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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think the show is going to depict Rhaenyra as a tyrant in any way, to be honest. I think they’re going to portray her fall from grace entirely as the product of the patriarchy working against her. That’s basically what the writers have been saying out loud since before the first episode premiered.

Really? They have been saying her downfall is entirely the fault of patriarchy and not her own at all? Do you have a source for that and the exact quotes?

That sure isn't supported by season 1 where, just in scenes  that don't exist in the book:

- young and bratty Rhaenyra says it doesn't matter how the snallfolk feel

- she also sees herself as an exception and tells Rhaenys "they rejected YOU"

- acts arroogant and dismissive of other noblewonen (who aren't heirs or drsgonriders) instead of trying to make friends and allies;

- acts dismissive, bored and mocking to her sutors, instead of trying to make allies,

- doesn't at all care that one of her suitors (a child) killed another;

- adult, more mature Rhaenyra still doesn't care about the lives of people who are not close to her, especially if they are smallfolk - conspiring in the murder of an innocent servant so she could send her husband away and marry her uncle:

- older, mature Rhaenyra definitely thinks she's am exception and has no intention of chamging succession rules or helping other women inherit (when she makes a deal to make Baela Jace's cknsort, she says Baela's SONS will be heirs to the throne)

- she is so invested in lying anout her sons' parentage that she even lies to her orn son in private.

The seeds are all there for her later mistakes and for her fkaws to become more glaring.

But Rhaenyra's problems are in large part due to patriarchy. Everyone's are, but hers are front and center since she's trying to become the first ruling queen of the Seven Kingdoms. There's no getting around that.

Were people against her because they didn't want a wiman on the throne? Some certainly were. Others thought that it was against tradition and rules  of succession..but why are the rules male preference primogeniture? Alicent was scared her sons would be killed as a threat to her rule, but would a man be threatened by the existence of younger siblings? Very unlikely. Some may have had a problem with the fact her heirs were illegitimate and she was commiting treason by passing them as legitimate.  But would a man be doing that? Would Aegon or Robert ask their wives to lie and pretend they gave birth to their bastards? No. Not judt because it would be more difficult to pull it off, but because they don't have to. Men can have bastards and openly acknowledge them without runing ther reputation ruined alongside any support for ascending the throne. Some might also have feared Daemon would rule instead of her, but if a prince and heir was married to a controversial aunt, would people be worried about the consort ruling? Probably not. Men are assuned to have power over their wives, and we see Daemon trying to overrule Rhaenyra in the finale.

And the reason she's depicted as the worst person  ever by historians is also largely due toi patriarchy. She turned out to be a bad ruler, but so did Aegon II, so was the incompetent Viserys, weak Aenys and of course the brutal tyrant Maegor, but are their examples used to argue mem should l not rule? No, but hers is used in Westeros to argue women shouldn't. The fallacy i of treating Rhaenyra,  one woman, as a representative of all women. And also not recognising that being a woman did wotk against her.

But Rhaenyra also upholds the patriarchy herself. We'll definitely see her overtaxing smallfolk and underestimating their power (it's  character for show Rhaenyra). We'll see her ruling against the Rosby snd Stockworth women (though she may be sad about it), and this backfiring later. We'll see her turn against Nettles and be hypocritical about bastards, including passing the tax on people having bastards (she may think it would help uphold the lie about her sons and opposing the proposal may look suspicious). Instead of "Rhaenyra was always bad", which would be a borimh tske, it will be about the corrupting influence of fighting for power, which means upholding a hierarchical system ÷and hopefilly they will make a point that one woman on the top doesn't necessarily mean things are better for women in general.

Edited by Annara Snow
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On 4/27/2023 at 6:59 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The character guide is pretty much confirmation that they’ve cut Maelor.  There’s no reason to add Daeron and not Maelor if they’re both set to appear in S2. Maelor’s death is somewhat similar to Joffrey’s, so I can understand why they decided to cut him. It just means that they’ll have to change B&C somewhat. 

The problem is, if they really want this show to center around the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent, then I don’t see how they can have B&C as it was written in the books. There’s no way that a woman who was bound and gagged while she watched her daughter tormented and grandson decapitated would ever see Rhaenyra as anything other than her absolute enemy. What’s Rhaenyra going to say, “It wasn’t me, it was all Daemon!”? 

What makes you think making their relationship central means downplaying the drama between them, rather than ratcheting it up as much as possible?

There’s no indication what, if anything, Rhaenyra knew about B&C in advance, or how she felt about it afterwards. We just know Daemon arranged it with Mysaria's help. Daemon writes "A son for a son" and Blood confesses under torture he was to bring the head to Daemon in Harrenhal.

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5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Re: Regency, Alyn has to marry Baela and to become Lord of the Tides after Corlys's death, otherwise why is he even on the show?

If the Regency material is not included then Corlys won't die in the show. However, George's version of the Baela-Alyn match was other nonsense and likely not the way the show will want to go about that. They made Baela Rhaenys' ward and Rhaenys' preferred heiress to Driftmark. So once Rhaenyra's elder sons are gone and Joffrey is Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne Baela will come to the fore as the next in line to Driftmark ... Hull boys or not.

Which means it would make sense to have the Baela-Alyn match as a romance that develops during the Dance and the marriage arrangement as part of the legitimization deal.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Alys is important during the Dance, but her story is extremely incomplete if she just disappears from the show after Aemond's death, or if we see her giving birth, that's a nice payoff but not as good as her becoming the Witch Queen of Harrenhal and defying the crow with a bunch of Broken Men loyal to her  They have to film the scene where Ser Regis dies (however they portray his death) after saying that "baseborn whelp of a kinslayer and a milk cow" line.

That is something that's clearly beyond the scope of a show about the Dance.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

And those things happen in the early years of the Regency, together with Alicent's deat, which has to be in the finale. Olivia is going to kill that. They could even bring back Emma to have Alicent have an imaginary conversation with Rhaenyra. 

Alicent's time of death can easily be changed. Or she might not die at all. They are not likely to cover the entire Winter Fever plot, so it is either no death for her ... or a changed scenario.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't think they need to go deep into the Regency, but I strongly disagree with people who think the show should finish withAegon III's ascension and Aegon and Jaehaera's wedding. It would be very incomplete. We need to see all these things, and the other widows ruling, and Nettles as the Fire Witch in the Vale, and the Widow Fairs, etc. The survibors' fattes and people recovering after the war.

We don't need all that. There is no narrative reason to have a Dance show deal with post-Dance stuff. The logical endpoint for this show is the wedding-coronation of King Aegon III and Queen Jaehaera.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

From the later years I think we just need to see Aegon and Vuserys reuniting, and at least a hint of dragons dying out, even if they need to do a couple of flashforwards.

We also don't need any of that. Viserys' return is something they should do ... but he could easily enough show up as a surprise guest to his brother's coronation.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

But if they were to tell the rest of Alys' story and how it ends, I'm all for getting it first in the show rather than Wikipedia-style in 2 of F&B. Although at least theoretically it cyn be out in 3-4 yeads when season 4  is remeased.

It is exceedingly unlikely that they do that. There will be open end for a lot of characters. And why not?

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23 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think the show is going to depict Rhaenyra as a tyrant in any way, to be honest. I think they’re going to portray her fall from grace entirely as the product of the patriarchy working against her. That’s basically what the writers have been saying out loud since before the first episode premiered.

That seems to be about right. I also don't see any chance that Rhaenyra will do the Addam-and-Nettles-thing in the show ... I mean, can we see the woman who had this measured and grown-up conversation with Luke in episode 10 going on a rant about 'bastards and their treasonous ways'.

If that happens, then the context will be changed. Say, there could be real hard evidence that a conspiracy is afoot and that evidence does blame Addam and/or Nettles. But the Nettles execution order feels like something show Rhaenyra would never possibly do. Even in the book this is a ridiculous thing. It gets a tidbit better by the fact that Mysaria manipulates Rhaenyra into doing this ... but the general setting makes no sense at all. How could Rhaenyra possibly believe that Daemon - if he was truly in love with Nettles - idly stand by while she is executed? How could she actually think he would meekly return to her afterwards and help her win her war? You cannot expect a general you just hurt very much expect to dutifully lead your armies. That wouldn't work.

In that sense, it strikes me as more likely that she does send some letter to Maidenpool ... and somebody else messes with the contents.

Also, we can expect her not being the craven her book counterpart is during the Storming of the Dragonpit. If she doesn't do anything there then, most likely, because she don't want to burn her own people/city.

Of course, also no Brothel Queens, no fatshaming, no gluttony, no weird jealousy about Daemon sleeping around (if he does it) since they are already pretty poly in season 1, and so on and so forth.

Rhaenyra's policies will also be more anti-patriarchal than the shit her book counterpart allows herself to be pushed into. Viserys' marriage deal with Corlys Velaryon already established Dornish style succession for the Iron Throne ... so we can expect that Rhaenyra will continue this kind of thing. And if there is a backlash against her reign it will be because of her 'feminist agenda' there, not because her capering to the patriarchy (as she does in the book) bites her in the ass.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be about right. I also don't see any chance that Rhaenyra will do the Addam-and-Nettles-thing in the show ... I mean, can we see the woman who had this measured and grown-up conversation with Luke in episode 10 going on a rant about 'bastards and their treasonous ways'.

If that happens, then the context will be changed. Say, there could be real hard evidence that a conspiracy is afoot and that evidence does blame Addam and/or Nettles. But the Nettles execution order feels like something show Rhaenyra would never possibly do. Even in the book this is a ridiculous thing. It gets a tidbit better by the fact that Mysaria manipulates Rhaenyra into doing this ... but the general setting makes no sense at all. How could Rhaenyra possibly believe that Daemon - if he was truly in love with Nettles - idly stand by while she is executed? How could she actually think he would meekly return to her afterwards and help her win her war? You cannot expect a general you just hurt very much expect to dutifully lead your armies. That wouldn't work.

In that sense, it strikes me as more likely that she does send some letter to Maidenpool ... and somebody else messes with the contents.

Also, we can expect her not being the craven her book counterpart is during the Storming of the Dragonpit. If she doesn't do anything there then, most likely, because she don't want to burn her own people/city.

Of course, also no Brothel Queens, no fatshaming, no gluttony, no weird jealousy about Daemon sleeping around (if he does it) since they are already pretty poly in season 1, and so on and so forth.

Rhaenyra's policies will also be more anti-patriarchal than the shit her book counterpart allows herself to be pushed into. Viserys' marriage deal with Corlys Velaryon already established Dornish style succession for the Iron Throne ... so we can expect that Rhaenyra will continue this kind of thing. And if there is a backlash against her reign it will be because of her 'feminist agenda' there, not because her capering to the patriarchy (as she does in the book) bites her in the ass.

Yeah, what was most striking to me was how Rhaenyra stealing the Velaryons’ entire fortune was framed as a victory, with Viserys triumphantly pulling himself back from the edge of death to help her. The only balance to this was Rhaenys skipping dinner to stand vigil for Vaemond and Rhaenyra then  toasting Alicent to try to make amends. But even this was immediately undone by all the men going behind Alicent’s back to usurp the throne and Rhaenys switching to Team Rhaenyra.

The worst thing I can say about HOTD is that whereas the books made me hate the greens, the show made me also hate the blacks.

To Emma D’Arcy’s credit, they don’t play Rhaenyra as a girlboss. As much as we all enjoy poking fun at girbosses, it was a huge draw for GOT and is something S2 will have working against it without Milly around anymore. But the alternative is that Rhaenyra is just kind of bland and confused now. She doesn’t really have a personality.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

The worst thing I can say about HOTD is that whereas the books made me hate the greens, the show made me also hate the blacks.

The books made me hate both the Blacks and the Greens. In the end I just felt sorry for the snallfolk and the dragons who died/went extinct because of those idiots.

The show has managed to make me care about many of the characters on both sides - quite an accomplishment. Not by making them act more nicely - they are still as bad in their actions - but by putting them into context and developing them into fleshed out characters with complexity that you can relate to, rather than the bare sketches or almost caricatures they are in the books.

 

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, what was most striking to me was how Rhaenyra stealing the Velaryons’ entire fortune was framed as a victory, with Viserys triumphantly pulling himself back from the edge of death to help her. The only balance to this was Rhaenys skipping dinner to stand vigil for Vaemond and Rhaenyra then  toasting Alicent to try to make amends. But even this was immediately undone by all the men going behind Alicent’s back to usurp the throne and Rhaenys switching to Team Rhaenyra.

Not sure how you get that framing there. The Driftmark thing is just a pretext there, what's at stake is the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra correctly fears that if the Iron Throne names Vaemond the heir to Driftmark on the basis that Rhaenyra's sons are not Laenor's her taking the Iron Throne might be a lot harder.

Book Corlys and Rhaenys are as much on Rhaenyra's side in this issue as they are in the show ... perhaps even more. Corlys' chosen heir is Luke in the show, so the entire thing simply is no theft. And Vaemond is consistently depicted as a pain in the ass.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The worst thing I can say about HOTD is that whereas the books made me hate the greens, the show made me also hate the blacks.

I actually like the show Greens pretty much ... while Rhaenyra is the only Black character that's interesting. Daemon sucks, Jace is unimpressive and kind of an asshole to Luke, Baela & Rhaena are more or less non-characters so far, and Corlys and Rhaenys are also not really interesting.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

To Emma D’Arcy’s credit, they don’t play Rhaenyra as a girlboss. As much as we all enjoy poking fun at girbosses, it was a huge draw for GOT and is something S2 will have working against it without Milly around anymore. But the alternative is that Rhaenyra is just kind of bland and confused now. She doesn’t really have a personality.

Oh, the Emma version certainly does have personality. She is played pretty complex. Mother, lover in complex relationships, ambition, and a sense of responsibility ... it is all there. There is fire beneath her reserved attitude, and we are likely to see that now.

The Milly version is basically that of a pampered and somewhat insecure girl who grows into her role. They could have written it better, but she is basically just a teenager exploring herself and the world.

The silly takes that her not caring about the smallfolk's opinion or her not giving a damn about duels, etc. tells us something about her character is ludicrous in a show where clearly none of the main characters (or the society as a whole) gives a damn about random violence. Things like random murders at tourneys, a KG murdering the best friend/lover of the future king consort, murders of estranged wives and servants to fake the deaths of noblemen, and lots of collateral deaths at the Dragonpit should be things the people care about ... but they do not.

So Rhaenyra not giving a damn about some of those things isn't a statement about her character. In fact, if you think about it ... that anyone (Alicent included) gives a damn about the Strong boys or Aemond's mutilation in the show is kind of odd. Why don't they shrug this thing away the way they don't give about Criston Cole murdering Joffrey? Why is an open marriage a bigger issue than blatant murder at tourneys or in front of the king on the Iron Throne? Why does Alicent give a fig about Aemond's eye?

Doesn't really make a lot of sense with the show as such effectively missing a moral framework.

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LMAO Did I expect the "it's silly to think not caring about the lives of smallfolk or lives of people not close to you in general is a character flaw, or matters in a show about the royal family tearing the realm apart in their fight for the throne" argument to actually be put forward? Not exactly, but I'm not the least bit surprised it's there, or who it's by. :rofl:

Nothing new, of course, just a slightly more eloquent rephrasing of the legendary Targ stan tweet from a few months ago that said it's silly to think GRRM wants us to care about the "unwashed peasants". :lmao:

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how you get that framing there. The Driftmark thing is just a pretext there, what's at stake is the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra correctly fears that if the Iron Throne names Vaemond the heir to Driftmark on the basis that Rhaenyra's sons are not Laenor's her taking the Iron Throne might be a lot harder.

Book Corlys and Rhaenys are as much on Rhaenyra's side in this issue as they are in the show ... perhaps even more. Corlys' chosen heir is Luke in the show, so the entire thing simply is no theft. And Vaemond is consistently depicted as a pain in the ass.

I actually like the show Greens pretty much ... while Rhaenyra is the only Black character that's interesting. Daemon sucks, Jace is unimpressive and kind of an asshole to Luke, Baela & Rhaena are more or less non-characters so far, and Corlys and Rhaenys are also not really interesting.

Oh, the Emma version certainly does have personality. She is played pretty complex. Mother, lover in complex relationships, ambition, and a sense of responsibility ... it is all there. There is fire beneath her reserved attitude, and we are likely to see that now.

The Milly version is basically that of a pampered and somewhat insecure girl who grows into her role. They could have written it better, but she is basically just a teenager exploring herself and the world.

The silly takes that her not caring about the smallfolk's opinion or her not giving a damn about duels, etc. tells us something about her character is ludicrous in a show where clearly none of the main characters (or the society as a whole) gives a damn about random violence. Things like random murders at tourneys, a KG murdering the best friend/lover of the future king consort, murders of estranged wives and servants to fake the deaths of noblemen, and lots of collateral deaths at the Dragonpit should be things the people care about ... but they do not.

So Rhaenyra not giving a damn about some of those things isn't a statement about her character. In fact, if you think about it ... that anyone (Alicent included) gives a damn about the Strong boys or Aemond's mutilation in the show is kind of odd. Why don't they shrug this thing away the way they don't give about Criston Cole murdering Joffrey? Why is an open marriage a bigger issue than blatant murder at tourneys or in front of the king on the Iron Throne? Why does Alicent give a fig about Aemond's eye?

Doesn't really make a lot of sense with the show as such effectively missing a moral framework.

Maybe it is a pretext, but it’s still an example of other people getting screwed over because of Rhaenyra’s selfishness. Hell, she still could have had a lover and bastards—just one that looked Valyrian. 

The other things you mentioned are examples of faults in the show. I think most people agree that Criston  shouldn’t have been able to just randomly murder someone at a royal wedding and not suffer any consequences.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe it is a pretext, but it’s still an example of other people getting screwed over because of Rhaenyra’s selfishness. Hell, she still could have had a lover and bastards—just one that looked Valyrian.

Really not sure what the selfishness is there. She and Laenor are presented as a modern and enlightened couple who enter into an arranged marriage with the intention to give each other space so they can be happy. That is the opposite of selfishness.

The selfish guy there is Vaemond Velaryon who lays claim to a lordship that's not his own (but Baela's and Rhaena's if all of Laenor's sons were passed over) and who messes in an arrangement he simply has no right to mess with. He is the same kind of asshole Alicent is - for even more selfish reasons. Show Alicent at least is not just motivated by ambition but also by a feeling of betrayal (and, of course, repressed jealousy that Rhaenyra is granted sexual freedom and romantic fulfillment while she is stuck with rotting Viserys).

The show fails to depict the Harwin thing properly ... but what we learn about the whole thing is that Rhaenyra did not want Laenor's sons to be Harwin's. It happened because Laenor's seed never took hold.

I don't think outsiders are entitled to judge the looks of royal children. And if you look at history they never were.

And while Rhaenyra clearly wants the throne ... she leaves the decision to her father. It seems clear in episode 8 that she would accept a change in the succession if it came from Viserys. And, of course, it isn't her wish that Vaemond basically kills himself in front of the throne.

In the show, the Vaemond incident isn't so much about Driftmark. Corlys made it clear who his heir was earlier, unlike in the book where this seems to have been unclear prior to Corlys' illness. In the show the Driftmark thing is a Green powerplay to undermine Rhaenyra's sons and effectively oust her as Heir Apparent. I mean, it is pretty clear that the step 2 after Vaemond being installed as heir to Driftmark would have been to use the arguments that led to that decision to revisit the royal succession and declare Rhaenyra an adulteress and thus oust her as heir to the Iron Throne.

44 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

LMAO Did I expect the "it's silly to think not caring about the lives of smallfolk or lives of people not close to you in general is a character flaw, or matters in a show about the royal family tearing the realm apart in their fight for the throne" argument to actually be put forward? Not exactly, but I'm not the least bit surprised it's there, or who it's by. :rofl:

Nothing new, of course, just a slightly more eloquent rephrasing of the legendary Targ stan tweet from a few months ago that said it's silly to think GRRM wants us to care about the "unwashed peasants". :lmao:

LOL, you are aware that a pampered princess is actually quite right that in a monarchy the commoners have no fucking say in the succession, right? That you shouldn't ignore public opinion is something Rhaenyra actually knows and understands - as her reaction to Aegon's public coronation at the Dragonpit shows.

And George clearly doesn't give a damn about unwashed peasants. If he did, they would actually wash and not live like animals (as they do in TSS), they would have agency of their own, they would be crucial characters in this book series ... but they aren't. This is a book series about royalty and nobility, not common people.

How little George cares about or respects the masses you can see in FaB with how he depicts the Kingslanders - starting with Dick Bean the moron who volunteered to die for a monstrous tyrant, the depiction of the murderers of Rego Draz, and - my favorite - the Kingslanders who first collectively slay five dragons and then suck up to Rhaena and her Morning. This is not necessarily unrealistic, but it shows the author doesn't want the people to be consistent. To him, 'the smallfolk' really are the sheep Jorah Mormont wants them to be in AGoT.

The notion, though, that this show gives shit about commoners is also ridiculous. They actually told us that we shouldn't give a damn about the people Meleys kills at the Dragonpit.

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I can't wait for the "unwashed" Kingslanders to show how much say they don't have when they end up killing the dragons, causing the death of Rhaenyra's son and driving Rhaenyra out of the city. -_-

Poor Targ stans. You are blissfully unaware that Ryan Condal's favorite book is A Feast for Crows, the one you probably never read or skimmed over because it was "boring" with the Brienne chapters, just like all the Arya chapters in ACOK and ASOS most likely, all that stuff and "unwashed peasants" and the consequences of war. Who cares about that when it should be all about royals lording their absolute power and doing incest for blood purity all over the place, which you all think GRRM wrote the series to celebrate. Absolutely hilarious. 

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7 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I can't wait for the "unwashed" Kingslanders to show how much say they don't have when they end up killing the dragons, causing the death of Rhaenyra's son and driving Rhaenyra out of the city. -_-

And then they will suck up like the sheep they are to Rhaenyra's eldest surviving son, his half-sisters, and eventually his younger brother.

7 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Poor Targ stans. You are blissfully unaware that Ryan Condal's favorite book is A Feast for Crows, the one you probably never read or skimmed over because it was "boring" with the Brienne chapters, just like all the Arya chapters in ACOK and ASOS most likely, all that stuff and "unwashed peasants" and the consequences of war. Who cares about that when it should be all about royals lording their absolute power and doing incest for blood purity all over the place, which you all think GRRM wrote the series to celebrate. Absolutely hilarious. 

LOL, AFfC is my favorite book, too, since it contains George's best prose. But those books don't take the point of view of the commoners. Showing how people suffer from the point of view of noble pricks isn't given us there perspective, isn't given them agency. The Brotherhood without Banners are monarchists to the bone, which their ridiculous focus on dead King Robert shows. Rather than thinking for themselves, coming up with their own ideas they worship a dead drunkard. And the sparrows are fanatics who can only express themselves and their grievances through religious language.

The books actually gleefully reintroduce class boundaries to isolate Arya from her baseborn friends - once Gendry and Hot Pie know she is Arya Stark of Winterfell they treat her decidedly differently ... and it is also what causes both of them to cut their ties with her again, leading to her eventual journey to Braavos.

This book series is exclusively about highborn and royal people. They are the focus, their lives and wants and desires are not only what drives the story ... they are the story. And it is silly of you to draw lines between 'the incest gang' (nobody but fucking Cersei and fucking Jaime who are fucking POVs actually does incest on screen in the books) and the other aristocratic pricks. They are all the same class, all fight each other for crowns and lordships ... all don't give a damn about the lives of the peasants. And neither do most of the readership who mainly speculate about noble family trees and where the hell this or that noble prick is going to end up when the series is over. We all know that this is basically a soap about aristrocracy, not a series about normal people.

That Dany and Jon and Aegon might be descended from incestuous people is not exactly the most crucial part of the story. But, of course, the author does celebrate incest by having two POVs in those books whose incestuous relationship is the most important thing in their lives ... and the forbidden romance that drives nearly the entire plot. I mean, you are aware that nothing forced George to have incest in this series at all, right? The Targaryens didn't have to be an incestuous dynasty nor did Jaime and Cersei have to be an incestuous couple. Cersei could have had a secret lover that wasn't her twin brother, right?

Just sit back, relax a bit, and stop treating those people as if they were real. They are fictional, and it makes no sense for you to hate them or what they do to the degree you seem to do.

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My biggest fear is that they’re going to portray the Storming of the Dragonpit as a “barbarians at the gates” scenario where the ignorant peasants kill the majestic dragons because they’re prejudiced against Poor Queen Rhaenyra. I don’t believe that GRRM is as involved in this show as they’re trying to convince us he is, but I hope he’s involved enough to steer them away from that.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My biggest fear is that they’re going to portray the Storming of the Dragonpit as a “barbarians at the gates” scenario where the ignorant peasants kill the majestic dragons because they’re prejudiced against Poor Queen Rhaenyra. I don’t believe that GRRM is as involved in this show as they’re trying to convince us he is, but I hope he’s involved enough to steer them away from that.

Honestly, I expect them to play up the anti-Rhaenyra conspiracy angle there. In the book we can view the Shepherd as an independent agent, but Perkin the Flea and Trystane Truefyre are Larys Strong's pawns. Pretty sure they will make a proper story out of that.

If they are smart enough they will also slowly play up the 'dragons are dangerous' angle they kind of have in the show with poor Stepstones guy praising Daemon only to be trampled by Caraxes and, of course, apparently unintentionally with Rhaenys' stunt at the Dragonpit. The writers must have seen how the audience reacted to that silly scene ... so they could include scenes in season 2 which has the Kingslanders being pissed about the inability of their new 'king' to protect them from stunts like that. Which, in turn, could start the growing fear in the capital that an ever more escalating succession war might inevitably lead to a dragon attack on the city.

Unless they change the dragons which are in the Dragonpit when it is stormed it would be hard to frame it as a general anti-Rhaenyra uprising, though. Three of the five dragons they kill are Green dragons, after all. And in the context of the people fearing an attack by Green dragonriders it is completely irrational to attack the dragons kept in the city which could be used to defend the city against the Green dragonriders should they ever come.

So the way to do it would be either as genuine panic or anti-Rhaenyra propaganda being spread by Larys and other Green agents or Green-leaning people which spins out of control.

That the dragons are not exactly majestic in the show is already pretty clear. Some fans fan about them ... but the show does not.

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17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My biggest fear is that they’re going to portray the Storming of the Dragonpit as a “barbarians at the gates” scenario where the ignorant peasants kill the majestic dragons because they’re prejudiced against Poor Queen Rhaenyra. I don’t believe that GRRM is as involved in this show as they’re trying to convince us he is, but I hope he’s involved enough to steer them away from that.

I don't think that they’ve included Mysaria's line that the royals and nobles only have power because people allow them to, for no reason. The fandom was too busy ranting that Mysaria is being portrayed too nicely, to note that this was assering one of the pverarching themes of the show.

Or that scene at the start of 1x03 when an unnamed soldier getting tortured by the  Crabfeeder happily greets "my Prince" Daemon as savior, only for Caraxes to stomp on him and kill him, because obviously neither the Prince nor the dragon noticed or cares about him. The show really wasn't subtle with that scene.

And of course Viserys wondering whether anyone was meant to have the power of dragons, and Rhaenyra's line "They say Targaryens are closer to gods than to men...but without dragons, we are just like anyone else."

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17 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Probably serious.

If he wanted us to care about them as people he would actually give us peasant POVs. We see normal people through the eyes of the noble elite or through the eyes of people who are part of aristocratic system (Davos, Areo). We see through noble eyes how the ambitions and wars of the nobility make the people of the land suffer. Arya's and Brienne's Riverlands chapters are basically lessons for the nobility what they should not do. They teach Arya what she is not to do should she ever be in charge.

But they are not giving agency to the common people. Like at all.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If he wanted us to care about them as people he would actually give us peasant POVs. We see normal people through the eyes of the noble elite or through the eyes of people who are part of aristocratic system (Davos, Areo). We see through noble eyes how the ambitions and wars of the nobility make the people of the land suffer. Arya's and Brienne's Riverlands chapters are basically lessons for the nobility what they should not do. They teach Arya what she is not to do should she ever be in charge.

But they are not giving agency to the common people. Like at all.

I was referring to the tweet.

And for the record I find the passivity of the smallfolk unrealistic as well as disappointing.

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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