School shooting in Belgrade, Serbia

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

42 minutes ago, Gorn said:

There's a reason the law makes a difference between first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and manslaughter. The thing that sets the first-degree murder apart from others is premeditation.

Right, however, that's not exactly applicable here. One crime is punished more severely than the other, but it doesn't speak to the underlying psychology of what can make a person snap.

20 minutes ago, baxus said:

See, if you are beating me up and I kill you, by default I'd be charged with murder. Our laws don't give you a free pass to do whatever in self-defense. If you start beating me and I pull out a gun and shoot and kill you, that would be seen as me going to far by our courts. If I shot you in the leg and disabled you, that would be fine I guess, but simply put you can't bring a gun to a knife fight.

Not necessarily. You could easily get a lower level manslaughter charge. You might even get off here in certain states due to our fucked up laws about self-defense (when in many instances they allow you to actively be the aggressor after a certain point). You can actually shoot someone in many places without being touched and it might result in nothing for you outside of bad press.

Quote

Exactly this. Every single one of us can find themselves in a situation where we can snap and do something we shouldn't. I hope very few (preferably none) of us could spend a month planning a mass shooting.

It's more common than you might think. Thankfully most countries have reasonable gun laws. That we don't federally here in the US is the biggest reason why we experience so many shootings, and in those instances sadly it's better to kill the other person rather than let them tell their side of the story. 

Best and most freest country in the world, right? 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Zorral]

Second mass shooting in Serbia, in two days:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/04/world/europe/serbia-shooting.html

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DUBONA, Serbia — The police in Serbia arrested a suspect early Friday after an overnight hunt for a gunman who killed eight people in a rural area near Belgrade, as the Balkan nation struggled to come to terms with its second mass shooting in two days. ....

President Aleksandar Vucic of Serbia on Friday said he planned to make sweeping changes to the country’s gun regulations that went beyond measures he outlined a day earlier, promising an “almost complete disarmament” of Serbia.

“We’ve been walking around like zombies the last 24 hours, looking for a reason something like this could happen,” Mr. Vucic said in a news conference, explaining his decision to take a stronger stance on gun control. An official three-day mourning period for the earlier shooting began on Friday, and Mr. Vucic announced an additional three days of mourning for the second shooting. ....

 

If a nation's got drug gangs, it's got guns. Guns are never confined to only those who use them deliberately as part of the job, whether cops or other sorts.

The President, the Soccer Hooligans and an Underworld ‘House of Horrors’
A grisly trial in Serbia has raised questions about connections between the country’s top leadership and its violent drug gangs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/magazine/aleksandar-vucic-veljko-belivuk-serbia.html

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.... It is no accident that both Vucic and Belivuk got their start in soccer fan groups [shades of Constantinople and the 6th-7th centuries!]. Perhaps more than anywhere else, soccer stadiums in Serbia are venues for power in its rawest form, a recruiting pool for militias and criminals alike. Stadiums were the crucible of the ethnic nationalism that destroyed Yugoslavia, and those violent emotions shaped Vucic and his contemporaries. Even today, approaching an arena on a game night can feel like walking into a lightning storm. Police officers line the boulevards, and as you get closer, there are teams of militarized police with body armor and shields. Fans sometimes chant slurs that recall those used during the ethnic-cleansing campaigns of the 1990s. Team loyalties take on an almost religious intensity. The chief executive of Red Star Belgrade, the most popular team in Serbia, famously said that Red Star is “not just a football team, it is an ideology, a philosophy and a national symbol. The Red Star is the guardian of Serbian identity and the Orthodox faith.”

Dead football fans gaze out from painted murals all over Belgrade, alongside plaques, statues and other memorials that bear witness to their status as a kind of vox populi. Hooligans were among the first to go off to war in the early 1990s, and it was hooligans who provided the muscle in the movement to bring down the nationalist strongman Slobodan Milosevic a decade later. Ever since, Serbian politicians have feared the stadium and have tried to keep the hooligans on their side.

Talking to Serbian hooligans is not easy. Some are dangerous. Most of the ones I met were taciturn and wary, no doubt in part because of the Belivuk case. After two weeks of searching, a Serbian colleague helped me find what I was looking for: a man who had grown up alongside Vucic in the stadium, and who was willing and able to talk about their common origins. He was a 46-year-old who still refers to himself as a hooligan, though he has a wife and children and rarely gets into brawls anymore. We met in a bar far from his neighborhood, so he wouldn’t be recognized. He spoke on condition that I not identify him, so I will refer to him as B., his first initial. He has a compact body and a shaved head, and as he walked across the bar his gaze was so direct and fearless that I had a feeling he was charging me. We sat down and ordered beers. He talked fast in English, lapsing occasionally into Serbian when he couldn’t find the right word.

B. told me that the stadium was a rare zone of freedom and anonymity in Yugoslavia’s tightly controlled Communist state. It was also a place where, by the late 1980s, you could see the country disintegrating day by day. Young men began forming gangs and bringing baseball bats to games, aping street gang members in the 1979 American film “The Warriors.” The older hooligans told B. and his friends to find a similar group of young men supporting the other main Belgrade team, Partizan, and challenge them to fights “to see who is brave and who is not.” This pipeline is still in place, other Belgrade hooligans told me, and sometimes initiates must “bleed” another member to rise up the ranks before being given “missions.” These may include committing crimes or just beating up a particular rival. ....

Not a coincidence that many of the characters of the acclaimed television Gomorrah series are involved with Serbian gangsters. It's what's going on, in this intersection of political power-rivalry, drug cartels and police throughout Europe.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Zorral

[Corvinus85]

What the hell, are the flood gates opening in Serbia on mass shootings now?

[Zorral]

@Corvinus85 It's the drug gangs that essentially are running Serbia, who also believe Serbia should be the ruler of all territories that include Serb population (which would include, you know, lots if not all of Italy and Spain, as well as other countries, particularly Kosovo). Not political parties but soccer teams, are the gangs ... as the article discusses in detail.

Of course guns are everywhere now.  And we know what happens with them

[Zorral]

‘We Can’t Believe That’s Happening Here’: Serbia Reflects After Shootings
Back-to-back massacres have forced the country, still in mourning, to grapple with its complicated and long gun tradition.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/06/world/europe/serbia-shootings-gun-reckoning.html

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.... Serbia is grappling with a gun issue that has long been poorly addressed, experts say. The nation ranks third in the world for gun ownership along with Montenegro, with an estimated 39 firearms per 100 people, trailing the United States with 121 and Yemen with 53, according to the 2018 Small Arms Survey, a Geneva-based research group. ....

,,,  acknowledged the need for changes. “Something has to be done regarding the guns,” she said. “Otherwise, where will it lead us?”

But she added that guns were so ingrained in their culture that she sometimes tended to forget how dangerous they could be.

Ms. Todorovic said she was in the family’s home garden when the gunman started shooting a few yards away. She said she was not worried at first. “When we heard the gunshots, we thought it was somebody celebrating a birthday.”

 

 

[Mladen]

It's been a rough week here in Serbia and no one is any wiser...

As the society, there will be some tough questions to ask and answer and I honestly can see certain political and intellectual circles being rather evasive about this. It will be the easiest to blame on the "little monster" and his father than to start a nation-wide conversation about violence at schools, psychological health of our children, influences within society etc. The mourning period is over and I am afraid the reaction will be limited towards the child-murderer. The Minister for Education has resigned out of moral responsibility. He won't be missed, like many of his predecessors in the past 30+ years.

I have to say that, despite the horrible, horrible week Serbia had last week, this is not a country where things like this regularly happen. The school shooting is unprecedented in Serbia, and spree killing are not something we regularly see. I think almost a decade passed since the last one. I really can't remember, but someone else might. The closest one was the massacre in Cetinje last year, but that is in Montenegro. 

Now, as for gun culture in Serbia. It is something deeply ingrained in our mindset, but that is to be expected from a country that has had so many wars in the past 100 years, not counting a very long history and numerous struggles throughout it. As any elder in Serbia would say "we had guns displayed in every house and no one was shooting left and right". And before this, Serbia was considered a country of low risk for mass shootings. Again, time will tell whether these were 2 isolated incidents, or whether Serbian society is to be faced with much more sinister problem. I am of two minds with regard to this, but we'll see.

Lastly, @Zorral, while I admit there are some many connections between the current government and several drug lords, the way you phrased it would raise quite a lot of eyebrows here. I have never heard anyone in Serbia claiming any parts of Italy or Spain. As for Kosovo, let's not forget that Serbia is a UN-recognized country with its borders. The fact that some countries like US and EU countries decided to ignore international law, well that's something they share with their pal Putin who is doing the same to Ukraine. But, that's not the point here. Serbia has its issues, that is for certain, but this is not some Wild Wild West.  

 

[Zorral]

 

@Mladen

I was relying on the reportage in the New York Times Magazine, linked to above, which goes in some depth the ideology of irredentism, that not only is driving the putin ilks, was also part of what drove the Serbian wars, and are part of the drug cartel-government connections. That you know more, being a citizen, is to respected.

[Mladen]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:32 PM, Zorral said:

 

@Mladen

I was relying on the reportage in the New York Times Magazine, linked to above, which goes in some depth the ideology of irredentism, that not only is driving the putin ilks, was also part of what drove the Serbian wars, and are part of the drug cartel-government connections. That you know more, being a citizen, is to respected.

If we are going to speak about irredentism, we really have to separate Serbian issue from the likes of Putin. The problem Serbs are facing these days is that throughout the history the term Serb was not pertained to the country or state of Serbia. It was always much wider. For example, Montenegro, throughout its independence (before Yugoslavia) considered itself a "Serb state". That doesn't mean Montenegrin people considered themselves vassals to Belgrade. Au contraire, they considered themselves equal to Serbs in Serbia. Even today, Montenegrin Serbs (which are inseparable from Montenegrins themselves, as two nations share the same DNA. And I mean it literally, because in Montenegro, you have a situation that one brother claims he is Montenegrin and the other is a Serb.) Now, these people lived in unified country (various forms of Yugoslavia) since 1918. It is not about annexation, but more like desire of one nation to live in one country (perhaps the best analogy would be the destruction of Berlin Wall and the union of East and West Germany. )

Now, there is a big difference between the sentiment of people and how politicians play with those emotions. One of the greatest mistakes of Belgrade's intellectual and political elite has always been inability to understand that Belgrade can be the center of Serbs all over the world, but it cannot be Serbian Capitol (The Hunger Games reference ). And the past several political leaders have been claiming they are the "Presidents of Serbs everywhere". Which, in all honesty, is not true, as they can be only presidents to Serbs in Serbia. The discrepancy between how people see the idea of living in one country and how Belgrade's political leadership sees that has been causing problems for the past 3 decades. 

These shootings, I fear, have more with the psychological state of the nation, than some political-sociological issue. As someone wrote today, 90% of murders in Serbia is committed by illegally owned weapons. But, as most doctors, especially mental health experts know, Serbia has an issue with psychological state of both kids and grownups. Three wars, devastated country, economic inflation and the rise of problematic parts of society have all lead to fragile mental state of the nation. I am not saying I expect another thing like this to happen soon, but I do believe that some things need to be addressed. And yes, there is undoubtedly connection between crime organization, corrupt government, culture of violence and what is happening right now. But most importantly, we, as society, need to figure out how to solve this. We'll see how it goes.

[baxus]

 

On 5/6/2023 at 12:47 AM, Zorral said:

@Corvinus85 It's the drug gangs that essentially are running Serbia, who also believe Serbia should be the ruler of all territories that include Serb population (which would include, you know, lots if not all of Italy and Spain, as well as other countries, particularly Kosovo). Not political parties but soccer teams, are the gangs ... as the article discusses in detail.

Of course guns are everywhere now.  And we know what happens with them

Serbia should be a ruler of "lots if not all of Italy and Spain"?     

Though some parts of Serbian population do believe Serbia should include parts of Bosnia and Croatia, Montenegro and Kosovo, this is the first time I've heard of any claim of territories outside of Balkan. Not even the most deranged nationalist politician at the lowest point during the '90s would claim Italy and Spain should fall under Serbian rule.

You really shouldn't believe everything you read, even if it's from NY Times.

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, baxus said:

You really shouldn't believe everything you read,

I shouldn't believe that quoted person didn't say what they are quoted as saying?

Have you never encountered nationalism political movements that demand taking over other territories because so many of 'us' are living there?  Now I'm pretty sure Serbia wouldn't be able to take of Venice, say, despite how many Serbs are living there now, due to being trafficked or other ways of getting there, but there the hype extremists aren't much concerned with realities or fax, as we see every frakin' day, particularly in Russia, the US and the UK.  The numbers of hype extremists remain always a significant portion of the populations, even if not the actual majority.  But, you know, gunz are the great equalizer!

[Knight Of Winter]

Problem with drawing all your knowledge of some subject from one source and one source only - is that you "inherit" all the bad data that this source has, without other sources to cross-check it. Which is to say, this NY Times author doesn't seem particularly knowledgeable about Serbian geopolitcs, or even basic geography (map of Europe, because it's apparently needed here. Find positions of Serbia, Spain and Italy and see how bizzare the idea of Serbia controlling parts of Italy/Spain sounds). Even the most radical and violent of Serb nationalists never had the notion of laying claims of Italian or Spanish territories, nor now nor over millenia ago when Serbia was first founded as a country.

Also, this is the first I've heard of some trafficking operation for transporting Serbs to Venice.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

I shouldn't believe that quoted person didn't say what they are quoted as saying?

Have you never encountered nationalism political movements that demand taking over other territories because so many of 'us' are living there?  Now I'm pretty sure Serbia wouldn't be able to take of Venice, say, despite how many Serbs are living there now, due to being trafficked or other ways of getting there, but there the hype extremists aren't much concerned with realities or fax, as we see every frakin' day, particularly in Russia, the US and the UK.  The numbers of hype extremists remain always a significant portion of the populations, even if not the actual majority.  But, you know, gunz are the great equalizer!

Yeah, I've most definitely encountered those movements, it's just that not "many of us" are living in Italy or Spain. But I guess  I should have known that if you take Gomorrah as a relevant source then there's not much sense in even starting the debate. I just couldn't help myself once I heard that Serbia has pretensions to Italian and Spanish territories for the first time in 40 years I've spent living in Serbia. Must have been living under a rock. 

9 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Even the most radical and violent of Serb nationalists never had the notion of laying claims of Italian or Spanish territories, nor now nor over millenia ago when Serbia was first founded as a country.

It's a good thing @Zorral hasn't come across the saying "Srbija do Tokija" (yet) 

10 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Also, this is the first I've heard of some trafficking operation for transporting Serbs to Venice.

Must be our covert operations agents. You know, prepping everything for a takeover.

[The Sunland Lord]

22 hours ago, Zorral said:

I shouldn't believe that quoted person didn't say what they are quoted as saying?

Have you never encountered nationalism political movements that demand taking over other territories because so many of 'us' are living there?  Now I'm pretty sure Serbia wouldn't be able to take of Venice, say, despite how many Serbs are living there now, due to being trafficked or other ways of getting there, but there the hype extremists aren't much concerned with realities or fax, as we see every frakin' day, particularly in Russia, the US and the UK.  The numbers of hype extremists remain always a significant portion of the populations, even if not the actual majority.  But, you know, gunz are the great equalizer!

No matter how many Serbs live in Venice, they never really thought of taking parts of Italy, or Spain for that matter. As @baxus said not even the biggest fanatics ever claimed that seriously. The article you posted was reaching on that account.
 

Also, the power of Serbian drug/sports fans gangs is exaggerated. They were, during the 90's, a tool of the corrupt government, not the other way around. 

[baxus]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

No matter how many Serbs live in Venice, they never really thought of taking parts of Italy, or Spain for that matter. As @baxus said not even the biggest fanatics ever claimed that seriously.

I don't remember even the biggest fanatics ever claiming that at all, let alone seriously.

There's even a widespread running joke about Serbia expanding beyond its current borders that goes "Srbija do Tokija" which means "Serbia all the way to Tokyo" and no one ever takes that as anything other than a joke.

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Also, the power of Serbian drug/sports fans gangs is exaggerated. They were, during the 90's, a tool of the corrupt government, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, drug gangs and our government are very closely intertwined. Hooligans are just parts of those drug gangs that are used as a tool for the current regime.

Vucic's regime is different in that regard from Milosevic's regime. Milosevic definitely had use for gangs, but his main tool was the police with military in second place. Vucic uses his power to control police and military and has had them do some unlawful stuff but he relies mainly on gang enforcers to do most of the dirty work.

[baxus]

I'm a bit late with this update, but these school shootings have caused quite a reaction in Serbian public. For 3 weeks now, on Fridays at 6PM there's a protest against violence in our society in general.

Here's an article from Reuters, if anyone is interested.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, baxus said:

these school shootings have caused quite a reaction in Serbian public.

From over here we wish you all support and good fortune with changing things.  So far, none of it has done ANYTHING over here.  We just have more and more and more shootings.

[Corvinus85]

9 hours ago, baxus said:

I'm a bit late with this update, but these school shootings have caused quite a reaction in Serbian public. For 3 weeks now, on Fridays at 6PM there's a protest against violence in our society in general.

Here's an article from Reuters, if anyone is interested.

I read somewhere a week ago that the government had instituted a return-your-weapons program with a one month amnesty for anybody possessing them illegally and that over 13k weapons, including grenades and other stuff like that had been turned over by people.

[Padraig]

Including a rocket launcher!

[baxus]

Yeah, and one guy used his rocket launcher on an abandoned train station in Ruma, a small town near Belgrade. He was released from a psychiatric institution a day before, and his first thought was "hey, I know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna take that rocket launcher I have lying around and blow up that building I hate". Makes you think about more than our gun laws.

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, baxus said:

Makes you think about more than our gun laws

While here in the US, it makes one think of that horrific Uvalde, TX middle school massacre from a year ago in which 19 4th grade kids and 2 teachers were murdered, and many others hurt -- and the cops did nothing.  And now, those same cops are all still on the job, doing nothing some more.