Jon’s only failure as Lord Commander

[Curled Finger]

I do wonder if the Marsh/stabby plot will end with some resolution of the duty over love idea and value of oaths theme running throughout ASOIAF.  I realize Bowen Marsh and Jon Snow are polarizing characters and I don't mean to detract from either as I do sort of get both sides of the argument.  It is clear that there are still in our time plenty of organizations and attitudes that society have outgrown or have failed to grow with the people they are intended to serve.  Neither of these characters are evil men.  As @LongRider succinctly pointed out, all Marsh's big thinking conspirators are long gone and he is left to carry out a plan alone with minor players.  He is an accountant.  He is not frickin Littlefinger.  Jon Snow is guided by his heart and understands that all people are just people regardless of station or which side of the sheets or wall they are born.  He does no more for the Wildlings than Edmure Tully does for the smallfolk albeit on a much bigger scale.  Jon Snow's way of thinking isn't unique among the lords in Westeros or even the North.  I'm thinking Wintertown.  

We see a little of life lived in observing oaths in Jamie Lannister who was just about Jon's age when he landed his big gig with the Kingsguard.  A lifetime later we see a jaded and cynical knight who has to lose his sword hand that he really only uses in tournaments to rediscover what his job really means to him.  Perhaps Jon or Marsh will wake up a similar realization or truth following this unwise "act of duty" stabbing performed at the wall.  Perhaps the entire Nights Watch will.     

[LongRider]

Can Jamie really be compared to Jon though?  His entry into the Kingsgaurd was cynical from the start as it was arranged so he could continue his affair with Cersei.  Jon had no such problems until his promise to obey Qhorin Halfhand and his involvement with the Halfhand's death and then the Free Folk and Ygritte.  He was torn up about his vows and worried and fretted about them until he went back to CB.  Fortunately, he learned from his experience.  What and when did Jamie learn?   

11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A lifetime later we see a jaded and cynical knight who has to lose his sword hand that he really only uses in tournaments to rediscover what his job really means to him. 

Yes, will be interesting to see how Jon reacts after he is healed of his wounds. 

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Can Jamie really be compared to Jon though?  His entry into the Kingsgaurd was cynical from the start as it was arranged so he could continue his affair with Cersei.  Jon had no such problems until his promise to obey Qhorin Halfhand and his involvement with the Halfhand's death and then the Free Folk and Ygritte.  He was torn up about his vows and worried and fretted about them until he went back to CB.  Fortunately, he learned from his experience.  What and when did Jamie learn?   

Yes, will be interesting to see how Jon reacts after he is healed of his wounds. 

Nah, Jamie had stars in his eyes, total hero worship for Barristan and Dayne.  I get it that KG was a beard, but it was also his dream.  He was just a kid and he remains proud of fighting alongside those men when he won his knighthood at what? 15 or 16?  His first dream on his way home from captivity is of those men, even Rhaegar shows up to give him crap about duty and oaths.  Jon goes into his oaths clean. His only transgression is a midnight ride for what may have been greater good.  Jamie is convicted by dead men who only stood on the word, not spirit of those old oaths and duty.  Those dead men were the epitome of honor to him.  In the end, the worst thing Jamie did was in truth, the best thing he ever did.  But no one gets to know that until he unloads to Brienne, who begins to look like an honest real life knight to Jamie.  Reach out, touch faith?  Jamie isn't there yet, but it looks like that is where he wants to go.  I hope Jon gets the opportunity to get there, too.  

[LongRider]

@Curled Finger sure am enjoying this conversation today, what a change to be able to discuss these topics without rancor.  Are we agreeing on everything?  Fortunately, no, and that's a good thing as respectful disagreement can expand our enjoyment of this story.  

It's funny, Jamie goes into the KG with his heroes in his eyes, and Jon goes into the Watch thinking it's something it's not.  Both find out the real organizations are both more and less than they thought, and yet Jamie saved Kings Landing with an act that no one understands, and Jon is trying to save the North, and those who should be with him, i.e. the officers of the Watch, are not.    

Edited May 1, 2023 by LongRider

[csuszka1948]

I don't think Jon and Bowen Marsh are evil men either.

 

I think Jon is a hero (for the most part) and a visionary commander, but his temperament and impatiance (not explaining things that are obvious to him) are his flaws. Ramsey provoked him to make a rash and open commitment without thinking things through, and it got him killed and thrown the Watch into chaos. 

 

Bowen Marsh is meant to represent the more traditional part of the Watch. He is reasonably competent in his job and takes his duty seriously, but clearly isn't fit to be a leader (doesn't have the brains for it), especially not in such perilous times because his hatred towards the wildlings (+fear from retribution from the Iron Throne, but I think this is not unfounded) causes him to tunnel vision. I think his actions to kill Jon were guided more by desperation than by temperament, though. 

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Duty triumphing over love was a feature of Communist tyrannies, where you were expected to denounce your nearest and dearest to the authorities, for counter-revolutionary activities.

I don’t think history has judged that outlook kindly.

The Nights Watch vows are stupid, inhumane, and outmoded.  Soldiers don’t fight better, because they don’t have families.  If anything, the reverse.

 

I don't disagree about the general futility of vows.

 

My problem is twofold:

1) Jon is the Commander of the Night's Watch and if he breaks his vows in such a position it might come back to bite his entire organization or tear it apart. This is essentially what happened at the end of ADWD. If he was just a regular member of the NW, I would have no issue with him deserting (as he wanted at the end of AGOT).

2) Jon knows that there is a 'bigger danger' out there, namely the Others, who are probably out to destroy humanity. I think in such a position the truly virtuous thing to do is concentrating on his duty to protect the realm from them even at the expanse of his family. Yes, that's not the conventionally heroic thing to do (and admittedly not what I would probably do in such a position), but that's what makes it virtous.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

They killed Jon because in their eyes their worst suspicions about Jon proved true:

• he consorted with Stannis and Melisandre using dark magic to keep Mance Rayder (a known oathbreaker) alive and sent him to infiltrate Winterfell to rescue his sister (steal Ramsey's bride), getting him in conflict with the Boltons

Only they don’t know about the switcheroo, do they? I will never understand why so many readers assume anyone currently at CB other than Jon and Mel know about it. After all, both the crows and the free folk saw Mance burn w/ their own eyes. And they’re not going to start doubting what they saw themselves b/c of a weird letter from a known dodgy individual that contains lies and what are, in their eyes, insane requests like asking for “Reek”. 

7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

• he planned to lead a wildling army to against Winterfell - declaring open war with the crown

No, his plan is to intercept Ramsay before he arrives at CB making demands and to make him answer for his threats. 
Also, crown schmown. The IT never answered the Watch’s pleas for help, Stannis did. The job of the LC of the Watch is to defend the realms of men, and that’s exactly what Jon’s doing. 

7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

• while sending most of the Night's Watch to a suicide mission to Hardhome to rescue additional wildlings who cannot be fed. (Honestly, I think this might be the most likely motivator of the betrayal.)

Ah the good old “let them die” argument. The cowardly and bigoted argument… The problem is, even leaving the cowardice and bigotry out of the discussion, it’s a stupid move to leave thousands of people north of the Wall to die and then join the army of the enemy and come fight you. 

7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

They thought (and from the information they had it was actually very reasonable to think so!) that Jon's actions will doom the Night's Watch as a whole.

No, it’s not reasonable and their stupid attempt on Jon’s life may and likely will cost the Watch dearly. 
 

OP, imo all the major decisions Jon made in ADwD were not only the right ones but also the best ones he could have made to uphold the spirit of the vow which has fuck all to do w/ crowns or lands or the IT but rather “protecting the realms of men”. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Only they don’t know about the switcheroo, do they? I will never understand why so many readers assume anyone currently at CB other than Jon and Mel know about it. After all, both the crows and the free folk saw Mance burn w/ their own eyes. And they’re not going to start doubting what they saw themselves b/c of a weird letter from a known dodgy individual that contains lies and what are, in their eyes, insane requests like asking for “Reek”. 

No, his plan is to intercept Ramsay before he arrives at CB making demands and to make him answer for his threats. 
Also, crown schmown. The IT never answered the Watch’s pleas for help, Stannis did. The job of the LC of the Watch is to defend the realms of men, and that’s exactly what Jon’s doing. 

Ah the good old “let them die” argument. The cowardly and bigoted argument… The problem is, even leaving the cowardice and bigotry out of the discussion, it’s a stupid move to leave thousands of people north of the Wall to die and then join the army of the enemy and come fight you. 

No, it’s not reasonable and their stupid attempt on Jon’s life may and likely will cost the Watch dearly. 
 

OP, imo all the major decisions Jon made in ADwD were not only the right ones but also the best ones he could have made to uphold the spirit of the vow which has fuck all to do w/ crowns or lands or the IT but rather “protecting the realms of men”. 

Exactly. Either they are just bigots, willing to create thousands more enemies for humanity to deal with, or they are just plainly fucking stupid. And just because they are fucking stupid, doesn’t magically make them exempt from the consequences of their stupid decisions.

[kissdbyfire]

47 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't disagree about the general futility of vows.

 

My problem is twofold:

1) Jon is the Commander of the Night's Watch and if he breaks his vows in such a position it might come back to bite his entire organization or tear it apart. This is essentially what happened at the end of ADWD. If he was just a regular member of the NW, I would have no issue with him deserting (as he wanted at the end of AGOT).

2) Jon knows that there is a 'bigger danger' out there, namely the Others, who are probably out to destroy humanity. I think in such a position the truly virtuous thing to do is concentrating on his duty to protect the realm from them even at the expanse of his family. Yes, that's not the conventionally heroic thing to do (and admittedly not what I would probably do in such a position), but that's what makes it virtous.

He isn’t breaking his vows though… Just b/c he questions this himself doesn’t mean he is. He questions it b/c he has been hearing these mantras being repeated ad nauseam all his life - same as everyone else - about all that stuff that is not really that important and has a good chance of having been added later: take no wife, hold no land etc. And that stuff was probably added b/c the Watch has its fair share of bad LCs. But these things aren’t what matters in the vows… What matters is protecting the realms of men, which is what Jon’s doing, and at times doing it even instinctively. He remains true to the purpose of the NW, while Bowen fails miserably at it on several levels regardless of how good his intentions might have been. 
Disclaimer: I don’t think Bowen truly had good intentions even if I’m sure he’s convinced himself he did. He’s a bigot, he gives Jon hell about Satin, he’s xenophobic and he has no problem condemning thousands to die. So, for me, it will be a pleasure to read about Leathers sticking him w/ the pointy end or Ghost biting his head off or Wun Wun ripping him apart limb by racist limb.

 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Exactly. Either they are just bigots, willing to create thousands more enemies for humanity to deal with, or they are just plainly fucking stupid. And just because they are fucking stupid, doesn’t magically make them exempt from the consequences of their stupid decisions.

Exactly that. And they are bigots, we know they are. We even have Yarwyck using language to describe the free folk that is precisely the language slave owners used to describe slaves and justify the atrocities they committed:

“Yarwyck shook his head. “More trouble than they’re worth, that lot. Sloppy, careless, lazy … some good woodworkers here and there, I’ll not deny it, but hardly a mason amongst them, and nary a smith. Strong backs, might be, but they won’t do as they are told. And us with all these ruins to turn back into forts. Can’t be done, my lord. I tell you true. It can’t be done.”

[SeanF]

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He isn’t breaking his vows though… Just b/c he questions this himself doesn’t mean he is. He questions it b/c he has been hearing these mantras being repeated ad nauseam all his life - same as everyone else - about all that stuff that is not really that important and has a good chance of having been added later: take no wife, hold no land etc. And that stuff was probably added b/c the Watch has its fair share of bad LCs. But these things aren’t what matters in the vows… What matters is protecting the realms of men, which is what Jon’s doing, and at times doing it even instinctively. He remains true to the purpose of the NW, while Bowen fails miserably at it on several levels regardless of how good his intentions might have been. 
Disclaimer: I don’t think Bowen truly had good intentions even if I’m sure he’s convinced himself he did. He’s a bigot, he gives Jon hell about Satin, he’s xenophobic and he has no problem condemning thousands to die. So, for me, it will be a pleasure to read about Leathers sticking him w/ the pointy end or Ghost biting his head off or Wun Wun ripping him apart limb by racist limb.

 

Mel needs fuel for her fires.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Mel needs fuel for her fires.

That works as well, I'm not picky!

[BlackLightning]

Jon's biggest issue is his poor communication skills

His second biggest issue was that he never employed bodyguards or an escort of any kind

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Jon's biggest issue is his poor communication skills

I will never understand this argument, even if it's made again and again and again. How many times should he have explained things to Marsh & Yarwyck and whoever else? Where should the line be drawn? He had several conversations w/ his officers and that pathetic excuse of a septon... I mean, Flint and Norrey were able to see the big picture and understand everything in one meeting, but Marsh & co still couldn't after I don't know how many convos and knowing a lot more about the imminent threat of the Others. They're nor only bigoted they're also very stupid. And I'm not just saying this to defend Jon ( he doesn't need it). He's a lot more patient and willing to repeat the same thing over and over than I would ever be. If these eejits were working under me they would have been sacked/replaced after the 2nd or 3rd (if I'min a good mood) conversation and still not getting it. 

 

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

@Curled FingerIt's funny, Jamie goes into the KG with his heroes in his eyes, and Jon goes into the Watch thinking it's something it's not.  Both find out the real organizations are both more and less than they thought, and yet Jamie saved Kings Landing with an act that no one understands, and Jon is trying to save the North, and those who should be with him, i.e. the officers of the Watch, are not.    

 

 

 

 

I disagree about this.

Jaime didn't just go the KG because he wants to be a true knight, but also because he believes he can fuck with Cersei there. His motivation was in large part selfish.

The motivation of his 'greatest act' is also intentionally ambiguous. Did he kill Rossart and Aerys to save the innocents, or to save himself and his father? Similarly, did he abandon Cersei because he realized she is a horrible person, or because he realized she cheated on him? 

Obviously, he made the right choices both time, but we don't know if he did it for the 'right reasons' (and I have serious doubts in the case of Cersei).

 

Overall, I seriously doubts that Jaime is the hero as he portrays himself. I think he is rather a person who does things for the sake of the people he loves:

"The things I do for love," he said with loathing.

and that group of people started out with Tyrion and (especially) Cersei and was expanded with Brienne.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

1) Jon is the Commander of the Night's Watch and if he breaks his vows in such a position it might come back to bite his entire organization or tear it apart. This is essentially what happened at the end of ADWD. If he was just a regular member of the NW, I would have no issue with him deserting (as he wanted at the end of AGOT).

2) Jon knows that there is a 'bigger danger' out there, namely the Others, who are probably out to destroy humanity. I think in such a position the truly virtuous thing to do is concentrating on his duty to protect the realm from them even at the expanse of his family. Yes, that's not the conventionally heroic thing to do (and admittedly not what I would probably do in such a position), but that's what makes it virtous.

Right and right.  The Watch has been stewing in quiet chaos since The Fist of The First Men.  Stannis' arrival only worsened the politics and strife between the existing factions.  The introduction of the Wildlings was not all Yay Team Jon.  He's got enemies everywhere within and without as it seems does everyone.  I think it's clear the whole place was ripe for some sort of show down or take over by someone from somewhere.  Ser Patrick alone would have had me plotting poison meals.    

There is a bigger danger I think is lost on some people at the Wall.  For all her flame watching and failed seduction I'm not sure Mel understands what the Others even are, much less the danger they really pose.  Selyse and her goons have no idea.  The brothers who have not encountered the Others or wights can't have a real understanding--it is all still myth to them and maybe the Free Folk who haven't seen.  

Maybe that is the point behind Jon's stabbing by his own men.  To get people off the Wall?  To shut down the Nights Watch in its current form?  Build it back up into what it's really meant to be even if that means a band of outlaws or Wildlings.   Hell, that's what they are now.  Then maybe to let them have their fight so the Others can show themselves and see how far the Nightswatch gets?  I don't know.  I do think this is a pivotal point in NW history and that it will or has to be changed because of this awful thing (many awful things).  We muse a lot about Jon waking, reanimating, whatever, in order to leave his post.  Fine.  What if his waking, reanimating, whatever is about making a bigger change in NW itself?  

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I disagree about this.

Jaime didn't just go the KG because he wants to be a true knight, but also because he believes he can fuck with Cersei there. His motivation was in large part selfish.

The motivation of his 'greatest act' is also intentionally ambiguous. Did he kill Rossart and Aerys to save the innocents, or to save himself and his father? Similarly, did he abandon Cersei because he realized she is a horrible person, or because he realized she cheated on him? 

Obviously, he made the right choices both time, but we don't know if he did it for the 'right reasons' (and I have serious doubts in the case of Cersei).

 

Overall, I seriously doubts that Jaime is the hero as he portrays himself. I think he is rather a person who does things for the sake of the people he loves:

"The things I do for love," he said with loathing.

and that group of people started out with Tyrion and (especially) Cersei and was expanded with Brienne.

Jaime has few qualms about plunging a nation into war.

And, whenever Jaime is called out on his behaviour, he tends to resort to whatabouttery. 

[LongRider]

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

His second biggest issue was that he never employed bodyguards or an escort of any kind

Horse and Rory were with him as  he left the shieldhall.  Seriously, read the book!  It’s in there, they were his escorts.  Why do you think he didn’t feel the fourth knife, they stopped it. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Horse and Rory were with him as  he left the shieldhall.  Seriously, read the book!  It’s in there, they were his escorts.  Why do you think he didn’t feel the fourth knife, they stopped it. 

This! And then the argument will become, “he needed more men around him!”

Like, he’s wrong b/c he doesn’t suspect his brothers of treason? /smh

[LongRider]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

For all her flame watching and failed seduction I'm not sure Mel understands what the Others even are, much less the danger they really pose. 

She’s concerned with ‘The Great Other’ which is the big bad of R’Hllar .