Four New Cast Members Announced

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We’re told in the world book/FnB that the Great Council of 101 set a precedent that the Iron Throne could not pass to either a woman or her male descendants.
 

Then we’re told that the people who wanted Viserys to change the succession often cited the council decision in their argument. 
 

I think this is sufficient evidence that Aegon the Younger’s claim is through his father, Daemon.

No, it isn't. There is a qualifier there, 'in the eyes of many'. And that was weakened by the fact that Viserys I ignored it, named Rhaenyra, and more than half the Realm fought for her and her sons from her first marriage.

Now, Aegon III's descent from Rhaenyra and Daemon might be cited later when Baelor's sisters and Rhaegel's daughter is passed over ... but it played no role at all in the ascension of Aegon III. Poison and betrayal and a coup made him king, very much like Maegor and Aegon II. Legal arguments never came up. And when the succession of Aegon III is discussed by the regents Jaehaera's blood claim is viewed as stronger than Aegon's own. Her problem is her youth and mental state, not her sex.

Your idea could be a later ad hoc justification to weaken or ignore the female (line) claim, but I would be surprised if that ever came up. If Rhaenyra is a traitor, Daemon is worse and as able to pass on claims as Daemon Blackfyre in the eyes of Bloodraven, say.

Also, note that Tyland Lannister effectively ridicules the 'only male line claimants' idea in light of the fact that prior to the return of Viserys there were none such. At best they could hope for Baela and Rhaena producing sons. In their absence the throne would have to go to one of them or a daughter of theirs.

[dsjj251]

On 4/25/2023 at 2:18 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

In this case, the conflict would be that Rhaenyra wants to arrest Nettles because she’s a bastard, despite her own children being bastards. And based on the little we’ve seen of them, the boys have internalized the shame of that to a degree.

The conflict could be the assumption that Corlys = Otto. Its simple and actually works. 

[dsjj251]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:46 AM, Annara Snow said:

Aegon III became the ruling King because he was male. Duh.

I dont understand why we keep having this argument when Fire and Blood exists.

 

Fire and Blood specifically states that Aegon III is king because he is Rhaenyra's  heir, not because he is male. 

 

[Zamila]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys' obsession with that weird-as-hell Aegon-Jaehaera match just makes no sense. He ridiculously brings it up first while Jaehaera is on the run with her KG and could already be dead ... and then he suggests marrying Aegon II's daughter to Rhaenyra's younger surviving son, not her heir, Joffrey Velaryon. That would have resolved nothing. (I know that Joff was promised to a Manderly girl, but that was when he was but Rhaenyra's third son, not her heir.)

Also, it feels completely weird that Corlys would want Aegon II's daughter marrying Aegon the Younger while his own granddaughters Baela and Rhaena are yet unmarried - they would be ideally suited to be married to Joffrey and/or Aegon instead of a missing princess who might even be dead.

Corlys should have suggested one of his granddaughters marry Daeron the Daring. And the Aegon-Jaehaera match should have been an idea he only formed after Aegon II's restoration and the revelation that Jaehaera lived and had been taken to Storm's End.

I think even this match is a rather small issue in his decision making. At the end of the dance, it's clear that the black wins. Most of the Green allies were either surrendered or crushed. The only resistance fraction was the Hightowers (Main force already defeated in tumbletown), surrounded by the Black loyalists in the reach. But now the Blacks has three well-prepared main forces: the river Lords army (already won series of battles), The Vale army and the North army (Both strong and undamaged by the war). If the Blacks are willing to continue to crush the rest of the Greens and make a complete win That's totally ok. I understand Corlys' intention to avoid more bloodshed. Yet his over-apeasement is not necessary. With such overwhelming superiority he let the Green lords just surrender without any punishment? Just look at how the Blackfyre supporters were punished by land and castle being penalized for treason. I'd say the seem-to-be no-winner situation of the dance was solely caused by Corlys' postwar appeasement. 

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, Zamila said:

I think even this match is a rather small issue in his decision making.

Yes. My criticisim is aimed at the point in time Corlys first suggests this match - it is when Rhaenyra is at the height of her power and they discuss how to deal with the remaining Greens in the field. Corlys suggests pardons Aegon II and his brothers, gracious terms to the Green lords ... and this match between Jaehaera and Aegon the Younger.

Which just doesn't make much sense at that time.

Later it does because it neutralizes Jaehaera's claim and puts her in the power of Aegon III. I mean, on the outside it looks as if the marriage is a unification thing - and dynastically it could have been. But politically it neutralized Jaehaera's ability to become an independent pretender. She would never be used as a pretender against Aegon III by other people nor put forth her own claim as a grown woman. She would also not breed with some great lord (Borros Baratheon's son Royce, say) to transfer her blood claim to the scions of a powerful family. Instead, she would give birth to Rhaenyra's grandchildren.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

I don't remember the rules on what is allowed to be discussed on this forum regarding the leaks information coming from the set. Since exterior filming for HOTD season 2 has started this week in Spain, more leaks are bond to arrive soon.

Is there already a thread devoted to this kind of information ?

[Annara Snow]

You guys are truly hilarious with that "The Blacks totally won the war" thing. It's almost making me believe you actually have convinced yourselves. 

Somehow you've managed to tationalizeTyland Lannister of all people being the Hand of the King and half of the regents Greens and Unwin Peake eventually the most powerful person during the Regency, not to mention the whole Rhaenyra being stricken from the list of rulers thing , but here is my very favorite "The Blacks totally won the Dance!" quote from F&B. 

Quote

The king's sixteenth nameday was drawing near. WIth the realm at peace, and spring in full flower, Lord Torrhen Manderly decided that King Aegon and Queen Daenera should make a royal progress to mark his coming of age. (...) Even the clothing that the king and queen would wear would wear came in for careful thought. On the days when Queen Daenaera wore green, it was decided, Aegon would be clad in his customary black. But when the little queen wore the red-and-black of House Targaryen, the king would don a green cloak, so both would be seen wherever they go.

The one thing funnier than fans who insist the Blacks won, however, are the fans on Twitter who simultaneously insist that the Blacks won and that F&B was written as "green propaganda"... They should really pick a struggle! 

Anyway, if anyone here cares about casting for HotD, Redanian Intelligence has some new rumors based on people being spotted on set. Apparently an actress called Anna Francolini has been filming in Leavesden, and they speculate she's playing Jeyne Arryn. Actors called Ralph Davis and Scroobius Pip are seen among the cast in King's Landing. An actress called Ellora Torchio is speculated to have joined the cast, and based on her looks, I'd guess that's Sylvenna Sand being introduced early (as she should be). And there's a picture of one of Aegon's Kinsguard who looks like Vincent Regan, the one actor of those I actually am familiar with. If that's him I'd guess Gyles Belgrave.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

You guys are truly hilarious with that "The Blacks totally won the war" thing. It's almost making me believe you actually have convinced yourselves. 

Somehow you've managed to tationalizeTyland Lannister of all people being the Hand of the King and half of the regents Greens and Unwin Peake eventually the most powerful person during the Regency, not to mention the whole Rhaenyra being stricken from the list of rulers thing , but here is my very favorite "The Blacks totally won the Dance!" quote from F&B. 

Why can't you let this go? Aegon III was crowned king! He, not Jaehaera, not Aegon II's last surviving descendant. That means his side won. It was a dynastic struggle. And the way to measure victory in a dynastic struggle is by way of checking whose bloodline prevailed in the end. It is like saying Empress Matilda's side 'didn't win' their conflict with King Stephen despite the fact that Stephen was unable to pass on his stolen throne to an heir of his own choosing ... and was forced to hand it to Matilda's son (who was fine transferring her claim to her son, Henry II).

It is completely irrelevant who served on his government, who he married, who staffed his court. He was the king, he wore the crown, he and his little brother continued the Targaryen dynasty.

Even if Alicent and Otto Hightower had served as Aegon III's regent and Hand they would have lost. Because their goal, the goal of the Green party was to deny Rhaenyra's blood access to the Iron Throne, was to put one of their own on the throne. They fought for the blood of Alicent Hightower. And they lost.

And we know they lost militarily, were utter crushed in the field, abandoned by their so-called allies even before Aegon II's 'friends' fed their king his poison (even more so thereafter), their only hope being hilarious dreams about Essosi sellswords taking up their cause. The Greens were forced to accept a peace and a king they never wanted. Whereas the Blacks even chained Aegon II's last surviving child to their king. Any actual Green loyalist would view Jaehaera Targaryen as the rightful monarch of Westeros after the cowardly and treasonous murder of Aegon II - and the last thing they would want for her is to marry Rhaenyra's broken brat while he sits the Iron Throne in her place. It is like saying the Starks and their supporters would be fine with a peace where Sansa or Arya are forced to marry Joffrey or Tommen.

Even if we imagined a more equal compromise - in any setting where Aegon III or Viserys II become king the Black cause won. That is inevitable. They accomplished their goal.

And your quote there is a joke, really. The progress was supposed to be a show of unity. But it was a unity in the wake of a Black victory and the coronation of a Black king. Of course they could play around with the colors of the war parties if they wanted to. But you know what? King Aegon III and Queen Daenaera never actually did this progress ... and perhaps one reason for that was that the Hand and the regents and the court thought they could use their king as their figurehead and mouthpiece ever after he came of age. Guess what? They couldn't. And I'd be very surprised if Aegon III ever wore green.

It also strikes one as obvious that his customary blacks can be seen as a very clear political statement. If Aegon III didn't want to give the impression he was Black at heart he would have adjusted his wardrobe - wearing another color entirely, or swapping Targaryen blacks for Targaryen reds. Just as it is quite striking that the colors of House Targaryen remained the red-and-black they had always been and didn't include any green silliness (as they could have like with the Tudor rose allegedly being a combination of the York rose and the Lancaster rose). Rhaenyra's colors triumphed like her bloodline triumphed. In that context you cannot but wonder why George had Rhaenyra wear a gown in the traditional Targaryen colors at the tourney where the rivalry allegedly started - while associating Alicent and her party with a color that is actually (also) associated with envy in the European tradition. I don't think that is an accident - George could just as well have made gold (like in Aegon's sigil) or the Hightower colors the color of Alicent's party. But he didn't.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

The one thing funnier than fans who insist the Blacks won, however, are the fans on Twitter who simultaneously insist that the Blacks won and that F&B was written as "green propaganda"... They should really pick a struggle! 

Could you perhaps keep twitter out of discussions of adults? It is fine if you look for links and fotos and 'news' ... but not for a discussion. The place is designed to breed and fuel conflict, so keep it there.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

An actress called Ellora Torchio is speculated to have joined the cast, and based on her looks, I'd guess that's Sylvenna Sand being introduced early (as she should be).

Why would one want Sylvenna Sand being introduced early? The woman doesn't really feature in the story. If there is a character they could easily cut it would be her. Essie could easily enough have a political mind of her own.

Not saying they should cut her, but having her early would mean we get silly brothel scenes and other stuff like that.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

And there's a picture of one of Aegon's Kinsguard who looks like Vincent Regan, the one actor of those I actually am familiar with. If that's him I'd guess Gyles Belgrave.

Gyles Belgrave would only feature in the next season if they weren't able to keep things straight. He is not part of Viserys I's KG. We know what happens to those of Viserys' Seven who stand with Aegon II (sans Harrold Westerling, of course), and aside from Willis Fell who hides at Storm's End they all die. Aegon II only appoints new members to his Kingsguard after his restoration at the end of the war, beginning with Marston Waters on Dragonstone.

We would need a rather convoluted KG plot if Aegon II had more KG in KL prior to Rhaenyra's ascension because that would then mean we need explanations what happened to them, what they did during the second half of the war, how they survived until Aegon II's restoration, etc. If, for instance, Larys Strong were to sent some other KG with Aegon II to Dragonstone then that would inevitably mess with the Marston Waters' plot. The chances that a KG of Aegon's could remain in KL after Rhaenyra takes over makes little sense - they would never trust a guy who swear a vow to Aegon II. They would be executed or sent to the Wall.

It is just much easier to go with the plot we have ... and to focus and flesh out a character like Marston Waters rather than a named extra like Belgrave.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Lord Varys

[The Bard of Banefort]

Tyland becoming Hand never made sense to me. He had been urging big Aegon to cut off little Aegon’s body parts like three days earlier. I don’t see how any of little Aegon’s supporters trusted him.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyland becoming Hand never made sense to me. He had been urging big Aegon to cut off little Aegon’s body parts like three days earlier. I don’t see how any of little Aegon’s supporters trusted him.

They probably felt safe enough with Leowyn Corbray as Protector of the Realm and the other black Regents and Kingsguards around Aegon III.

[frenin]

16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

You guys are truly hilarious with that "The Blacks totally won the war" thing. It's almost making me believe you actually have convinced yourselves. 

Throwing insults is not giving any reasoning.

 

16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

The Blacks totally won the Dance!" quote from F&B. 

The whole arrangement after the Dance was based on showing unity. What has that to do with anything? Are you reading past our posts?

Are you arguing in bad faith oh how this goes? This is going to be a little long so, feel free to ignore it (you have done that before so) if you want but at least, it'll help others i hope.

 

•  We know that Corlys Velaryon was the drivinng factor behind the post Dance, chiefly that he was the one behind the betrothal between Aegon and Jaehara,   arrangements because he keeps saying that ever since Rhaenyra is on the throne and after he switches sides.

 

He pushes for pardon and reconciliation while Rhaenyra is ruling, to which Rhaenyra partly agrees but refuses to spare her siblings at that stage and he does so again once he swores for Aegon.

We also know that neither Alicent nor Aegon had any intention in honoring those terms unless they were militarily forced to do so.

 

Quote

Cognizant of all these threats, Queen Rhaenyra’s Hand, old Lord Corlys Velaryon, suggested to Her Grace that the time had come to talk. He urged the queen to offer pardons to Lords Baratheon, Hightower, and Lannister if they would bend their knees, swear fealty, and offer hostages to the Iron Throne.

The Sea Snake proposed to let the Faith take charge of Dowager Queen Alicent and Queen Helaena, so that they might spend the remainder of their lives in prayer and contemplation. Helaena’s daughter, Jaehaera, could be made his own ward, and in due time be married to Prince Aegon the Younger, binding the two halves of House Targaryen together once again.

“And what of my half-brothers?” Rhaenyra demanded, when the Sea Snake put this plan before her. “What of this false king Aegon, and the kinslayer Aemond? Would you have me pardon them as well, they who stole my throne and slew my sons?” “Spare them, and send them to the Wall,” Lord Corlys answered. “Let them take the black and live out their lives as men of the Night’s Watch, bound by sacred vows.”  “What are vows to oathbreakers?” Queen Rhaenyra demanded. “Their vows did not trouble them when they took my throne.”  Prince Daemon echoed the queen’s misgivings. Giving pardons to rebels and traitors only sowed the seeds for fresh rebellions, he insisted. “The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King’s Gate, and not before.”

Aegon II would be found in time, “hiding under some rock,” but they could and should bring the war to Aemond and Daeron.

The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed…to the horror of the Sea Snake. “Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.
  It fell to the queen herself to choose between her consort and her  Hand. Rhaenyra decided to steer a middle course. She would send envoys to Storm’s End and Casterly Rock, offering fair terms and pardons…after she had put an end to the usurper’s brothers, who were in the field against her. “Once they are dead, the rest will bend the knee. Slay their dragons, that I might mount their heads upon the walls of my throne room. Let men look upon them in the years to come, that they might know the cost of treason.”

 

Quote

 Behind the walls of the Red Keep, the Dowager Queen Alicent and Lord Larys Strong had offered the Sea Snake his freedom, a full pardon for his treasons, and a place on the king’s small council if he would bend his knee to Aegon II as his king and deliver them the swords and sails of Driftmark. The old man had proved to be surprisingly intractable, however. “My knees are old and stiff and do not bend easily,” Lord Corlys responded, before setting forth terms of his own. He wanted pardons not only for himself, but for all those who had fought for Queen Rhaenyra, and demanded further that Aegon the Younger be given Princess Jaehaera’s hand in marriage, so the two of them might jointly be proclaimed King Aegon’s heirs. “The realm has been split asunder,” he said. “We must needs join it back together.” Lord Baratheon’s daughters did not interest him, but he wanted Lady Baela freed at once. 

Queen Alicent was outraged by Lord Velaryon’s “arrogance,” Munkun tells us, especially his demand that Queen Rhaenyra’s Aegon be named as heir to her own Aegon. She had suffered the loss of two of her three sons and her only daughter during the Dance, and could not bear the thought that any of her rival’s sons should live.

 

Quote

[...] The Sea Snake favored reconciliation, pardon, and peace. [...] 
 Lord Velaryon saw such efforts as futile. “We do not have the time. Children sit in the seats of power at Oldtown and Casterly Rock. We will find no more help there. The best free companies are bound by contract to Lys, Myr, or Tyrosh. Even if Ser Tyland could prise them loose, he could not bring them here in time. My ships can keep the Arryns from our door, but who will stop the northmen and the lords of the Trident? They are already on the march. We  must make terms. His Grace should absolve them of all their crimes and treasons, proclaim Rhaenyra’s Aegon his heir, and marry him at once to Princess Jaehaera. It is the only way.”
 The old man’s words fell upon deaf ears, however. Queen Alicent had reluctantly agreed to the betrothal of her granddaughter to Rhaenyra’s son, but she had done so without the king’s consent. Aegon II had other ideas. He wished to marry Cassandra Baratheon at once, for “she will give me strong sons, worthy of the Iron Throne.” Nor would he allow Prince Aegon to wed his daughter, and perhaps sire sons who might muddy the succession. “He can take the black and spend his days at the Wall,” His Grace decreed, “or else give up his manhood and serve me as a eunuch. The choice is his, but he shall have no children. My sister’s line must end.”

 

•   We know how the miiltarily the situation was because again, we're told several times.

 

Quote

Lord Borros himself was still ahorse in the middle of the carnage. When he saw the battle slipping away, his lordship bade his squire sound his warhorn, signaling his reserve to advance. Upon hearing the horn, however, the men of Rosby, Stokeworth, and Hayford let fall the king’s golden dragons and remained unmoving, the rabble from King’s Landing scattered like geese, and the knights of Duskendale went over to the foe, attacking the stormlanders in the  rear. Battle turned to rout in half a heartbeat, as King Aegon’s last army shattered.

 

Quote

When the ravens brought word of the battle back to the Red Keep, the green council hurriedly convened. All of the Sea Snake’s warnings had proved true. [...] 
 King Aegon II would soon stand naked before his enemies, all of the king’s men knew. Bloody Ben Blackwood, Kermit Tully, Sabitha Frey, and their brothers-in-victory were preparing to resume their advance upon the city, and only a few days behind them came Lord Cregan Stark and his northmen. The Braavosi fleet carrying the Arryn host had departed Gulltown and was sailing toward the Gullet, where only young Alyn Velaryon stood in its way…and the loyalty of Driftmark could not be relied upon.
 “Your Grace,” the Sea Snake said, when the rump of the once proud green council had assembled, “you must surrender. The city cannot endure another sack. Save your people and save yourself. If you abdicate in favor of Prince Aegon, he will allow you to take the black and live out your life with honor on the Wall. “Will he?” King Aegon said. Munkun tells us he sounded hopeful.
  His mother entertained no such hope. “You fed his mother to your dragon,” she reminded her son. “The boy saw it all.”

 

• After the Muddy mess it is not doubted for a second, who are the new people in charge, if that was too subtle, again, the book makes it clear that the Blacks were in charge and they would set up whatever conditions for peace. First among them, it wasn't a choice that Aegon the younger  would get the throne.

 

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The circumstances under which the boy king began his reign were far from auspicious. The riverlords who had broken Aegon II’s last army at the Battle of the Kingsroad marched to King’s Landing prepared for battle. Instead Lord Corlys Velaryon and Prince Aegon rode forth to meet them under a peace banner. “The king is dead, long live the king,” Lord Corlys said, as he yielded up the city to their mercy.

 

Quote

The Lads knew Lord Corlys Velaryon only by reputation, but that reputation was formidable. Having arrived at King’s Landing with  the expectation that they would need to besiege the city or take it by storm, they were delighted (if surprised) to have it presented to them as on a gilded platter…and to learn that Aegon II was dead (though Benjicot Blackwood and his aunt both expressed disquiet about the manner of his death, for poison was regarded as a coward’s weapon, and lacking in honor). Glad cries rang down the field as word of the king’s death spread, and one by one the Lord of the Trident and their allies came forward to bend their knees before Prince Aegon and hail him as their king.

 

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 The realm’s new rulers found themselves divided on the question of what to do with the Dowager Queen Alicent, but elsewise all seemed in accord, and good fellowship reigned…for the best part of a fortnight.

 

• We are also told who the last remaining Green threat is and why he can't act up on it.

 

Quote

Last to respond was Oldtown. The wealthiest of the great houses that had rallied to King Aegon II, the Hightowers remained in some ways the most dangerous, for they were capable of raising large new armies quickly from the streets of Oldtown, and with their own warships and those of their close kin, the Redwynes of the Arbor,  they could float a significant fleet as well. Moreover, one-quarter of the Crown’s gold still rested in deep vaults beneath the Hightower, gold that could easily have been used to buy new alliances and hire sellsword companies. Oldtown had the power to renew the war; all that was lacking was the will. [...]    This is the tale as Mushroom tells it, in any case. Munkun’s True Telling ascribes a different cause to Lord Lyonel’s change of heart, however. It must be recalled that the Hightowers, as rich and powerful as they were, were bannermen sworn to House Tyrell of Highgarden, where his lordship’s brother Garmund was a page. The Tyrells had taken no part in the Dance (ruled as they were by a little lord in swaddling clothes), but now at last they bestirred themselves, forbidding Lord Lyonel to raise a host or go to war without their leave. Should he disobey, his brother would pay for that defiance with his life…for every ward is also a hostage, as a wise man once said. Or so Grand Maester Munkun avers.

 

• The Greens were  given absolutely zero hints that they would get to share  power, they were only given full pardons if they accepted Aegon the younger as the monarch, period. Not as Aegon's heir, not that Rhaenyra would be henceforth considered a usurper.

 

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 A cloud of ravens rose from the Red Keep, summoning the poisoned king’s remaining loyalists in Oldtown, the Reach, Casterly Rock, and Storm’s End to King’s Landing to do  homage to their new monarch. Safe conducts were given, full pardons promised.

 

• And we're also told that Colys' power sharing plan would have been denied had Cregan cared enough to stay in the south.

Quote

Cregan Stark’s brief service as the Hand of the Uncrowned King ended the next day, when he returned his chain of office to Prince Aegon. He might easily have remained King’s Hand for years, or even claimed the regency until young Aegon came of age, but the south held no interest for him. “The snows are falling in the North,” he announced, “and my place is at Winterfell.”

 

Were there still several members of the Green faction? Sure, but that happens in any war. I bet that there were more loyalists alive in the aftermath of the Robellion than they were Greens after the Dance.

 

Now, the war is obviously a phyrric victory, Rhaenyra's heirs die but one of them, she herself suffers a gruesome death and for some odd reason at some point along the line she is officially declared pretender/usurper.

It's a victory nonetheless, the post war arrangements have little to nothing to do with the outcome of the war, else Mace Tyrell would have been Robert's Hand.

 

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyland becoming Hand never made sense to me. He had been urging big Aegon to cut off little Aegon’s body parts like three days earlier. I don’t see how any of little Aegon’s supporters trusted him.

As we keep pointing out - the Black victory at the end of the Dance and the triumph of King Aegon III is not directly connected to the later staffing of the regency council and government. Aegon III becomes king because the Greens are crushed in the field, lose all supports among their alleged loyalists, and Aegon II's own court murders him. That is a total and decisive defeat of the Greens.

The victors then offer not only generous terms to the former Greens but also decide to include some of them in the regency government. Tyland's pardon is one of Lady Johanna's terms and she does have some leeway there as she still has a quarter of the royal treasury in her possession as well as a lot of money in general. In exchange for all that, she greatly helps with the rebuilding of the Realm after the war.

Tyland is made Hand because the people in charge actually want a weak Hand. It is not planned that he ends up running the show - the actual plan was that the regency council governs the Realm while the Hand merely executes their command as they would execute the commands of the king. One imagines that the real power at court was in the hands of Corlys Velaryon until his death - afterwards Tyland gained more power and subsequently power remained with Hand. Peake would have been more powerful as he was not just the Hand but also Protector of the Realm and one of the few regents left at court. Tyland's power seems to have been more informal, more the power of a guy who knew to play both the Corbray Protector as well as his superiors the regents. Peake then exerted real power.

Also, of course, months pass between Tyland wanting to kill Aegon the Younger and Tyland's return from Essos and his eventual rise to the Handship.

If Cregan hadn't gone back home and/or if Corlys' desire for unification hadn't prevailed the guys in charge of the regency government would have been all Blacks. And it is obvious that the Blacks got what they wanted - Aegon III on the throne - while the Greens neither avenged Aegon II (a Black zealot who felt the murderers stole his victory did that) nor continued to push the claim of the last Green claimant, Jaehaera Targaryen. They effectively gave up.

[Lord Varys]

To further illustrate the point - any monarch can staff his or her government with people of their liking. That doesn't mean those people had to be part of the government because the king or his court had no other choice.

Jaehaerys I also won a total victory over Maegor the Cruel and his cronies ... yet his regency government also include some Maegor cronies into his government - not because he was forced to do this because of the lingering strength of Maegor's supporters but as a sign of reconciliation. Similarly, the suggestion that Jaehaerys could marry Elinor Costayne was based on the same reasoning.

A victorious Stannis or Renly would also be free to include Tywin, Tyrion, or Robb Stark in his government - that mere fact as such wouldn't mean they were forced to do this. Although, of course, it would be possible that they were forced to.

However, literally nothing in the history as written in FaB suggests that Aegon III and his government were forced to include random Greens into the regency council, government, and court. That was a sign of goodwill and reconciliation, not a condition that Aegon III would get the throne! That decided long before a regency government was set.

Effectively we get two successive coups or changes of the people at the top after the murder of Aegon III. First when Cregan Stark seizes power from Corlys and Larys, and then also when Cregan gives up the power he has seized to go back home without establishing a proper government. Only then is the regency government we get later formed.

[Schloetz]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:37 PM, Colonel Green said:

It's also at least theoretically possible that they've combined Addam and Alyn into one character.

If I miss out on "Loyal," I riot

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Fullbuster said:

If I miss out on "Loyal," I riot

That is not part of the Dance, anyway, but the epitaph of Addam's reburial years later. The impact is that Alyn makes this then. Some guy calling him loyal when he dies has little meaning. We see that he was loyal.

[The Dragon Demands]

I don't know where it's appropriate to post this, but reliable news site Redanian Intelligence just claimed to have identified one of "the trio" of Green lords at the funeral of Jaehaerys in episode 3. 

We spotted these 3 actors on Instagram hanging out with main cast members, then on closer inspection noticed them in full costume, apparently as lords, riding directly behind the carriage with Alicent & Helaena (well, behind the Kingsguard). 

Even managed to identify the actors: 

• Ralph Davis - medium height, brown hair
• Tok Stephen - black
• Barney Fishwick - tall and ginger/strawberry blonde?

I made a 30 minute video summarizing the whole thing with slides - I talk about the lords, with spy photos, in the first ten minutes (and they're in the title card image behind Criston Cole)
 

 

Well I theorized that they might be important new Green lords and commanders not just speer-carriers.

Somewhat confirming this suspicion, Redanian Intelligence now claims that Barney Fishwick is credited as "Martyn Reyne".

I checked, while there is a "Lord Reyne" as a prominent commander in the main Lannister host during the Dance, he doesn't have a name and isn't a distinctive character.

I suspect there may be some condensations going on with the Lannister host - rather than Arian Tarbeck and the aging Lord Humfrey Lefford, we might just get "Jason Lannister, and his right hand lieutenant Martyn Reyne" - because you need two characters to have a conversation.

I'm fine with this - yeah some of the VERY minor characters in F&B you condense around (like, have "Lord Caswell's son" as a stand-in for half a dozen Reach Houses that declared for Rhaenyra). We're not unreasonable we know time is limited.

This touches on a bigger issue: the increasing suspicion that Jaehaerys's funeral is being used as a big meeting of all the Greens and their commanders, because the war only just began and the highways aren't closed yet. Increasingly speculated that Daeron AND Ormund Hightower might be introduced at the funeral. 

Also raises the question of who the other two lords are. Particularly...why is one black?

I think there are two major options: 

• He's a bastard Hightower whose mother was a Summer Islander. Given that Oldtown has been receiving Summer Islander merchant ships since the *Dawn Age*, this is quite plausible (like Oberyn and Sarella)
• ...he might be Marston Waters, pre-Kingsguard. I looked it up, Marston is "from Driftmark" so they might be using that as rationale. OR, he might be a condensation character of sorts with the many, many (shudder) "Minor Velaryon Cousins" from Fire & Blood. Maybe they even CONDENSED them all together, to essentially make Marston Waters the bastard son of TV-Vaemond, who will later be in the Kingsguard? Possible.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

This touches on a bigger issue: the increasing suspicion that Jaehaerys's funeral is being used as a big meeting of all the Greens and their commanders, because the war only just began and the highways aren't closed yet. Increasingly speculated that Daeron AND Ormund Hightower might be introduced at the funeral. 

For those three lordlings, it's possible they were already at court so no problem but having Daeron and Ormund at Jaehaerys's funeral is stupid. They spend the entire war making a slow march north towards King's Landing and never reach it, and now they somehow can make a two way travel between Oldtown and King's Landing before the hostilities really began ? I will only accept it if Ormund is travelling on Tessarion with Daeron to explain the fast travel.

I'm still not convinced Eddie Eyre is playing Ormund by the way.