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The idea that decades of factionalism and a devastating civil war which was not actually properly ended to the satisfaction of the victorious side just disappears and the king on the throne also conveniently forgets about this just isn't realistic in this setting.

Robert's Rebellion left festering wounds even 15 years later, the Blackfyres launched five rebellions to get even with the Targaryen, the War of the Five Kings caused even more injuries people are avenging right now, etc.

But we are to believe that nobody gave a damn about the Dance from 131 AC onwards? That's simply not believable.

The biggest issue, though, is the notion that Rhaenyra's descendants would not honor her memory and not count her as Queen Regnant. That's like expecting Ned's descendants remember Eddard Stark of Winterfell as the disgusting traitor King Joffrey Baratheon rightfully executed ... and their brother/uncle King Robb Stark as a false king, pretender, and traitor who was rightfully put down at the Red Wedding.

This is just inconceivable.

Stopping blood feuds like Ellaria Sand demands in ADwD is one thing ... shitting on your own house, parents, ancestors is another thing entirely.

But it very much seems as if the Dance is not completely done yet. There will be false Daerons and the son of Aemond is still alive, too. Aegon III will have to deal with them one way or another, and that's likely going to involve fighting ... which, in turn, will open old wounds and perhaps trigger other rebellions.

I'd not be surprised if effectively the entire reign of Aegon III will turn out to very troubled with a lot of (former) Greens trying to get rid of Rhaenyra's spawn. Then Daeron I's plan to conquer Dorne could not so much being some mad scheme of an overly ambitious young boy ... but rather a calculated ploy by Prince Viserys to give the lords and people another common enemy to unite the Realm. Have the people fight and die in Dorne rather than trying to wrest Aegon III and his descendants from the throne and replace them with bastards and fakes.

Then the Targaryen rule could only be fully secure and the Dance finally be put behind them during the Daeron's victory celebration after he forced Dorne into submission.

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Gee, I wonder why the Blacks did not act like a "victorious side", such a mystery!

Almost like...they were not, since there was no victorious side (except in headcanons of certain fans), and the war limped to an end by a negotiated peace and compromise because no one (except Cregan Stark and Lyonel Hightower, maybe) wanted to go on.

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50 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Gee, I wonder why the Blacks did not act like a "victorious side", such a mystery!

Almost like...they were not, since there was no victorious side (except in headcanons of certain fans), and the war limped to an end by a negotiated peace and compromise because no one (except Cregan Stark and Lyonel Hightower, maybe) wanted to go on.

Aegon III became the ruling monarch, not Jaehaera, so the Blacks won. Period. This was a succession war, after all.

If the current war ended with King Tommen marrying Princess Shireen then Tommen would have won, too, as he would continue to rule while Stannis' only heir was reduced to the role of a powerless consort. That war, too, is about who(se line) sits the throne. And whoever does sit there in the end has won ... even if the losing side were to agree to peace terms and marriages. They would still be losers, like the Greens are.

It is a joke to frame this as anything but a Black victory when King Aegon II's blatant murder marks the end of the war. The Dance ends with the murder of the king who also happens to be the last male Targaryen of the Green faction. What is Aegon II's murder but the last and final defeat of the Greens? And a great victory for the Blacks, especially Aegon III who is free of his monstrous uncle and proclaimed king thereafter! It is even more emphasized by the murder of Aegon II being triggered by the destruction of the last Green army in the field. Aegon II's murder could have been some Black conspiracy with a peace agreement being made afterwards because there were still Green armies in the field threatening to depose Aegon III again.

But as it stands, the Greens are done and the Blacks give the women who wouldn't/couldn't lead armies, anyway, some nice terms to sugar-coat their power grab. If the Greens still had had power at court Rhaenyra's son wouldn't have been crowned. Then it would have been Queen Jaehaera with Aegon the Younger as her prince consort.

Aegon III could have been a compromise candidate the Greens were fine with ... if he had been the last Targaryen alive and they had either the option of crowning another Targaryen king or allow some dude with no blood claim at all to try to ascend the throne. But that's clearly not the setting. Aegon II is murdered, a new king is crowned, and the Greens just give up because they lost.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon III became the ruling monarch, not Jaehaera, so the Blacks won. Period. This was a succession war, after all.

If the current war ended with King Tommen marrying Princess Shireen then Tommen would have won, too, as he would continue to rule while Stannis' only heir was reduced to the role of a powerless consort. That war, too, is about who(se line) sits the throne. And whoever does sit there in the end has won ... even if the losing side were to agree to peace terms and marriages. They would still be losers, like the Greens are.

It is a joke to frame this as anything but a Black victory when King Aegon II's blatant murder marks the end of the war. The Dance ends with the murder of the king who also happens to be the last male Targaryen of the Green faction. What is Aegon II's murder but the last and final defeat of the Greens? And a great victory for the Blacks, especially Aegon III who is free of his monstrous uncle and proclaimed king thereafter! It is even more emphasized by the murder of Aegon II being triggered by the destruction of the last Green army in the field. Aegon II's murder could have been some Black conspiracy with a peace agreement being made afterwards because there were still Green armies in the field threatening to depose Aegon III again.

But as it stands, the Greens are done and the Blacks give the women who wouldn't/couldn't lead armies, anyway, some nice terms to sugar-coat their power grab. If the Greens still had had power at court Rhaenyra's son wouldn't have been crowned. Then it would have been Queen Jaehaera with Aegon the Younger as her prince consort.

Aegon III could have been a compromise candidate the Greens were fine with ... if he had been the last Targaryen alive and they had either the option of crowning another Targaryen king or allow some dude with no blood claim at all to try to ascend the throne. But that's clearly not the setting. Aegon II is murdered, a new king is crowned, and the Greens just give up because they lost.

I think the reason why it’s considered a Green victory is because Aegon II is credited as the official king and not Rhaenyra (otherwise Aegon the Dragonbane would be remembered as Aegon the Second, not Aegon the Third). And unfortunately, the precedent was reinforced to bar women from the Iron Throne. Not just Daena, but Daenora too, would should have come before Maekar (I’m guessing that’s why she was wed to Aerion, to combine their claims). 

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the reason why it’s considered a Green victory is because Aegon II is credited as the official king and not Rhaenyra (otherwise Aegon the Dragonbane would be remembered as Aegon the Second, not Aegon the Third). And unfortunately, the precedent was reinforced to bar women from the Iron Throne. Not just Daena, but Daenora too, would should have come before Maekar (I’m guessing that’s why she was wed to Aerion, to combine their claims). 

One part of the war was about whether women should rule, of course, but once it started it was a dynastic succession struggle, not one about a specific succession law but a fight between two competing branches of the house. And Rhaenyra's branch just won.

Aegon II being counted as king isn't a victory. He is just like Maegor, a usurper who couldn't establish his own (branch of the) dynasty and was eventually overthrown and replaced by a scion of the branch he tried to supplant.

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Aegon III became the ruling King because he was male. Duh. But they still felt the need to unite the claims to make peace.

And he was considered heir to Aegon II, not Rhaenyra, who was treated as a pretender by history. 

Very odd argument to make in favor of the Blacks "victory" considering it all started as Rhaenyra fighting to be the first ruling queen.

Even funnier when Aegon's first Hand is Tyland Lannister, one of the people responsible for Aegon II's usurpation. In anything resembling a Black victory, this man would be executed, sent to the Night's Watch, or even if they felt generous, removed from all power, but no, he is the Hand! 

Then there's the council of regents with just two proper Black supporters, 2 erstwhile Blacks who switched sides when Rhaenyra alienated them (1 of them arguably switched again), and 2 Greens who also happened to be the fathers of the two most important Green ruling widows that had to be placated for the peace to happen.

Then later, goddamn Unwin Peake as Hand. What a funny "Black victory" where the most powerful individual position keeps going to the men they would've executed if they had actually won! 

Edited by Annara Snow
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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One part of the war was about whether women should rule, of course, but once it started it was a dynastic succession struggle, not one about a specific succession law but a fight between two competing branches of the house. And Rhaenyra's branch just won.

Aegon II being counted as king isn't a victory. He is just like Maegor, a usurper who couldn't establish his own (branch of the) dynasty and was eventually overthrown and replaced by a scion of the branch he tried to supplant.

That's because Aegon II didn't win.

You know who else didn't win? Rhaenyra.

Being considered a pretender (or even a usurper by some, see Stannis) in spite of actually getting a coronation ceremony of her own and sitting the Iron Throne, getting a bad reputation and being remembered by the nickname "Maegor with teats" and even being used posthumously (even by supporters of your own son, when he was taking the throne instead of his niece) as the supposed reason why women shouldn't become rulers...Sorry, doesn't seem like a victory.

Edited by Annara Snow
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6 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

That's because Aegon II didn't win.

You know who else didn't win? Rhaenyra.

Being considered a pretender (or even a usurper by some, see Stannis) in spite of actually getting a coronation ceremony of her own and sitting the Iron Throne, getting a bad reputation and being remembered by the nickname "Maegor with teats" and even being used posthumously (even by supporters of your own son, when he was taking the throne instead of his niece) as the supposed reason why women shouldn't become rulers...Sorry, doesn't seem like a victory.

My point here wasn't that Rhaenyra won - but that her side/faction, son(s) and stepdaughters did win the war. That is simply expressed by the fact that Aegon III became king in the manner he did (over the dead body of Aegon II!) and that Jaehaera was handed on a silver platter to him.

The entire notion the Greens were not done makes little sense. Else Lady Elenda wouldn't have handed Jaehaera to Aegon III, would have refused to consider a marriage between them since that would have been the last her father would have wanted for her - especially after he was murdered by the people who now crowned Aegon III - not to mention that Jaehaera herself would have never wanted to marry the son of the man who was ultimately behind the murder of her twin brother.

Desire for peace or not - the Greens were the losing faction agreeing to terms dictated by the victorious faction - the faction who made the new king.

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On 5/10/2023 at 5:06 PM, Annara Snow said:

Almost like...they were not, since there was no victorious side (except in headcanons of certain fans), and the war limped to an end by a negotiated peace and compromise because no one (except Cregan Stark and Lyonel Hightower, maybe) wanted to go on

Huh

What's the difference between The Blacks' totally non victory and Robert's victory.

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5 hours ago, frenin said:

Huh

What's the difference between The Blacks' totally non victory and Robert's victory.

It's the difference between a non-victory and an actiual victory, so it would take a long time to list everything since it's, well, everything

 

ETA: but now you mention it, that would be a fun  idea for an AU Robert's Rebellion that ends with a negotiated peace, Jaime and Tywin are executed or sent to the Wall, Daenerys marries Joffrey while Myrcella marries Viserys, while Jon Connington becomes the Hand of the King. 

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My point here wasn't that Rhaenyra won - but that her side/faction, son(s) and stepdaughters did win the war. That is simply expressed by the fact that Aegon III became king in the manner he did (over the dead body of Aegon II!) and that Jaehaera was handed on a silver platter to him.

The entire notion the Greens were not done makes little sense. Else Lady Elenda wouldn't have handed Jaehaera to Aegon III, would have refused to consider a marriage between them since that would have been the last her father would have wanted for her - especially after he was murdered by the people who now crowned Aegon III - not to mention that Jaehaera herself would have never wanted to marry the son of the man who was ultimately behind the murder of her twin brother.

Desire for peace or not - the Greens were the losing faction agreeing to terms dictated by the victorious faction - the faction who made the new king.

The terms that meant the only remaining male claimant anyone knew about would become king and the female claimant would marry him, the Greens don't get to lose any power or be punished (aside from those that were being punished for specific crimes predominantly for the murder of Aegon II) and in fact get to have just as much positions of power as the former Black supporters in the new Regency, with the regents being from both side, Lord Protector a Black but the Hand of the King one of the main Green supporters (who even participated in the original coup)?

Funny "victory" that one! They must have felt super generous after "winning a war"??

Or, logically, the war was not over and they were trying to make peace and compromising with the Greens. Compromising a lot. I don't know any 'winning side' in history that gave the leaders of the 'losing side' the most powerful position in the country.

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12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It's the difference between a non-victory and an actiual victory, so it would take a long time to list everything since it's, well, everything

You're not really saying much are you now?

The rebels were in an ever direr position and it was a victory.

The Blacks had knocked out the Greens and forcefully placed their pretender on the throne... Yet it is a defeat/tie? However you want to call it.

And an anyway, the wars ends up the same way. With a general pardon to those who oppose the new regime.

The only difference is that Corlys felt the need to truly bind the Realm together whereas the rebels didn't but by the time Corlys gets to that point, every Green had already surrendered before even knowing Corlys would gift them the government for their efforts.

By the time Robellion ends the rebels are without a navy, the Dornish and Reachmen still have armies large enough to match, if not surpass, the rebels, yet...

 

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Or, logically, the war was not over and they were trying to make peace and compromising with the Greens. Compromising a lot. I don't know any 'winning side' in history that gave the leaders of the 'losing side' the most powerful position in the country.

The war was truly over when that compromise was reached, it's literally stated that the only remaining Green threat was Lyonel Hightower who had his hands tied.

The compromise is born entirely out of Corlys' belief that the only way to knit the Realm together again is by sharing power, it's a completely unique setting that no other political leader before or after does again even in less decisive outcomes, victory seems a bit polemic, in each civil war.

It wasn't even a given since we are told Cregan could have easily remained Hand and claimed the regency for himself, undoing Corlys' dreamed peace before it could take shape.

There's also the Doylist argument that Martin likely wrote the outcome of the Dance (Aegon being the sibling remembered as King, Rhaenyra being vilified etc...) and couldn't really write that back so there's that weird inconsistency.

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On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Aegon III became the ruling King because he was male. Duh. But they still felt the need to unite the claims to make peace.

LOL, no, he became king because his side won the war and killed Aegon II. And had he been female and exactly in the same position Corlys and Larys would have crowned Queen Aegona I to spare themselves the wrath of the Lads and Cregan Stark. They wouldn't have turned to a pretender at Storm's End they couldn't even lay their hands on - a pretender whose proclamation would only further enrage the victorious armies descending on King's Landing.

On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

And he was considered heir to Aegon II, not Rhaenyra, who was treated as a pretender by history. 

Aegon III was obviously first and foremost THE HEIR OF HIS MOTHER because the only reason he yet lived and still had a claim is because HIS MOTHER'S LOYALISTS continued the war after her death.

That he was also named heir of Aegon II is testament only of the strength of the Black cause at the court of Aegon II. Aegon III had still so many supporters that the way to placate them was to suggest to betroth him to Jaehaera and name them joint heirs. This wasn't done because the Greens thought the only Targaryen male left alive should be the heir of King Aegon II. That would have been silly and ludicrous.

On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Very odd argument to make in favor of the Blacks "victory" considering it all started as Rhaenyra fighting to be the first ruling queen.

LOL, you don't get it that this was a dynastic struggle first and foremost, not a struggle for a particular law of succession.

It is like saying Maegor fought for the right of the second son to be king once the first son dies, or Robert for the right of cousin inheritance.

Rhaenyra fought for herself as much as for her sons ... and her cause triumphed in the end because he bloodline ended up being in charge whilst the Green Targaryens died out.

On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Even funnier when Aegon's first Hand is Tyland Lannister, one of the people responsible for Aegon II's usurpation. In anything resembling a Black victory, this man would be executed, sent to the Night's Watch, or even if they felt generous, removed from all power, but no, he is the Hand! 

LOL, no. You pretend to know the book. Tyland wasn't even there when Aegon II was murdered and replaced by Aegon III. Had he and Marston Waters been there, they would have likely been killed, too, because they were too loyal to Aegon II. Tyland was chosen as Hand because he was deemed weak because of the mutilations he suffered. That was not the case as it turned out, but he was not chosen because he was in a position of strength.

And in sense you can interpret his apparent loyalty to Aegon III - the prince he wanted to murder earlier! - as a way to suck up to the king, i.e. as weakness because he may have feared correctly that were he to antagonize the boy further the boy might turn on him and have his head the very day he took the government into his own hands.

The setup of the Regency government has literally nothing to do with the fact that the Blacks won. They included men from the losing side into the government they built - because the moron Corlys Velaryon thought this was necessary. That's also why they went through with the Jaehaera match. It prevented the Greens from making her a pretender in her own right. But, of course, it was the ultimate betryal of Elenda Baratheon to hand Jaehaera to Aegon III and his government.

Compare it to Jaehaerys' victory over Maegor. He, too, ended up included former Maegor loyalists into his government - but he didn't have to do this. He and his mother decided to take that road. They didn't have to.

Aegon III only got a regency council made up of Blacks and Greens because Cregan Stark gave up his power.

On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Then there's the council of regents with just two proper Black supporters, 2 erstwhile Blacks who switched sides when Rhaenyra alienated them (1 of them arguably switched again), and 2 Greens who also happened to be the fathers of the two most important Green ruling widows that had to be placated for the peace to happen.

You pull the idea out of your ass that the widows had been placated there. They agreed to terms long before a regency government was set up. That took place months later after the wedding of Aegon III and Jaehaera.

You don't seem to understand that people in power are free to give up that power. Which is what they did.

On 5/11/2023 at 9:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Then later, goddamn Unwin Peake as Hand. What a funny "Black victory" where the most powerful individual position keeps going to the men they would've executed if they had actually won! 

Peake's rise has literally nothing to do with the power dynamics at the end of the war. He wasn't even part of the regency council originally - and could only enter into it and amass power because others on the council and crucial royal officials died like flies during the Winter Fever.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

The terms that meant the only remaining male claimant anyone knew about would become king and the female claimant would marry him, the Greens don't get to lose any power or be punished (aside from those that were being punished for specific crimes predominantly for the murder of Aegon II) and in fact get to have just as much positions of power as the former Black supporters in the new Regency, with the regents being from both side, Lord Protector a Black but the Hand of the King one of the main Green supporters (who even participated in the original coup)?

Again, you are pulling stuff out of your ass. The proclamation of King Aegon III was not negotiable. He is proclaimed king and treated as such from the moment of Aegon II's murder after which Larys, Corlys, and Aegon III welcome the Lads in the city. The new king is already made, and whatever terms were offered to the defeated Greens didn't involve him being unmade.

Jaehaera's inclusion was also not yet settled when Aegon III was proclaimed king. As Cregan points out, Lady Elenda has Jaehaera, she could crown her queen. She could have also decided to keep her price and betroth Jaehaera Targaryen to her newborn son Royce. There was no automatism there. For some reason Corlys of all people wanted that match and he eventually got it. But it has literally nothing to do with Aegon III becoming king. Nor was it anything any Greens insisted on as condition to lay down arms. Effectively all of them didn't want to continue the war, not even Lyonel Hightower.

Aegon II lost his war because his allies abandoned him even before his murder.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Funny "victory" that one! They must have felt super generous after "winning a war"??

It was overwhelmingly generous indeed. They didn't have to do any of that. It was an attempt to heal the wounds and unite the Realm again ... but never a condition for peace.

It is like saying the Germans or Iraqis being allowed to rule themselves after they were crushed in war means they somehow 'didn't lose'. They lost, but the victors then decided that they would allow the defeated to choose their own (civil) government. The victorious Blacks also decided to include some Greens in the government they created.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

There's also the Doylist argument that Martin likely wrote the outcome of the Dance (Aegon being the sibling remembered as King, Rhaenyra being vilified etc...) and couldn't really write that back so there's that weird inconsistency.

It is not only that, but he could also have done it better. By not deciding to make Rhaenyra the anointed heir of her father. By not going with Aegon the Younger actually being Aegon II's hostage. By allowing Aegon II the grace of a natural death (his many injuries could have easily enough triggered some sort of complication which, in turn, would then cause an early natural death). If Aegon II had died suddenly and unexpectedly before one faction could win a decisive victor in the field ... then Aegon III's coronation could have indeed been some kind of compromise offered to the Blacks to make a peace. Aegon III would have been the last male Targaryen alive - something the Greens could live with - while also happening to be Rhaenyra's sole surviving son and heir.

But that's not the setting we get. We get a setting where Aegon II is blatantly and openly murdered to crown the son of Rhaenyra after the last Green army has been crushed in the field and the Green side has no viable pretender left anyone would fight for.

This setting - as well as the comparable strength of Rhaenyra's cause throughout the war and before - makes the outcome that she is not remembered as a martyr by her descendants is quite odd and not fitting with things.

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The Greens won become Aegon outlived Rhaenyra, who was forced to flee King’s Landing. Little Aegon’s claim is through Daemon, not Rhaenyra. Since Aegon’s brothers were dead, and neither with legitimate children, it bounced back to Daemon (dead) and then his son (alive).

When James II and his son fled England, he ceased being king. His daughter is remembered as the legitimate queen from that point forward.

In a bit of irony, Daenerys ruled that one Meereenese noblewoman forfeited her home by temporarily abandoning it. By that same logic, she lost her claim by leaving Westeros. And just like Rhaenyra, they sold their mother’s crown in the process.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Greens won become Aegon outlived Rhaenyra, who was forced to flee King’s Landing. Little Aegon’s claim is through Daemon, not Rhaenyra. Since Aegon’s brothers were dead, and neither with legitimate children, it bounced back to Daemon (dead) and then his son (alive).

I'm sorry i'll never understand this train of thought, Daemon is not once mentioned when discussing Aegon's claim.

Either it comes from his mother or it comes because his uncle named him heir, Daemon is completely irrelevant in this scenario. 

But the  solely reason why lil Aegon is crowned is because the lads defeated Aegon's last army while  flying Rhaenyra's banner and Cregan and Jeyne Arryn were coming behind without a way to oppose, they made their own King.

Whether people believe that ultimately this is a Green victory because Aegon was remembered as King and Rhaenyra badly lost the PR war (never raise taxes mates), or the Blacks won because Alicent's line completely died put whereas Rhaenyra's still rule the country 200 years later (we'll count Joffrey and Tommen here for practical purposes) , well that's up to each tastes.

But one needs to bend themseves backwards to try and argue that after the Muddy mess it was anything but a complete Black(militarily) victory, if a phyrric one anyway.

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Rumor that Lydia Wilson has been cast as Jeyne Arryn.

Based on that other actors plus an assistant director are following her on Instagram.

Combined with 1 - she’s the right age and appearance, 2 - an actor of her prominence probably isn’t playing a background character

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Wilson

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, he became king because his side won the war and killed Aegon II. And had he been female and exactly in the same position Corlys and Larys would have crowned Queen Aegona I to spare themselves the wrath of the Lads and Cregan Stark. They wouldn't have turned to a pretender at Storm's End they couldn't even lay their hands on - a pretender whose proclamation would only further enrage the victorious armies descending on King's Landing.

Aegon III was obviously first and foremost THE HEIR OF HIS MOTHER because the only reason he yet lived and still had a claim is because HIS MOTHER'S LOYALISTS continued the war after her death.

That he was also named heir of Aegon II is testament only of the strength of the Black cause at the court of Aegon II. Aegon III had still so many supporters that the way to placate them was to suggest to betroth him to Jaehaera and name them joint heirs. This wasn't done because the Greens thought the only Targaryen male left alive should be the heir of King Aegon II. That would have been silly and ludicrous.

LOL, you don't get it that this was a dynastic struggle first and foremost, not a struggle for a particular law of succession.

It is like saying Maegor fought for the right of the second son to be king once the first son dies, or Robert for the right of cousin inheritance.

Rhaenyra fought for herself as much as for her sons ... and her cause triumphed in the end because he bloodline ended up being in charge whilst the Green Targaryens died out.

LOL, no. You pretend to know the book. Tyland wasn't even there when Aegon II was murdered and replaced by Aegon III. Had he and Marston Waters been there, they would have likely been killed, too, because they were too loyal to Aegon II. Tyland was chosen as Hand because he was deemed weak because of the mutilations he suffered. That was not the case as it turned out, but he was not chosen because he was in a position of strength.

And in sense you can interpret his apparent loyalty to Aegon III - the prince he wanted to murder earlier! - as a way to suck up to the king, i.e. as weakness because he may have feared correctly that were he to antagonize the boy further the boy might turn on him and have his head the very day he took the government into his own hands.

The setup of the Regency government has literally nothing to do with the fact that the Blacks won. They included men from the losing side into the government they built - because the moron Corlys Velaryon thought this was necessary. That's also why they went through with the Jaehaera match. It prevented the Greens from making her a pretender in her own right. But, of course, it was the ultimate betryal of Elenda Baratheon to hand Jaehaera to Aegon III and his government.

Compare it to Jaehaerys' victory over Maegor. He, too, ended up included former Maegor loyalists into his government - but he didn't have to do this. He and his mother decided to take that road. They didn't have to.

Aegon III only got a regency council made up of Blacks and Greens because Cregan Stark gave up his power.

You pull the idea out of your ass that the widows had been placated there. They agreed to terms long before a regency government was set up. That took place months later after the wedding of Aegon III and Jaehaera.

You don't seem to understand that people in power are free to give up that power. Which is what they did.

Peake's rise has literally nothing to do with the power dynamics at the end of the war. He wasn't even part of the regency council originally - and could only enter into it and amass power because others on the council and crucial royal officials died like flies during the Winter Fever.

Again, you are pulling stuff out of your ass. The proclamation of King Aegon III was not negotiable. He is proclaimed king and treated as such from the moment of Aegon II's murder after which Larys, Corlys, and Aegon III welcome the Lads in the city. The new king is already made, and whatever terms were offered to the defeated Greens didn't involve him being unmade.

Jaehaera's inclusion was also not yet settled when Aegon III was proclaimed king. As Cregan points out, Lady Elenda has Jaehaera, she could crown her queen. She could have also decided to keep her price and betroth Jaehaera Targaryen to her newborn son Royce. There was no automatism there. For some reason Corlys of all people wanted that match and he eventually got it. But it has literally nothing to do with Aegon III becoming king. Nor was it anything any Greens insisted on as condition to lay down arms. Effectively all of them didn't want to continue the war, not even Lyonel Hightower.

Aegon II lost his war because his allies abandoned him even before his murder.

It was overwhelmingly generous indeed. They didn't have to do any of that. It was an attempt to heal the wounds and unite the Realm again ... but never a condition for peace.

It is like saying the Germans or Iraqis being allowed to rule themselves after they were crushed in war means they somehow 'didn't lose'. They lost, but the victors then decided that they would allow the defeated to choose their own (civil) government. The victorious Blacks also decided to include some Greens in the government they created.

It is not only that, but he could also have done it better. By not deciding to make Rhaenyra the anointed heir of her father. By not going with Aegon the Younger actually being Aegon II's hostage. By allowing Aegon II the grace of a natural death (his many injuries could have easily enough triggered some sort of complication which, in turn, would then cause an early natural death). If Aegon II had died suddenly and unexpectedly before one faction could win a decisive victor in the field ... then Aegon III's coronation could have indeed been some kind of compromise offered to the Blacks to make a peace. Aegon III would have been the last male Targaryen alive - something the Greens could live with - while also happening to be Rhaenyra's sole surviving son and heir.

But that's not the setting we get. We get a setting where Aegon II is blatantly and openly murdered to crown the son of Rhaenyra after the last Green army has been crushed in the field and the Green side has no viable pretender left anyone would fight for.

This setting - as well as the comparable strength of Rhaenyra's cause throughout the war and before - makes the outcome that she is not remembered as a martyr by her descendants is quite odd and not fitting with things.

I always feel like Corlys acted as a moral and good person in the dance, but def a bad ally.

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Greens won become Aegon outlived Rhaenyra, who was forced to flee King’s Landing. Little Aegon’s claim is through Daemon, not Rhaenyra. Since Aegon’s brothers were dead, and neither with legitimate children, it bounced back to Daemon (dead) and then his son (alive).

That is faulty fanon, made up by people who want to resolve non-existing problems. Nobody in the book mentions Aegon III's claim going through Daemon. Nor does anyone bring it up later. From the Green perspective Daemon was a worse traitor than Rhaenyra, so if she was no queen Daemon would be an attainted traitor, too, like Shireen Baratheon is from the point of view of the Lannister regime. No one's claim could pass through Daemon if their claim was considered by a Green loyalist.

Also, in context, talk about Daemon makes no sense at all. Aegon III is proclaimed king in a coup after Aegon II has been murdered by his own men. They do this to save themselves from the wrath of Rhaenyra's followers knocking at their gates. The only reason why Aegon III is proclaimed king and not Jaehaera proclaimed queen is that the Blacks crushed the Greens in the field. That is why Aegon II is murdered. Had Aegon III not been Rhaenyra's son nobody would have proclaimed him king.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Either it comes from his mother or it comes because his uncle named him heir, Daemon is completely irrelevant in this scenario. 

We can say that the fact that Aegon II (kind of) accepted Aegon III as his temporary heir would have helped to smooth over things with the remaining Greens. Corlys and Larys and the Lads and Cregan could say that the late king was also fine with Aegon III succeeding him - just as he was with his daughter Jaehaera marrying her first cousin - so who would be the Lannisters and Baratheons and Hightowers to complain ... but as you say, that's clearly not the reason why and how he became king.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

But one needs to bend themseves backwards to try and argue that after the Muddy mess it was anything but a complete Black(militarily) victory, if a phyrric one anyway.

It wasn't a Pyrrhic victory as far as I see it. The Greens stopped fighting but the Blacks had the numbers to continue the war. Sure enough, the Blacks decided not to include Greens in the regency government and they failed to control the government due to the fact that Corlys died too early and the Corbray Protector of the Realm was incompetent and also died early ... but from a dynastic victory it was a total victory as Rhaenyra's bloodline prevailed. It became even more total when Unwin Peake freed Aegon III from his Green queen and enabled him to pick a Velaryon bride.

1 hour ago, Zamila said:

I always feel like Corlys acted as a moral and good person in the dance, but def a bad ally.

Corlys' obsession with that weird-as-hell Aegon-Jaehaera match just makes no sense. He ridiculously brings it up first while Jaehaera is on the run with her KG and could already be dead ... and then he suggests marrying Aegon II's daughter to Rhaenyra's younger surviving son, not her heir, Joffrey Velaryon. That would have resolved nothing. (I know that Joff was promised to a Manderly girl, but that was when he was but Rhaenyra's third son, not her heir.)

Also, it feels completely weird that Corlys would want Aegon II's daughter marrying Aegon the Younger while his own granddaughters Baela and Rhaena are yet unmarried - they would be ideally suited to be married to Joffrey and/or Aegon instead of a missing princess who might even be dead.

Corlys should have suggested one of his granddaughters marry Daeron the Daring. And the Aegon-Jaehaera match should have been an idea he only formed after Aegon II's restoration and the revelation that Jaehaera lived and had been taken to Storm's End.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is faulty fanon, made up by people who want to resolve non-existing problems. Nobody in the book mentions Aegon III's claim going through Daemon. Nor does anyone bring it up later. From the Green perspective Daemon was a worse traitor than Rhaenyra, so if she was no queen Daemon would be an attainted traitor, too, like Shireen Baratheon is from the point of view of the Lannister regime. No one's claim could pass through Daemon if their claim was considered by a Green loyalist.

Also, in context, talk about Daemon makes no sense at all. Aegon III is proclaimed king in a coup after Aegon II has been murdered by his own men. They do this to save themselves from the wrath of Rhaenyra's followers knocking at their gates. The only reason why Aegon III is proclaimed king and not Jaehaera proclaimed queen is that the Blacks crushed the Greens in the field. That is why Aegon II is murdered. Had Aegon III not been Rhaenyra's son nobody would have proclaimed him king.

We can say that the fact that Aegon II (kind of) accepted Aegon III as his temporary heir would have helped to smooth over things with the remaining Greens. Corlys and Larys and the Lads and Cregan could say that the late king was also fine with Aegon III succeeding him - just as he was with his daughter Jaehaera marrying her first cousin - so who would be the Lannisters and Baratheons and Hightowers to complain ... but as you say, that's clearly not the reason why and how he became king.

It wasn't a Pyrrhic victory as far as I see it. The Greens stopped fighting but the Blacks had the numbers to continue the war. Sure enough, the Blacks decided not to include Greens in the regency government and they failed to control the government due to the fact that Corlys died too early and the Corbray Protector of the Realm was incompetent and also died early ... but from a dynastic victory it was a total victory as Rhaenyra's bloodline prevailed. It became even more total when Unwin Peake freed Aegon III from his Green queen and enabled him to pick a Velaryon bride.

Corlys' obsession with that weird-as-hell Aegon-Jaehaera match just makes no sense. He ridiculously brings it up first while Jaehaera is on the run with her KG and could already be dead ... and then he suggests marrying Aegon II's daughter to Rhaenyra's younger surviving son, not her heir, Joffrey Velaryon. That would have resolved nothing. (I know that Joff was promised to a Manderly girl, but that was when he was but Rhaenyra's third son, not her heir.)

Also, it feels completely weird that Corlys would want Aegon II's daughter marrying Aegon the Younger while his own granddaughters Baela and Rhaena are yet unmarried - they would be ideally suited to be married to Joffrey and/or Aegon instead of a missing princess who might even be dead.

Corlys should have suggested one of his granddaughters marry Daeron the Daring. And the Aegon-Jaehaera match should have been an idea he only formed after Aegon II's restoration and the revelation that Jaehaera lived and had been taken to Storm's End.

We’re told in the world book/FnB that the Great Council of 101 set a precedent that the Iron Throne could not pass to either a woman or her male descendants.
 

Quote

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendents.

Then we’re told that the people who wanted Viserys to change the succession often cited the council decision in their argument. 
 

Quote

The Princess of Dragonstone remained his heir, with half the lords of Westeros sworn to defend her rights. Those who asked, “What of the ruling of the Great Council of 101?” found their words falling on deaf ears. The matter had been decided, so far as King Viserys was concerned; it was not an issue His Grace cared to revisit.

Quote

It was Ser Otto’s wish (then) that Princess Rhaenyra succeed her father. “Better the Realm’s Delight than Lord Flea Bottom,” he wrote. Nor was he alone in his opinion. Yet his party faced a formidable hurdle. If the precedent set by the Great Council of 101 was followed, a male claimant must prevail over a female. In the absence of a trueborn son, the king’s brother would come before the king’s daughter, as Baelon had come before Rhaenys in 92 AC

I think this is sufficient evidence that Aegon the Younger’s claim is through his father, Daemon.

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