Variety: Alys Rivers and “Alyn of Hull” cast

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Aging up Alyn obviously opens up the idea that, on the show, he's the result of an affair from before Corlys was married to Rhaenys, which I gather is an issue a lot of people have with Corlys from the books because I guess moral purity plays.

That was my idea as well there ... although for that a character in his 40s would be the better choice. Corlys and Rhaenys clearly were already married at the Great Council in the show, which took place at least ten years before the show.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Simon Russell Beale is an amazing actor. I wonder if they'll beef up Simon's role any to take advantage of that? I hope he gets at least a good monologue. 

Couldn't care less about Gwayne Hightower and Simon Strong, to be honest. They are not characters in the book, and we don't really need them for anything of importance. If Gwayne matters, he should have been there as Otto's and Alicent advisor throughout season 1.

4 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

1) the "Laenor is Addam" theory turns out to be true in the show.

I'd expect they go with that for the rider for Seasmoke. It is the way to go, after they didn't kill Laenor and after they included polygamy as a thing the Targaryens do. Rhaenyra is going to be a queen with two consorts for a time in the show, one imagines, and that might contribute to things getting fucked up with Daemon.

4 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

2) Addam and Alyn are combined into one character, thus making changes to the "LOYAL!" subplot.

The LOYAL! subplot is not going to make it into the show, at least not the epitaph thing, so that should be a non-issue.

4 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Hopefully we will have a casting for Addam soon enough and everything will be clearer for everyone.

Would certainly something to be preferred, but it makes no sense to announce Alyn's casting and not Addam's as well. The latter is the actual character during the Dance. Alyn is a boy who gets mentioned once or twice.

4 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Having more Harrenhal scenes with Daemon interacting with Simon and/or Alys would be a good idea. It would make a bigger impact when Aemond takes back Harrenhal later on and executes Simon and takes Alys as a lover. Plus it's not like we have a lot of information on what Daemon was doing in Harrenhal apart from gattering the riverlords for the blacks.

I guess they can stand around there for some talk ... Simon could also provide exposition on the Strongs as a house and, especially, the personality and issues of Larys Strong - which would be overdue at this point.

But Daemon shouldn't sit on his ass all day.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s a fan theory that they kept Laenor alive so that he can come back disguised as Addam of Hull. Personally, I think that’s pretty stupid, but the way his death was faked was pretty stupid too.

If they are doing that, then not in this silly way but openly. Laenor Velaryon returns from the grave, mounts his dragon again, and takes his rightful place at Rhaenyra's side. The polygamy thing has been established.

Whether he would then die Addam style I couldn't say, but he certainly could, for some reason.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think there’s a good chance that they may change it so that Alyn is Vaemond’s bastard son instead of Corlys. Then Rhaenyra can be seen “making amends” by naming Vaemond’s son the Lord of Driftmark.

Thought about that, too, but I don't think the plot would need a Hull guy lacking a dragon, so why would they do something like that?

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It would be extremely stupid, unless Laenor has become a Faceless Man or learned how to use glamor. Otherwise everyone would recognize him and goodbye, the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's second marriage and her youngest two sons. Laenor coming back wouldn't help Rhaenyra, it would only help her enemies, and he sure couldn't play a similar role to Adda.

Polygamy is a thing.

 

[Annara Snow]

"Polygamy is a thing"

Not in Westeros, I'm afraid. .Maegor was the last who tried and ir didn't end well...and no one wants to be compared to him.

Not to mention even Targaryens never tried to do polygamy where the woman was the one with multiple spouses.

 

Edited April 24 by Annara Snow

[Colonel Green]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Couldn't care less about Gwayne Hightower and Simon Strong, to be honest. They are not characters in the book, and we don't really need them for anything of importance. If Gwayne matters, he should have been there as Otto's and Alicent advisor throughout season 1.

I find this bizarre reasoning. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The LOYAL! subplot is not going to make it into the show, at least not the epitaph thing, so that should be a non-issue.

The epitaph seems pretty sure to be in the show.

Edited April 25 by Colonel Green

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's bizarre logic.

The epitaph seems pretty sure to be in the show.

You mean because book Alyn added it only years after the end of the war?

Without Regency stuff this has no place in the show.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"Polygamy is a thing"

Not in Westeros, I'm afraid. .Maegor was the last who tried and ir didn't end well...and no one wants to be compared to him.

Not to mention even Targaryens never tried to do polygamy where the woman was the one with multiple spouses.

Who cares? Show Daemon shoehorned the concept into show canon in episode 2. Nobody said he couldn't do it ... they were just disgusted by Mysaria marrying into the royal family.

Also, of course, they can do what they want in the show.

They already did it, by the way. Rhaenyra Targaryen does have two consorts in the show. She married Daemon Targaryen while Laenor Velaryon was still alive ... she knows it, Daemon knows it, Laenor knows it, and Qarl knows it. The fact that only they know that Laenor is alive is just a technicality.

All season 2 is going to do is reveal this to the world ... which certainly might cause friction within the family, but not because it is 'evil polygamy' but rather because they faked Laenor's death, Laenor abandoned his children and parents, and, perhaps, also because Laenor's return might have him actually be Rhaenyra's proper husband and a proper father to his sons for once, complicating their relationship with Daemon.

It is all there in season 1. Laenor wanted to be a father to his children and a proper husband when Rhaenyra sent him away. So once he hears about Luke's death and the war he'll come back to help, regretting he ever left. The only reason why he wouldn't do this is if he was actually dead by then. Which is a road they could take ... but which they likely might not as missing Addam might indicate (also the fact that killing him in absentia would mean they killed the gay man there, after all, without depicting it).

In the book canon polygamy fell out of practice after Maegor ... but there are obviously two very valid precedents for polygamy among Targaryen monarchs. Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel are rather prominent Targaryen monarchs. Any monarch succeeding them wanting to set up a harem of spouses can point to either of them to justify the practice. And as FaB hammers home with Saera ... Targaryen women kind of noticed that fact, too.

Edited April 25 by Lord Varys

[The Bard of Banefort]

It is kind of funny how none of Alicent’s many relatives look anything like her.

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It is kind of funny how none of Alicent’s many relatives look anything like her.

Aegon looks a lot like her in the show. Just switch the hair and eye color and it becomes obvious. People have posted pictures of Tom with dark hair from another show and he looks almost the same as Olivia and Emily. They have almost the same face shape and features.

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

Couldn't care less about Gwayne Hightower and Simon Strong, to be honest. They are not characters in the book, and we don't really need them for anything of importance. If Gwayne matters, he should have been there as Otto's and Alicent advisor throughout season 1.

Gwayne Hightower is in the book.

Edited April 26 by Frey family reunion

[Annara Snow]

55 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Gwayne Hightower is in the book.

So is Simon Strong. And he's definitely necessary for the story.

Unless @Lord Varys thinks that Daemon doesn't need to interact with people in Harrenhal when he takes it, and then Aemond is just going to be calm and collected when he takes Harrenhal and not accuse Simon of treason, challenge him to a duel and kill him and then his grandsons too in one of his bouts of rage. Who needs drama in the show, right? 

Edited April 26 by Annara Snow

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Gwayne Hightower is in the book.

Of course he is! He is just not a character the show really needed. Especially not now. The time to develop Otto's family was in season 1 where they actually took time to feature Otto's brother and sister-in-law. There is no chance that the Hand's son wouldn't be at his side in KL, commanding his guard or acting as an adviser/henchman. After all, Otto is a landless younger son, so his sons wouldn't even be worse off than Otto. They would be desperate for positions at court ... and Otto would do anything in his power to give them whatever office he could secure for them. It is a pretty big letdown that FaB doesn't flesh out Alicent's family at all. There should have been more Hightowers at court than just Otto, Alicent, and Gwayne when the war begins ... although we can speculate that Lord Ormund's cousin Ser Bryndon (the guy Roddy the Ruin takes out) might have been another son of Otto's. He could have been Ormund's first cousin, after all, and it does make some sense that Otto and Alicent would want a son/brother in Oldtown to ensure that the lordly branch of House Hightower remains firmly in the Green camp.

Having him now raises the question where the hell the guy was during the coup, the Vaemond incident, Otto's earlier machinations, the royal hunt which was full of proto-Greens including Otto's brother and sister-in-law. Otto's entire family should have been there, celebrating Aegon's nameday, and Gwayne should have had a prominent position at court as the queen's brother from the day Alicent wed Viserys. And, of course, the pilot did set up something there with Gwayne and Daemon in the lists which the show later never developed or delivered on. That was a disappointment.

Having Gwayne in a big role now is even harder to explain than the sudden appearance of Prince Daeron.

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

So is Simon Strong. And he's definitely necessary for the story.

Unless @Lord Varys thinks that Daemon doesn't need to interact with people in Harrenhal when he takes it, and then Aemond is just going to be calm and collected when he takes Harrenhal and not accuse Simon of treason, challenge him to a duel and kill him and then his grandsons too in one of his bouts of rage. Who needs drama in the show, right? 

Honestly, I'm not sure why there should be a lot of scenes featuring Daemon at Harrenhal. That would mostly be repetitive and boring dialogue scenes - like the shit GoT made up for Tywin and Arya. If there has to be a lot of Daemon stuff in season 2 ... they could have him fly around the Riverlands assembling an army, could depict the campaign against the Brackens in some detail, could show him fly back to Dragonstone to talk with family there ... or have Rhaenyra or Baela visit him there on dragonback.

The last thing we need there is him talking to random people for no other reason that they are there. Of course, Alys Rivers needs to be introduced eventually (although the fact that Daemon didn't care for her at all would also allow them to postpone that mostly until Aemond shows up there). I'm not against seeing her early ... but if she doesn't do anything of note (and she shouldn't) then her scenes might just be a waste of time.

And, yes, Simon Strong and his three grandsons and other Strongs should be mainly there so that Aemond has Strongs to kill later on ... but those are definitely not exactly great story elements.

Although, of course, to beef up the later Strong slaughter we could see Simon Strong and the other Strongs declaring for Rhaenyra in the wake of Daemon's arrival there - helping to explain why and how a lonely dude with a dragon could actually take and hold a huge castle without the support of a single man-at-arms. They could do that not just because 'Daemon has a dragon' (as the book implies) - forgetting that 'Daemon is a human being and has to sleep' (which means they would have hours and hours to murder the man) - but rather because they know or suspect what kind of a monstrous freak Larys Strong is and what he did to Lyonel and Harwin. Cutting your ties with that shithead seems like the most natural thing in the world. Even more so if they know or believe that a Strong is now Rhaenyra's immediate heir.

If the Strongs and their levies were to actually make up the core of Daemon's forces in the Riverlands then Aemond's later asshead behavior might be a tidbit more justified. Only a tidbit, though, of course, since there is actually no excuse for this.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:39 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I personally think they could combine Jace’s role with Addam’s. They made a point of him learning that he was a bastard; after the Two Betrayers, he could protest Rhaenyra’s call to arrest Nettles and then lead the attack on Tumbleton to prove to himself (and his mother) that bastards aren’t traitors.

No

That causes a lot of narrative problems.

It'd be better for Laenor to come back from his vacation-exile and become a part of Rhaenyra's court as the first of her two royal husbands.

On 4/24/2023 at 5:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

The LOYAL! subplot is not going to make it into the show, at least not the epitaph thing, so that should be a non-issue.

Why not?

On 4/24/2023 at 8:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

The only reason why he wouldn't do this is if he was actually dead by then.

Not necessarily.

Laenor can get a subplot where he hears about the war and tries to make it back only to show up in time for the Battle of the Kingsroad or something.

On 4/24/2023 at 8:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

(also the fact that killing him in absentia would mean they killed the gay man there, after all, without depicting it)

Agreed

That would be much worse

 

[Lord Varys]

52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Why not?

Because Alyn only buries Addam on Driftmark in 138 AC or so. Also, the suggestion some other random guy declaring Addam was 'LOYAL!' means less or even nothing. It has to be his brother and the message has to be that he and House Velaryon remained true to the Black cause even after Corlys kind of turned Green.

52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Not necessarily.

Laenor can get a subplot where he hears about the war and tries to make it back only to show up in time for the Battle of the Kingsroad or something.

That they could do ... but it would be odder still, considering the Dance in the show is likely going to last longer than it does in the book. Else Joffrey Velaryon, Aegon III, and Viserys II will effectively still be toddlers when the war is over. And that cannot be what they want to do.

52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Agreed

That would be much worse

If they have Addam they would effectively have to kill Laenor in absentia ... as nobody should be able to mount Seasmoke while his former rider is still alive. And they should not break with that rule - in fact, it seems they don't want to do that as per season 1 as it seems clear that nobody can mount Vhagar while Aemond is riding her.

[BlackLightning]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because Alyn only buries Addam on Driftmark in 138 AC or so. Also, the suggestion some other random guy declaring Addam was 'LOYAL!' means less or even nothing. It has to be his brother and the message has to be that he and House Velaryon remained true to the Black cause even after Corlys kind of turned Green.

Oh

Well, they can just play with the timeline so that Addam gets buried on Driftmark in 131 or whenever the war actually ends.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That they could do...but it would be odder still, considering the Dance in the show is likely going to last longer than it does in the book. Else Joffrey Velaryon, Aegon III, and Viserys II will effectively still be toddlers when the war is over. And that cannot be what they want to do.

If they have Addam they would effectively have to kill Laenor in absentia ... as nobody should be able to mount Seasmoke while his former rider is still alive. And they should not break with that rule - in fact, it seems they don't want to do that as per season 1 as it seems clear that nobody can mount Vhagar while Aemond is riding her.

Or you know...they can just give Addam another dragon.

There are other dragons on Dragonstone that can be used for Addam's mount. Or they can just create a dragon for the TV show (let's call it Opaxos) and have that be Addam's dragon.

Seasmoke can continue to be riderless and thus await the return of Laenor (which in a way is almost inevitable) or can be a part of the "which dragon killed Grey Ghost" mystery that precedes the fall of Dragonstone.

As for Laenor and the fact that the Dance is going to take longer in the show than in the books? Well, you can turn Laenor and Qarl's sideshow into a Odyssey-like quest. Use the never-adapted Tyrion, Arya, Connington and Quentyn stories from A Dance with Dragons as inspiration. Or better yet, have them wrangle with the Lyseni in an attempt to set Viserys II free from slavery.

Edited April 28 by BlackLightning