year old uncle of the victim.

It was Lady Caswell's duty to judge the murder. She did it swiftly, and even went as far as to execute people whose guiltiness was dubious. What happened at the Hogs Head is not her fault.

23 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Secondly, if they were guilty enough to hang, they were guilty enough to just hand over to Daeron and the Hightowers. Especially as a bargaining chip to keep the city from being sacked.

You are now arguing that the fact that Lady Caswell sent Maelor's head to King's Landing was seen as an insult. And there's absolutely no basis for that. Maelor's mother and Maelor's grandmother were living there. Even if they were kept as prisoners, there was no reason to imagine that Rhaenyra wouldn't let them honor the memory of the poor boy. It makes much more sense to send the body to them, and not to an underage uncle.

As you have quoted, Daeron claimed that he would sack Tumbleton to give them the same treatment "they" had given Maelor. There's nothing hinting that he was unhappy for not having received Maelor's head.

But even if you want to believe that... that would only mean that Lady Caswell had to be punished. What about the hundreds of wounded that were burned alive in a sept? What about the people of the town who were put to the sword or driven to the river to drown?

Edited April 19, 2023 by The hairy bear

[Craving Peaches]

Burning alive innocent wounded people who have taken refuge in a Sept is objectively bad by in-word standards anyway.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I just enjoy them. It's for the characters to justify and rationalize their actions, I'm just a reader. If we really need to review whether or not torching innocents for good winds is a morally justifiable act, we've got bigger problems than the release date of the next book.

[illrede]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I despise the concept of collective guilt. What happened was evil, and the evildoers were punished. Then Dareon came along and burned hundreds-thousands of innocents alive. All that is, is an unnecessary waste of life. And impossible to justify, because the wrongdoers had already been hung.

This would be the "High Noon" issue. They weren't punished for what they did, they were punished for what they didn't do. The point would be to revise the rational calculation that not being yourself most likely torn to death by a baying mob when you would have failed to accomplish anything anyway when the life of a Royal is at hazard is a safe course of action, or even of equal weight to the alternative.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Personally, as awful as Prince Daeron’s sacking and burning of Bitterbridge was, I completely understand why he did it. And I don’t feel sorry for the people or Lady Caswell. Ripping a toddler limb from limb, even in an angry mob, is evil.

That's just nonsense in context. The toddler's death was an accident, done without the knowledge or authorization of Lady Caswell or any other person of authority in the town.

If we go by this silly standard then Jaehaerys I should have also ripped his own entrails out for the murder of Rego Draz. After all, was he not king of the city of King's Landing and all of Westeros and were thus the thugs not acting on his behalf, command, authority? Like the thugs of the Hog's Head and the other lowlifes obviously acted on behalf of the good people of Bitterbridge and Lady Caswell?

Now, in a medieval setting there is justification for a (brutal) sack of a town or castle ... if you give terms, they are rejected and you are forced to besiege or storm the place. Both is costly and risky, depleting your provisions and funds and might very well end your entire war effort (if you run out of food and money before the besieged enemy does). So sacking and raiding is a crucial way in which you give your troops the money you might already owe them.

In the context of Bitterbridge we talk about a town full of refugees which was offering no resistance whatsoever. Sacking it served no purpose and was just a cruel act. It also didn't avenge Prince Maelor since Lady Caswell had already done that.

It is quite noteworthy in context that so far even Lady Stoneheart differentiates between guilty and not guilty Freys (and Wyman Manderly seems to be doing the same, to a point). The great and noble Prince Daeron the Daring some people seem to hold in high esteem (never mind that he also turned traitor to brothers-at-arms later on) didn't seem to catch that difference. Which actually tells us something here about the mindset of those people. The savagery of Tumbleton is already there at the Sack of Bitterbridge, written small - Lord Ormund and Daeron just sugar-coat it.

How fucked up they already are you can draw from the fact that Lady Caswell has to publicly hang herself from her own gatehouse in front of Lord Ormund that they have the grace to not slay her children.

[illrede]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just nonsense in context.

No, it's unreasonable.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I despise the concept of collective guilt. What happened was evil, and the evildoers were punished. Then Dareon came along and burned hundreds-thousands of innocents alive. All that is, is an unnecessary waste of life. And impossible to justify, because the wrongdoers had already been hung.

Collective punishment is always a part of war.  Had Daeron imposed a huge fine upon the town, this would probably have been thought fair.  Had Lady Caswell protected the guilty, and/or offered resistance, then a brutal sack would have been deemed just.

But, I think this falls into the same category as the Harrying of the North, an act that is unjust, even by the standards of medieval warfare.

Lady Caswell did all she could to punish the guilty, and to make amends, and offered no resistance at all.

[illrede]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Collective punishment is always a part of war.  Had Daeron imposed a huge fine upon the town, this would probably have been thought fair.  Had Lady Caswell protected the guilty, and/or offered resistance, then a brutal sack would have been deemed just.

But, I think this falls into the same category as the Harrying of the North, an act that is unjust, even by the standards of medieval warfare.

Lady Caswell did all she could to punish the guilty, and to make amends, and offered no resistance at all.

I'd say because she knew what was coming; the 7 Kingdoms still has dragons, Targaryens are still semi-divine by their own reckoning. 

So the 7 Kingdoms exists to be a resource and domain of House Targaryen, that's the constitution of the realm. Targaryens have the standing to initiate acts against Targaryens. Nobody else does. Lese-majeste is as bad as it gets. Cersei and Mycah, but with mass consensus. There was no hope, and she knew it. For being at all proximate to it, in distance and agency. She did the only thing that stood to work, and it didn't. If the realm was at peace, if the throne was secure... but in the middle of the Dance, with the known personalities involved?

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, illrede said:

I'd say because she knew what was coming; the 7 Kingdoms still has dragons, Targaryens are still semi-divine by their own reckoning. 

So the 7 Kingdoms exists to be a resource and domain of House Targaryen, that's the constitution of the realm. Targaryens have the standing to initiate acts against Targaryens. Nobody else does. Lese-majeste is as bad as it gets. Cersei and Mycah, but with mass consensus. There was no hope, and she knew it. For being at all proximate to it, in distance and agency. She did the only thing that stood to work, and it didn't. If the realm was at peace, if the throne was secure... but in the middle of the Dance, with the known personalities involved?

The killing of Mycah was illegal (the law is that someone who strikes a member of the royal family loses the hand or foot in question), but no one present actually cared about a butcher's boy, other than Arya.

Obviously, murdering a member of the royal family is going to incur a death sentence, and indeed, had Lady Caswell handed the murderers over, they wouldn't have got away with just a hanging.  Likely they'd have been burned at the stake, or disembowelled.  

But the massacre of an entire town, whose people offered no resistance, and whose leader did all in her power to avenge the murder of Maelor?  That is excessive.

[illrede]

Excessive, but within the anticipated range of outcomes.

 

EDIT: On 'constitution', something everyone knows in their bones. Cersei had to lobby Robert in his cups because that just isn't the case- her aggressive insecurity that comes out over everything is partly expressed here- a Lannister-Baratheon isn't much of a thing as these things go she suspects, and it goes on to be proven in other ways over time. Nobody had to tell Lady Caswell anything- that consuming feeling of sick dread she spent the entire rest of her life in she came by spontaneously.

Edited April 20, 2023 by illrede