Rewatching HotD

[Lord Varys]

I started rewatching HotD today and want a thread where I can post my thoughts and where others can participate and share their insights if they feel like it.

[Lord Varys]

Can somebody approve this already? Such a thread does make sense.

[Lord Varys]

Rewatching 'Heirs of the Dragon' for the first time after quite a few months have passed the experience was pretty interesting. I did watch on a really big screen, so all the details were more prominent then during my earlier screenings. I must say I very much enjoyed the set decorations, especially the presence of candles and fire(s) in general. The wardrobes of the characters are also pretty great, especially when Viserys and Rhaenyra wear Targaryen colors ... but also the smoke-grey you get sometimes with Alicent and Otto.

Rhaenyra and Alicent's introduction is still pretty fine, and I do enjoy the cake joke as well as the subtle innuendo about Rhaenyra liking her position very much ... while she was effectively lying in Alicent's lap. There are clearly lesbian undertones there.

The first key element in the plot I noticed again as done very nicely was the rivalry between Otto and Daemon. Rhys Ivans body language is very tense during their exchange at the council table and you see how the actor really plays the character in such a way that you can see he cannot keep his composure with Daemon. Rationally Otto must know he should not escalate things in this way, but he cannot really think straight. The entire thing also shows how Viserys I makes a cardinal error working with a royal official in high office who clearly cannot get along with his own brother. That is something he should have avoided ... just as Otto would have been well-advised to not be the royal counsellor whose mind constantly revolves around removing the king's own brother from court. Such people almost always overreach themselves ... and have to pay the price for it. Also, of course, destabilizing the royal family by driving or trying to drive wedges between the king and his family destabilizes the government and is thus a very irresponsible thing to do.

Another layer indicating that Otto is very irrational here is that the council is kind of agreeing with Daemon's results as commander of the City Watch. The council thinks Daemon is effective in his job while Otto fails to recognize Daemon's abilities and refuses to consider using him as an instrument of the Crown.

On the big screen Daemon's rampage through the city looks even worse. That scene simply doesn't work, it gives the impression of a mad rampage where random people are rounded up, beaten, mutilated, and murdered. But that's clearly not how it should have looked. Otto pretending to be concerned about this type of wanton brutality when noblemen butcher each later at a tourney also makes the setting inconsistent. Some violence apparently is sometimes problematic ... but not in other situations which might similar or even worse. Think about it - if noblemen can brutally murder (!) each other in the lists and on the tourney ground and people cheer them on and the royals (Rhaenys and Corlys) have an aloof dialogue about what this kind of decadence means for the times they live in ... then I really don't understand why the Aemond incident is supposed to be a big deal in the show later - while the murders of Joffrey Lonmouth and Vaemond Velaryon are not. That doesn't fit together. The violence people accept - ignore, even - should also seep into the royal family itself. Princes mutilating and killing each other would not be different than the tourney and duel violence we see.

Thinking about Daemon's issues with Otto I noticed that George's idea to start the story with Aemon-Baelon could have worked pretty well to established a broader depiction of royal siblings over three generations. We know Viserys and Daemon really liked each other, especially in their youth, and they would have grown up with Aemon and Baelon looking forward to rule together as King and Hand (like Aenys and Maegor tried and failed), going to the point where Viserys and Daemon said they would do what their uncle and father could not - ruling together - after Baelon was named heir. Only for Viserys to then kind of betray Daemon after he helped to make him king by keeping Otto as Hand and not offering the job to Daemon. The episode doesn't indicate anything of that, but Daemon makes it clear that he would have liked to be Hand because 'the blood of the dragon runs thick' and he would be the only one to defend Viserys even from himself.

When watching Viserys loving conversation with Aemma I realized that in context of that the interpretation of the Viserys-Alicent sex scene later on as marital rape is a bit much. We see Aemma making it clear to her royal husband that they won't have any more children - which, in that context, could imply no more sex (or at least vaginal intercourse). He doesn't object. This certainly means that Alicent could have also established another status quo with Viserys if she had but talked more openly with him about her feelings, desires, etc. She seems to allow herself to be treated as a wife who must please her husband whenever and however he would like without comment. There we would see the difference between the strict patriarchal upbringing of Alicent by Otto compared to Rhaenyra's more liberal upbringing.

I also noticed for the first time that Viserys stays at Aemma's side throughout the entire c-section scene and is so distraught and shaken at the end that he seems to have forgotten all about the son he craved so much. He doesn't have the courage to tell Aemma clearly what they are going to do - and that sucks - but he stays at her side and doesn't leave the room (as an even weaker character might have done, think of Rogar Baratheon).

After that scene the episode breaks down completely and never gets back on track.

We have a first half which takes great effort to introduce Rhaenyra and flesh out her relationship to both her parents, her concern for her mother, and what the birth of a brother might mean for her ... and then we see Rhaenyra not reaction - I repeat: not reacting - to the death of her mother and brother. The bad cut from birthing chamber to funeral is huge mistake, but things get even worse by not actually showing Rhaenyra's state of mind thereafter. We get a council scene, Daemon listening in, Alicent and Otto talking, Alicent and Viserys talking ... but no scene with Rhaenyra. At all. Between the funeral and the intercut dragon cavern/investiture scene.

That is very bad dramaturgy. Rhaenyra is the main character of this show, and the death of her mother and unborn brother is the main event in the first episode. Seeing her reacting to both would have been crucial. Instead we don't see anything from her. We don't see how she reacts to learning about the death of her mother, nor her little brother (stuff that was shot), nor her original grieving scene with Alicent (also shot I think). It could also have been great to see her reacting to things by herself, perhaps in her chambers. The next episode makes a big thing about Viserys being unable to talk to his daughter in her grief thereafter ... yet we never see this silence/inability to talk. That's a big problem.

Instead we get the random succession discussion - which, in this context, makes absolutely no sense. The queen is dead ... but the king can remarry. He is not that old. He suffers from a mysterious illness but it is not life-threatening yet. Otto already makes plan to, perhaps, hook up Viserys with Alicent, so why would he now put forth Rhaenyra as an alternative heir? And if he does it, why not only as a placeholder until the king has fathered a son on a second wife? This comes out of the left field and there should have been more buildup - perhaps by way of Otto, Alicent, and Gwayne being really pissed about Daemon's behavior at the tourney. The entire thing could have also worked much better if Viserys himself were privately playing with the notion of Rhaenyra as his potential successor prior to Baelon's birth and Otto picking up on that. Not necessarily because Daemon was such a loose cannon but because Daemon was his brother and childless. The throne should pass to the next generation, after all.

That would have also better fit with Aemma's weird description of Rhaenyra as a royal womb - as a brotherless princess she would likely be married off to some great lord, not remain as a progenitor of the royal bloodline and thus be no royal womb but a noble womb continuing some other house. The notion that she could somehow continue the royal bloodline still puts her into a pretty important role despite the fact that she isn't the heir.

Rhaenyra's own lack of ambition makes sense. That's not an act. She feels trapped in her role, would like to be more important, knows she will never be male, and never expects to be named heir as a woman. She is genuinely surprised when her father wants to name her heir - and that brings us to the bad intercutting of the two scenes at the end. We should have gotten the cavern scene in full. This is a crucial moment in the entire show and the editing pretty much ruins it. We don't see what Rhaenyra thinks about being named heir nor about the prophecy revelation. Script or editing don't give Milly a chance to react, to answer her father, ask questions of her own, express her feelings. The investiture scene could have bettered that to a point but we just see Rhaenyra as a puppet or pawn standing there, with her body language and facial expression not really giving us any indication how she feels about the whole thing.

Basically I can just say that they crammed way too much material into that episode. It should have ended with Aemma's death, giving us an entire episode from there to the investiture of Rhaenyra as heir. Best acting in that episode would have been Rhys Ivans, Paddy Considine, Emily Carey and Milly Alcock - with Matt Smith having some good scenes as vulnerable Daemon. That they cut his 'heir for a day' speech still strikes me as a mistake.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lord Varys

[$erPounce]

I completely agree with you. You share pretty much the same opinions I had at the time (among others about Daemon's rampage and the tournament)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We have a first half which takes great effort to introduce Rhaenyra and flesh out her relationship to both her parents, her concern for her mother, and what the birth of a brother might mean for her ... and then we see Rhaenyra not reaction - I repeat: not reacting - to the death of her mother and brother. The bad cut from birthing chamber to funeral is huge mistake, but things get even worse by not actually showing Rhaenyra's state of mind thereafter. We get a council scene, Daemon listening in, Alicent and Otto talking, Alicent and Viserys talking ... but no scene with Rhaenyra. At all. Between the funeral and the intercut dragon cavern/investiture scene.That is very bad dramaturgy. Rhaenyra is the main character of this show, and the death of her mother and unborn brother is the main event in the first episode. Seeing her reacting to both would have been crucial. Instead we don't see anything from her. We don't see how she reacts to learning about the death of her mother, nor her little brother (stuff that was shot), nor her original grieving scene with Alicent (also shot I think). It could also have been great to see her reacting to things by herself, perhaps in her chambers. The next episode makes a big thing about Viserys being unable to talk to his daughter in her grief thereafter ... yet we never see this silence/inability to talk. That's a big problem.

A few scenes were originally written that showed how Rhaenyra reacted to the death of her mother and Baelon. However, these were cut (possibly due to time constraints).  Below are these scenes:

- "Back to the tourney we see Corbray, Tully, Tarly and Darklyn knights fight - Darklyn has his head caved in and the Tully is in agony with broken bones. As this happens, Rhaenyra and Alicent turn away from the horror and see a fuss in the royal box. Rhaenyra realizes her mother has died in childbirth. We cut to Viserys on Aemma’s now empty birth bed, and the maester informs him Baelon has died also. Rhaenyra sees and runs away" 
- "Back in the Red Keep, Rhaenyra breaks down in Alicent’s arms" 

Throughout the first season, many scenes were filmed but cut. Even without all those scenes, the average episode of House of the Dragon is already longer than any GOT episode from the first six seasons.

In the first episode, another scene with a private conversation between Viserys I and Daemon was also cut, as well as the scene with the "heir for a day speech" (I don't really think the removal of the latter scene is a problem, as it ensures that the situation remains ambiguous)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Basically I can just say that they crammed way too much material into that episode. It should have ended with Aemma's death, giving us an entire episode from there to the investiture of Rhaenyra as heir. Best acting in that episode would have been Rhys Ivans, Paddy Considine, Emily Carey and Milly Alcock - with Matt Smith having some good scenes as vulnerable Daemon. That they cut his 'heir for a day' speech still strikes me as a mistake.

I agree that the showrunners are cramming too much material into the episode. But that is the case for the entire season. Especially with the second half of the season, I feel that way. The show in general has serious problems with pacing (I experienced the same thing with the The Last of Us show).

Thanks for your posts and I look forward to reading your comments on the next episodes.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It’s curious what they decided to include and what they decided to cut. For all the talk of childbirth scenes, there was a major one they definitely should have adapted: Alicent giving birth to Aegon. We should have seen how Alicent was coping with giving birth for the first time, maybe with Rhaenyra by her side, and then the mix of emotions when she has a boy: Otto smug and proud, Viserys happy and conflicted, Rhaenyra wondering what this all means for her. It also would help make Alicent eventually finding Aegon’s dead body that much more emotional, since we saw how it all began.
 

It also would have been nice to see Helaena delivering the twins, with Alicent holding her and coaching her through it. Both of these scenes would have been more impactful than Joffrey’s birth or Laena’s death, since we hardly knew her.

[$erPounce]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It also would have been nice to see Helaena delivering the twins, with Alicent holding her and coaching her through it. 

I do still see the possibility that in season 2 we will see a scene with Helaena giving birth to Maelor, given that the latter character has not yet been introduced in the show.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

3 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I do still see the possibility that in season 2 we will see a scene with Helaena giving birth to Maelor, given that the latter character has not yet been introduced in the show.

I don't, it seems pretty clear to me that he is already born by the end of season 1. We are done with time jumps and Helaena is not pregnant by the end of season 1. Plus Aegon and Helaena are already shown to have three children in the opening credits.

Given the age gap between the twins and Maelor, he was most likely napping and looked after by his wet nurse in his nursery when we saw the twins playing on the floor next to Helaena.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Thomaerys Velaryon

[Aelwen]

Twins are around 3 so Maelor could be 12-20 months old.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[The Bard of Banefort]

I really think they’re cutting Maelor, but I guess we’ll find out next year.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I really think they’re cutting Maelor, but I guess we’ll find out next year.

Do you think the Blood and Cheese incident will be a choice between Jaehaerys and Jaehaera then ?

"A son for a son" changed into "A child for a child" in the show ? It could work of course but that would be disappointing for book readers that they managed to include everyone except a toddler we only need to see in two or three scenes.

[The Bard of Banefort]

24 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Do you think the Blood and Cheese incident will be a choice between Jaehaerys and Jaehaera then ?

"A son for a son" changed into "A child for a child" in the show ? It could work of course but that would be disappointing for book readers that they managed to include everyone except a toddler we only need to see in two or three scenes.

Yeah, I find that scenario likely. And the showrunners will probably try to make Helaena choosing to save Jaehaerys as her having internalized the patriarchy or whatever. 

[Aelwen]

55 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

"A son for a son" changed into "A child for a child" in the show ? It could work of course but that would be disappointing for book readers that they managed to include everyone except a toddler we only need to see in two or three scenes.

So Maelor will not exist at all?

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I completely agree with you. You share pretty much the same opinions I had at the time (among others about Daemon's rampage and the tournament)

A few scenes were originally written that showed how Rhaenyra reacted to the death of her mother and Baelon. However, these were cut (possibly due to time constraints).  Below are these scenes:

- "Back to the tourney we see Corbray, Tully, Tarly and Darklyn knights fight - Darklyn has his head caved in and the Tully is in agony with broken bones. As this happens, Rhaenyra and Alicent turn away from the horror and see a fuss in the royal box. Rhaenyra realizes her mother has died in childbirth. We cut to Viserys on Aemma’s now empty birth bed, and the maester informs him Baelon has died also. Rhaenyra sees and runs away" 
- "Back in the Red Keep, Rhaenyra breaks down in Alicent’s arms" 

I remember those but I think even with them in there there would have been too little coverage of Rhaenyra's grief. The Alicent scene could have helped if it also expressed that she knows that her father's wish for a son killed her mother. Even after the funeral, the episode as it is feels completely weird when Viserys asks the council where Rhaenyra is - a question the audience would also like to get an answer to - and then we just spent minutes and minutes with other characters.

But the cut from the birth scene to the funeral is just brutal - there would be one or multiple days between them, and it seems obvious that we could have seen scenes around Aemma's bier, a montage of various characters being told what happened, etc. With Alicent being sent to Viserys by her father, Rhaenyra could have been searched out by Laena and Laenor, fleshing them out some more.

15 hours ago, $erPounce said:

In the first episode, another scene with a private conversation between Viserys I and Daemon was also cut, as well as the scene with the "heir for a day speech" (I don't really think the removal of the latter scene is a problem, as it ensures that the situation remains ambiguous)

The reports of that scene said that Daemon's speech expressed genuine grief and was only interpreted as a joke by his drunk buddies. It would have been good to see that to highlight how reports can be used to (intentionally) misconstrue something that happened. I'd have liked to see the prophecy talk between Daemon and Viserys, too, but that's something you don't really miss.

If they moved the 'search for an heir' plot to the next episode then it would have made sense to have this scene there. Viserys' own reasons to choose Rhaenyra as heir are never actually given ... and that could have been a complex thing.

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s curious what they decided to include and what they decided to cut. For all the talk of childbirth scenes, there was a major one they definitely should have adapted: Alicent giving birth to Aegon. We should have seen how Alicent was coping with giving birth for the first time, maybe with Rhaenyra by her side, and then the mix of emotions when she has a boy: Otto smug and proud, Viserys happy and conflicted, Rhaenyra wondering what this all means for her. It also would help make Alicent eventually finding Aegon’s dead body that much more emotional, since we saw how it all began.

That is likely true, I think I'll talk about that more when I rewatch episode 3. I actually do like that the 'the son should be the heir' thing doesn't start immediately with Aegon's birth. In context it seems evident that it was a mistake to skip over both Alicent's wedding and Aegon's birth.

17 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

So Maelor will not exist at all?

Nope, Maelor is in the opening credits of the final episodes of the first season, so chances that he will be cut are about zero. @The Bard of Banefort apparently wishes Maelor would be cut - because she doesn't want to see his death scene. But chances that they actual include both Daeron and Maelor and the twins in the credits while only showing the twins on screen when they don't have actually decided to have both of them in season 2 are about zero.

They are not that unprofessional.

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

So Maelor will not exist at all?

The reason why I think he may have been cut is because he’s still not included on the official family tree on HBO’s website (Daeron is). Seeing as GOT aged Tommen up ten years between seasons 3 and 4 and no one cared, I don’t think anyone will care if there’s an extraneous bloodline in the intro that most people have trouble following anyway (including me, despite knowing the family tree). But there’s no way of knowing either way right now.

Also, if they do change B&C, only book fans will care. Most of the general audience will find a decapitated child horrifying enough on its own.

[Aelwen]

40 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, if they do change B&C, only book fans will care. Most of the general audience will find a decapitated child horrifying enough on its own.

GRRM: here we go again.... 

I think that taking a grimdark fantasy book about dragons, wars, gore and avoiding the most cruel scenes is like taking a Stephen King book and cut out horrors from it. 
 

The showrunner did add a horrible scene of woman being cut, of another being burnt alive by a dragon. I am not sure that dead child woud be worse. 

Besides, they already killed a teenager by a dragon in a horrible manner. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[The Bard of Banefort]

14 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

GRRM: here we go again.... 

I think that taking a grimdark fantasy book about dragons, wars, gore and avoiding the most cruel scenes is like taking a Stephen King book and cut out horrors from it. 
 

The showrunner did add a horrible scene of woman being cut, of another being burnt alive by a dragon. I am not sure that dead child woud be worse. 

Besides, they already killed a teenager by a dragon in a horrible manner. 

Um, okay? All I’m saying is that it’s a change that would only really bother book fans, and we’re a tiny portion of the audience.

[Lord Varys]

On to 'The Rogue Prince':

That episode works much better than the pilot. It is more concise, focusing on two clear plots. But there are considerable issues as well. Half a year has passed yet Rhaenyra being declared the Heir Apparent in a huge ceremony had literally no effects or consequences at all. She still serves as cupbearer at the Small Council and doesn't have a seat there. She has no voice nor does her father have changed her status so that she sits at the table to watch and listen how the Realm is run. Otto Hightower - at that time still 'the Queenmaker' - also has made no attempt to try to prepare Rhaenyra for her future role.

All that undermines what has happened in the previous episode and doesn't reflect that months have passed.

More problematic in this regard is the implication that Viserys and Alicent apparently have regular (daily?) conversations since their first private meeting in the pilot ... but Rhaenyra has no clue about that despite the fact that Viserys only asks Alicent in this very episode to not talk to Rhaenyra about them talking about her. That just makes no sense in light of the fact that Rhaenyra and Alicent are besties. But not only in that light - also simply because they live in the same castle and all see each other. These meetings are not 'secret' as such, so Rhaenyra should have learned about them somehow, possibly even by way of chancing on them in her father's chambers, by way of gossip from servants and KG, etc.

Even weirder is the implication that Otto still sends Alicent to Viserys - they have an established relationship now, and Viserys is the king. Dropping in on him like Alicent did in the pilot was already a risky thing but the idea that she can continue to just visit him whenever she or her father feel she should feels wrong. Viserys would summon her whenever he wanted her to keep him company, not the other way around. If they wanted to show that Alicent was uncomfortable with things it should have been about Viserys calling on her - not her father pushing her to visit him.

Corlys Velaryon really comes across as a guy who isn't the book character at all. His speech about him being a second son selfmade guy feels forced and isn't delivered well. The man accomplished so much he shouldn't be that eager for the throne. And the way Otto treats Corlys also feels like something he wouldn't do - or only if he was truly overreaching himself at that point. Corlys is the most famous man alive, a titan among the living, and Otto is allegedly a learned, scholarly man. He is more likely to befriend Corlys, enjoy his stories from the far corners of the world than antagonize him over trivial issues. I also doesn't like that Corlys and not Rhaenys is the ambitious one there. She is royalty - even more so in the show than the books as the Velaryon-Targaryen link is clearly less pronounced in the show.

Laena's talk about her giving Viserys strong pureblooded Valyrian mixed race children is kind of unintentionally funny. It would be odd talk in general, but this notion that these two families who look distinctly different are 'pureblooded' gives the concept a strange vibe. It gets even more confusing when we learn the Velaryons never were dragonlords, so why is it then great for the Targaryens to intermarry with them? In the book it is clear that it is because Targaryens have married into House Velaryon before.

It also feels kind of weird that Corlys presents his family as a kind of rival Valyrian power to the Targaryens. They are not. They are close allies, always have been, and the present issue is that they represent the female branch of House Targaryen now ... not an independent power. I get it that the show had to introduce them ... but it just feels off.

The Rhaenys-Rhaenyra conversation rubbed me another way this time. I'm sure they didn't want to write it like that, but Rhaenyra is the more mature person there. Rhaenys is concerned with her own loss, with the fact that she lost a popularity contests ... but her case and Rhaenyra's are distinctly different. Rhaenys was never named Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne by a king. And Rhaenyra's take on things there is more accurate. Rhaenys is not wrong about how a brother of Rhaenyra might be viewed ... but the notion that it is meaningless what a Targaryen king decrees is a pretty bad take on her side. Also her bitterness leading her to declare that the men would rather burn the Realm than suffer a female ruler. Worst of all is Rhaenys mocking Rhaenyra's job as cupbearer when that's actually a privileged position, a way a young prince or princess can first watch how the adults are running things, how the king deals with his advisers and lords, etc. Making fun of them really casts the whole thing in a bad light.

Otto again strikes one as a kind of moron. In the pilot he insidiously tries to push Viserys to cut out Baratheon tongues, now he jumps on the chance to drive an even deeper wedge between Viserys and Daemon. It seems all he could think of was to go to Dragonstone and return with another horror story about Daemon's behavior and conduct. And that's also a moment where Viserys is really weak - he should have never allowed Otto to represent him in a struggle with Daemon that could escalate. Otto cannot think straight with the man ... and Daemon would have no problem cutting Otto down. Really funny, though, is Otto's naive approach. He didn't even think about Caraxes, apparently. Unitentionally this also highlights the problem of George's silly setting there, dragon-wise, when Otto prattles on about the commands of King Viserys, etc. when the king doesn't even have a dragon. He couldn't possibly oppose Rhaenys or Daemon or his own daughter if they were facing him on dragonback. And the show raises that issue twice - first when Rhaenyra talks about the king's dragonriders and then later when Caraxes confronts Otto and his guys ... and Syrax's presence immediately puts Rhaenyra in charge over Otto.

This episode really shows in what sense dragons are power ... while also exposing the flaws in George's worldbuilding.

We also see what kind of pompous ass Otto is when he derides Mysaria and any children Daemon and she might have. It is clear where Alicent's strict view of marriage and bastards comes from. This is just asshole behavior, though. One we also saw earlier, in episode 1, when Otto presumed to lecture Daemon about his duties as a husband. Daemon is a royal prince, there were Targaryen kings who practiced polygamy, and in the show setting this clearly didn't fall out of practice. For Viserys and Rhaenyra the theft of Baelon's egg is an issue ... not so much his declaration he is going to take a second wife.

Viserys' quest to find another wife also works very well. It would have been great, though, to see more how Alicent feels about the entire thing. The show as a whole actually fails to tell us how she felt about Viserys, truly. It is clear she didn't hate or dislike him very much ... but we don't know if she wanted to marry him, wanted to be queen, had a crush on somebody else, etc. I understand that the Alicent thing being the surprise of the episode made it harder to explore this - which is the reason why the show needed an episode starting with the wedding and culminating in Aegon's birth. How do we interpret her mending the dragon figure and turning it into a gift for the king? It shows that she insightful and caring ... but is it supposed to have a deeper meaning? I don't know.

This could also have helped to draw out the Criston Cole plot some more. Rhaenyra picking him works fine ... but this feels like something she would have been charged with before she was the Heir Apparent - in her new position this is more a humiliation. Basically, we should have had cupbearer Rhaenyra interrupt the council session back in the pilot - to the irritation of some of the men and the enjoyment/fun of Viserys who should have had her there from the start to learn something. After her investiture she should have had a seat at the council and the pushback from some of the men should have been more about a woman sitting on the council than a young girl making a bold suggestion.

Viserys' later talk with Rhaenyra about her suggestion at the council felt better during the rewatch as his 'You will learn' is something we see she has done later. But it would have been great to see more of that process. If I remember correctly, Milly-Rhaenyra has a weird arc which has her very much in charge in episode 2 only to regress in episodes 3-5. I'll have to rewatch them first, but framing the search for a husband for Rhaenyra as something that undermines her role as heir is something that makes no longer any sense after Viserys confirmed her as heir in episode 3.

Mysaria wasn't that bad in that episode, although it would have been interesting to have a scene with her and Daemon that made it clear what she intended to do now.

[Aelwen]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She still serves as cupbearer at the Small Council and doesn't have a seat there. She has no voice nor does her father have changed her status so that she sits at the table to watch and listen how the Realm is run.

Isn't it the same in the books? she was a little girl there, though.

But Viserys didn't really teach her much in either of stories. Or she was too lazy to learn?

 

Quote

Worst of all is Rhaenys mocking Rhaenyra's job as cupbearer when that's actually a privileged position, a way a young prince or princess can first watch how the adults are running things, how the king deals with his advisers and lords, etc. Making fun of them really casts the whole thing in a bad light.

Worst of all are lack of ladies-in-waiting, the heir is constantly alone. Was it a Covid effect?

And horrible dresses. The heir looked like a merchant's daughter... Rhaenyra in the books: fashionable lady, dressing in red and purple, gems and lace. In the show: pale simple gowns.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Aelwen said:

Isn't it the same in the books? she was a little girl there, though.

In the book she is made Viserys' cupbearer a short time before she is named heir, and she is a young girl at that time, seven if I remember correctly. But it is a huge favor by the king, something courtiers and lords notice andpic catch up on. And afterwards people start to seek her favor. She does have a special, exalted position for a royal princess even before she is named Heir Apparent.

And that is something the show did not properly portray - despite the fact that they apparently tried to do that.

1 hour ago, Aelwen said:

But Viserys didn't really teach her much in either of stories. Or she was too lazy to learn?

We don't see him doing it in either medium, but in the show she did learn. And she clearly is better prepared for her role in the book, too. She cannot handle her losses and, perhaps, also the strain/stress of the war ... but she is much better prepared to rule than Aegon II. Who basically behaves like a caricature of a bad king.

1 hour ago, Aelwen said:

Worst of all are lack of ladies-in-waiting, the heir is constantly alone. Was it a Covid effect?

Could be. Alicent and Rhaenyra should have had some companions in the godswood and sept, and we should more often see her with a coterie of ladies. In episode 2 she should have been with her ladies while assessing the candidates for the Kingsguard.

But it is worse that Alicent later has no ladies around her. She is the queen, after all. She should never be alone.

[Aelwen]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She cannot handle her losses and, perhaps, also the strain/stress of the war ... but she is much better prepared to rule than Aegon II. Who basically behaves like a caricature of a bad king.

I once met a mother who lost one child.... She was unable to work from grief for a several months. I also have a relative who had issues with miscarriages and that really affected her.  I think Rhaenyra and Haelaena's madnesses were shown quite realistically. 
I don't know what person wouldn't suffer mental instability after losing  so much in short period of time. 

Spoiler

I also think that maybe Daemon's book affairs with Mysaria and Nettles were his attempts to deal with grief from losing his sons. Fill the gap with sex and pleasure,  with romance.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen