School shooting in Belgrade, Serbia

[baxus]

This morning there has been a school shooting in one of Belgrade's elementary schools.

Most of the media I'm following are in Serbian, but here's what a quick google search came up with in English - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65468404

So far, what is confirmed is eight children and a security guard dead with one teacher and six more children injured, one of which is critical with gunshot wounds to the head. 

The school in question is not in my neighbourhood but I do have some friends of friends whose children attend that school. Fortunately, all of their children are safe.

It's the first time we've had a school shooting in Belgrade, at least as far as I can remember. And I was growing up in Belgrade in the '90s, where crime was rampant (it's not much better today) and we've had wars all around us and weapons were very easy to get ahold of. It's literally a game-changer for us. I don't remember ever being this shocked.

P.S. Mods, I couldn't find a relevant topic, so please merge this into one if you can find it.

[The Sunland Lord]

I was shocked that the reason for the shooting was because this kid had an 1 (that is F in USA and elsewhere?) in History, so trivial. The kids are under immense pressure to "make it" in life now more than ever, so that one bad grade can push them to the edge.

[baxus]

17 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I was shocked that the reason for the shooting was because this kid had an 1 (that is F in USA and elsewhere?) in History, so trivial. The kids are under immense pressure to "make it" in life now more than ever, so that one bad grade can push them to the edge.

There are a lot of rumours regarding the reasons for kid's actions. I wouldn't put much stock to what I've read so far.

P.S. Yeah, 1 would be an equivalent of F in USA. Our grading system in elementary schools and high schools ranges from 1-5, with 1 being a failing grade, 5 being the best.

[Rhom]

I pray you never lose the feeling of being shocked.

I was a college sophomore in 1997 and was in the early stages of dating a girl that lived in my dorm.  I came in from class one morning and saw her in tears in the hallway.  Her high school had a shooting that morning.  Heath High School Shooting  I'll never forget that look on her face because she knew kids that had been at the prayer meeting.  It wasn't the first school shooting, but it was pre-Columbine and was still relatively unheard of.

Now, I may or may not click on a link when I hear about a shooting.  I hate to admit that.

I hope that your friends' with kids at the school can find peace.

[Corvinus85]

8 hours ago, baxus said:

There are a lot of rumours regarding the reasons for kid's actions. I wouldn't put much stock to what I've read so far.

P.S. Yeah, 1 would be an equivalent of F in USA. Our grading system in elementary schools and high schools ranges from 1-5, with 1 being a failing grade, 5 being the best.

I am so sorry that such a thing has happened in your country and community. I hate to speculate, but out of curiosity does Serbia have exams for students that finish middle-school, so basically 14 year olds, and are they required for entry in high school? (Romania has these, which is why I ask)

[baxus]

So, in order to avoid spreading rumours, I'll share only what police reported on:

• the kid didn't shoot the school up at random; he attacked his own class and had a list of "priorities" who to shoot
• he planned it for a month
• he used his father's gun, that his father had appropriate permits for
• his father took him hunting and to the gun range so the kid had experience with firearms at 13 years old
• to clarify Serbian gun laws a bit - getting a license to own a gun is a bit of a hassle but it's possible; getting a license to carry a gun is almost impossible if you're not in the armed forces
• there was a report of kid being a victim of violence, but I've missed it and am not sure if that was in school or not
• the kid is in custody, his parents have also been detained and questioned about how did the kid obtain the gun and stuff like that

Everything points to kid being a victim of bullying and decided to end it.

Of course, the government is trying to paint the picture of the system working and this kid being a nutcase who snapped and are trying to avoid any responsibility for this so this problem will definitely not be "solved", the best we can hope for is that it goes away.

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I am so sorry that such a thing has happened in your country and community. I hate to speculate, but out of curiosity does Serbia have exams for students that finish middle-school, so basically 14 year olds, and are they required for entry in high school? (Romania has these, which is why I ask)

Yeah, we have those at the end of elementary school which lasts for 8 years, then we have one at the end of high-school so we can graduate and then we have a separate entrance exam for colleges. This kid was in 7th grade though, so that exam was a year off for him. Also, by all reports he had good grades, so I don't think he'd have a problem with that.

12 hours ago, Rhom said:

I hope that your friends' with kids at the school can find peace.

From "reports" I've heard so far, kids are as good as could be expected. One of them did see some of the shooting through the window so I guess some counselling and therapy are in order, but there's no physical injury.

[3CityApache]

What confuses me is that our media report he was new to the class and was bullied in his previous school. So why attack a new one?

[baxus]

Reports here say that he changed class within the same school. Also, the details that have been released do indicate that bullying or whatever hasn't stopped.

There are all kinds of rumours flying around, but friend of a friend has pulled his kid out of this exact class and switched him to another school because of bullying problems. The "funny" thing is that this school is one of the most prestigious public schools in Belgrade and most of us, myself included, naively thought that things like bullying were handled by this school at least if not all schools, instead of sweeping everything under the rug in order to keep up appearances.

[TheLastWolf]

When I was bullied, my father told me to deal with it myself. I'll not go into the details but I wasn't bullied anymore.

But this. Even if gun culture was as prevalent here I couldn't think of anyone going that extreme. What must he have undergone...

22 hours ago, baxus said:

P.S. Mods, I couldn't find a relevant topic, so please merge this into one if you can find it.

Intl Ev

[Knight Of Winter]

To say this is a shock and tragedy is an understatement. School shootings, especially with this many victims, are very rare cases such as this cause collective surprise and shock. Neither Serbia, nor most of its neighboring countries, never had even one such case.

Meanwhile, all the societal actors are acing their part pretty predictably. From what I've heard, opposition parties are blaming the ruling party, ruling party (i.e. president Vucic) is blaming violent videogames and western values (?), while sociologists and psychologists are blaming the society. Whether any of them is capable of analyzing this objectively and without biases in order to come to meaningful conclusions which would help against similar cases in the future - remains to be seen. 

Which leads me to this:

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Of course, the government is trying to paint the picture of the system working and this kid being a nutcase who snapped and are trying to avoid any responsibility for this so this problem will definitely not be "solved", the best we can hope for is that it goes away.

At the risk of being confrontational at this unprecedented time of tragedy, following question needs to be asked sooner or later: if system is the problem, what if could (and should) have done differently in this case? While it's natural - even expected - to be angry and demand punishing the guilty parties (politicians, legislators, security guards, social workers, teachers, journalists etc.) in times such as this, it's much harder to pinpoint exactly where system failed. The way I see it:

- is it the widespread illegal gun ownership? Not in this case, since killer's father had the proper license for the gun in question
- is it the fact that kid was able to access said gun? Undoubtedly so, but it's a gross negligence from the parents - not from the system
- is it that Serbia is violent country with frequent murders? Statistics says no - Serbia's homicide rate is 1.23 per 100,000 people, relatively low and comparable to countries such as UK and France (1.20). US is at 4.96 for reference
- is it that victims of school bullying get little to no support and their pain is swept under the rug? Possibly. While being bullied does not in any way excuse committing mass murder - this is definitely one instance where it's absolutely true that the system failed
- is it faulty system of recognizing and preventing potentially dangerous youths? Except that for killer, nobody ever predicted he could he dangerous in the first place. He had stable and well-off family and good grades, by all accounts. The fact that he snapped and killed 9 people caught everyone by surprise.
- is it really internet and violent video games? I hope nobody is seriously considering this as an option (for one, there's no evidence that violent video games cause violent behavior that I've heard of. For two, countless of other young people are exposed to same internet and same video-games and turn of perfectly fine. And thirdly, nothing suggests that the killer played violent video games in the first place).

I'm asking because it's the most important question right now - not just for Serbia but for everyone else: what can we learn from this in order to make sure such tragedy never happens (again)? If system has failed, how has it failed and what can be done to improve it in this regard?

And this is not me being facetious. @baxus - being Serbian and having the best knowledge and insights into Serbian society here - I'm interested in your thoughts in this matter.

 

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

At the risk of being confrontational at this unprecedented time of tragedy, following question needs to be asked sooner or later: if system is the problem, what if could (and should) have done differently in this case? While it's natural - even expected - to be angry and demand punishing the guilty parties (politicians, legislators, security guards, social workers, teachers, journalists etc.) in times such as this, it's much harder to pinpoint exactly where system failed. The way I see it:

- is it the widespread illegal gun ownership? Not in this case, since killer's father had the proper license for the gun in question

- is it the fact that kid was able to access said gun? Undoubtedly so, but it's a gross negligence from the parents - not from the system

The system regarding legally owned firearms is very flawed, with basically no control over how guns are stored and kept. No one checks up on that, it's all just a "trust me, I'm a responsible gun owner".

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

- is it that victims of school bullying get little to no support and their pain is swept under the rug? Possibly. While being bullied does not in any way excuse committing mass murder - this is definitely one instance where it's absolutely true that the system failed

This is a huge failing of the system. There's reports of school violence and bullying being very common in schools and there's no improvements on the subject. Our legislation regarding duties and rights of teachers and children rights etc. has proven to be very flawed over the years, as well.

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

- is it faulty system of recognizing and preventing potentially dangerous youths? Except that for killer, nobody ever predicted he could he dangerous in the first place. He had stable and well-off family and good grades, by all accounts. The fact that he snapped and killed 9 people caught everyone by surprise.

This kid didn't snap. It's not as if he grabbed a stone in the yard and smashed someone's head in. He planned it for a month or so. He got access to guns, went into school, shot a security guard, moved along, shot some students, got into his classroom and shot the teacher first, then opened fire on his classmates. Somehow, all his preparations went under the radar for both his parents (who I find most responsible in this case) and his teachers. Teachers and/or counsellors definitely need to get some training on this subject, at least to cover the basics. Also, elementary schools in Belgrade can easily have over 1000 students and only 1 psychologist and 1 counsellor (I'm not certain how to translate this title, so I'll leave it at counsellor, as vague as it is) who should tend to these kids needs. That's most definitely not enough, especially considering the society these kids (and even their parents now) are growing up in.

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

- is it really internet and violent video games? I hope nobody is seriously considering this as an option (for one, there's no evidence that violent video games cause violent behavior that I've heard of. For two, countless of other young people are exposed to same internet and same video-games and turn of perfectly fine. And thirdly, nothing suggests that the killer played violent video games in the first place).

This is just a convenient excuse that is likely to fly with less educated and less intelligent members of society, and even with some educated and intelligent members of older generations. It's as ridiculous to link video games to violence as it would be to link some type of music. Still, doesn't stop politicians from doing that in order to cover their asses.

The most ironic thing is that it's the president who's lamenting over violence, after showing all kinds of photos about a major gang's crimes, included but not limited to manner in which they disposed of their victims' bodies. Funny enough, one of the reporters from non-government-controlled media brought that up in a press conference causing the president to actually shut up for a couple of seconds while trying to shape up some sort of an excuse only to fail in doing that and reverting to "you are enemies of this state, trying to undermine and ruin all our hard work" (yeah, that is actually the narrative our government and president are using when talking to press that dare to do their job properly)

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I'm asking because it's the most important question right now - not just for Serbia but for everyone else: what can we learn from this in order to make sure such tragedy never happens (again)? If system has failed, how has it failed and what can be done to improve it in this regard?

First of all, we as parents (I have a four year old daughter) need to pay more attention to our kids. Second, we as a society need to make sure our schools are as safe as possible by increasing funding for education and providing teachers with proper training. After that, we need to examine our laws, not just those regarding firearm ownership, and see how they fit in with the modern world and new challenges that came with it.

[Gorn]

I would say that the unconfirmed bullying is the wrong thing to focus on. Most people get bullied by their peers in their childhood in some way, verbally or physically, to a greater or lesser extent. As callous as it might sound, it is a normal part of growing up. Reacting to it by committing a school massacre is, to put it mildly, not a normal response, but I'm afraid that the society is starting to normalize it by focusing too much on the killer's background and potential reasons.

Sometimes the reason is simply "being an evil fucker", and yes, kids can be evil.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

31 minutes ago, baxus said:

This kid didn't snap.

Not everyone breaks the same way. The response can be immediate or can lead to something premeditated and thoroughly planned out. 

[baxus]

16 minutes ago, Gorn said:

I would say that the unconfirmed bullying is the wrong thing to focus on. Most people get bullied by their peers in their childhood in some way, verbally or physically, to a greater or lesser extent. As callous as it might sound, it is a normal part of growing up. Reacting to it by committing a school massacre is, to put it mildly, not a normal response, but I'm afraid that the society is starting to normalize it by focusing too much on the killer's background and potential reasons.

Sometimes the reason is simply "being an evil fucker", and yes, kids can be evil.

To be perfectly clear, I do think that this kid and his parents should be made an example of. He's already done his deed, there's no prevention in that case, but we do need to do what we can to prevent similar cases in the future. That is why it's important to analyse what the cause was, and what we can do and have to do in order to reduce chances for this happening again.

 

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not everyone breaks the same way. The response can be immediate or can lead to something premeditated and thoroughly planned out. 

Sure, you are not wrong in what you are saying here but that's not what we were talking about.

"Snapping" is, by definition an impulsive response to a current situation. If you attacked me (physically or verbally) and I was taking a beating (again, either physical or verbal) and in an instant I grab a stone or whatever and bash your head in, that's snapping. If you beat me up, I go home and plan my revenge for a month, get my hands on a gun and shoot you that would be a response, that would be me breaking but it would not be me snapping.

[Corvinus85]

https://apnews.com/article/serbia-shooting-school-57a13ad01f4ae2377e6a9bbd88cc652f

So apparently the police said the shooter called police himself.

Quote

The assailant called police himself after the shooting was over. Authorities also received a call reporting the shooting two minutes earlier.

“The child who committed the crime said when he called the police that he shot some people in the school and that … he is a psychopath who needs to calm down,” Milic told state television station RTS. “He said that after committing (the crime) he was caught by fear and panic and funny breathing, and that it was the right thing to call the police and report the event.”

Definitely a failure of the parents and the system.

However, based on this event, I believe even more strongly in gun control. This kid may indeed have psychopathic tendencies, but if he didn't so readily have access to firearms, what would he have done instead? Bring a knife to school? (likely, but his approach would have been different). Try to burn the school down? (possibly, but little chance of doing anything)

[baxus]

Serbia already has rather strict gun laws. The problem is that the kid's father wasn't a responsible gun owner and the kid knew the combination for the safe his father's guns were allegedly stored in.

Still, guns are nothing more than a tool for what he's done. As you said, he might bring a knife or find some other way to cause harm. Or he might turn into a serial killer further down the line and kill way more people. We need to find a way to "upgrade" our system to detect kids in this state of mind and help them out.

EDIT:

I need to point out that I'm all for strict gun control, and who knows how many situations like this we'd have had so far if our gun laws were similar to US 2nd Amendment.

Edited May 4, 2023 by baxus

[Gorn]

I don't think gun control is relevant in this case, Serbia already has very strict gun control laws. The shooter's father was, on paper, the kind of model citizen who could get a gun owning permit pretty much anywhere on the planet other than maybe China.

Bad parenting is the thing we should be looking at the most. It is the job of the parent (not some faceless "system") to talk to their kids, to help them build the kind of psychological resilience that will help them deal with potential bullying, to provide love and to be there for them at home, to channel potential violent impulses to things like sports and hobbies... and to keep them the fuck away from guns.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Gorn

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, baxus said:

Sure, you are not wrong in what you are saying here but that's not what we were talking about.

"Snapping" is, by definition an impulsive response to a current situation. If you attacked me (physically or verbally) and I was taking a beating (again, either physical or verbal) and in an instant I grab a stone or whatever and bash your head in, that's snapping. If you beat me up, I go home and plan my revenge for a month, get my hands on a gun and shoot you that would be a response, that would be me breaking but it would not be me snapping.

Not trying to make this a semantics game, but snapping is a sudden change in personality, not necessarily a sudden behavioral reaction. That's the more common result, but many people snap and then don't take an action for a long time. Even just taking a day to act on the change disproves the notion that it most be immediate. 

Also, if I'm beating you up and you hit me with a rock, that's not snapping, that's self defense. If you then beat me to death with the rock after I'm no longer a threat, that's snapping.

[Gorn]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not trying to make this a semantics game, but snapping is a sudden change in personality, not necessarily a sudden behavioral reaction. That's the more common result, but many people snap and then don't take an action for a long time. Even just taking a day to act on the change disproves the notion that it most be immediate. 

Also, if I'm beating you up and you hit me with a rock, that's not snapping, that's self defense. If you then beat me to death with the rock after I'm no longer a threat, that's snapping.

There's a reason the law makes a difference between first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and manslaughter. The thing that sets the first-degree murder apart from others is premeditation.

[baxus]

28 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Also, if I'm beating you up and you hit me with a rock, that's not snapping, that's self defense. If you then beat me to death with the rock after I'm no longer a threat, that's snapping.

See, if you are beating me up and I kill you, by default I'd be charged with murder. Our laws don't give you a free pass to do whatever in self-defense. If you start beating me and I pull out a gun and shoot and kill you, that would be seen as me going to far by our courts. If I shot you in the leg and disabled you, that would be fine I guess, but simply put you can't bring a gun to a knife fight.

19 minutes ago, Gorn said:

There's a reason the law makes a difference between first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and manslaughter. The thing that sets the first-degree murder apart from others is premeditation.

Exactly this. Every single one of us can find themselves in a situation where we can snap and do something we shouldn't. I hope very few (preferably none) of us could spend a month planning a mass shooting.