Was the alliance, STAB formed for benevolent or malicious reasons?

[Angel Eyes]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only thing the family trees from TWoIaF tell us is that some of the ruling Starks and Lannisters didn't intermarry much with houses from other regions. It doesn't tell us much about what younger sons and daughters did. We do know that there were Baratheon-Lannister matches throughout the Targaryen reign, we know that a daughter of Torrhen Stark married Ronnel Arryn, etc.

Wouldn't surprise me if Royce Baratheon and Loreon Lannister ended up with brides from other great houses, daughters of Kermit Tully, say.

That the current Starks and Lannisters aren't close cousins to any other major house is also more or less necessary for the plot, since any of the players having some flimsy or weak claim to Winterfell, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, etc. should play a role in the plot.

The idea that a setting such as the one we have in the books is unusual doesn't feel right. It is easily possible that some of the great houses got equally close, for a time, after the Conquest, during the reign of Jaehaerys with the many matches arranged by Rhaenys, Visenya, and Alysanne ... and also in the wake of the Dance due to lasting Black or Green affiliations. Another such instance could have been a closeness of crucial houses who participated in the Conquest of Dorne. Ditto with the Blackfyre Rebellions, etc.

One would actually imagine that the War of the Ninepenny Kings is the foundation for a lot of what we see in the main series. It established the friendship between Aerys, Tywin, and Steffon ... and it might be that Rickard Stark participated there, too. Even if he wasn't a part of that, it seems that Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully were, so Steffon's decision to foster Robert with Jon may have the same origin as Hoster's decision to foster Petyr Baelish.

We know the Starks did on occasion since there's a couple connections with the Royces and Blackwoods. Ned has an aunt who married into the Stormlands.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

We know the Starks did on occasion since there's a couple connections with the Royces and Blackwoods. Ned has an aunt who married into the Stormlands.

Yes, that's why I said we didn't know much. We know more about the Starks than the Lannisters since their family tree goes further back ... but we still don't know much. It easily imaginable, for instance, that one of the daughters of Cregan Stark married into a another great house. The eldest could be old enough for Baela and Alyn's eldest son, Loreon Lannister, Royce Baratheon or perhaps Kermit Tully's heir.

Yes, the story of Branda Stark and Benedict Rogers certainly is interesting, but she was Lyarra's sister, from Rodrik's branch of the family - from her doesn't come a strong claim to Winterfell. Assuming she and her husband produced issue that's still living during the main series. So far we have yet many anyone named Rogers ... and it would be odd if such Rogers people didn't gravitate towards Robert and Ned during the Rebellion. But then, certainly, a son or grandson of Branda could have died during Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[James West]

It was going to lead to war.  The Targaryens have the right to protect their rule.  Rickard Stark and his allies were going to challenge the Targaryen monarch.  Their reasons were not benevolent.  Rather those reasons were selfish and only served themselves.  Aerys had his issues but Westeros was peaceful and prosperous.  There was no need to upset the hierarchy.  

I am glad for the plot as much as I despise the Starks and the Baratheons.  Rickard's treason and the aftermath brought Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys to Dragonstone where the future Azor Ahai was born.  Dany needed to be born and raised in Essos to fulfill her prophecy and become Azor Ahai.  

[Vaegon the dragonless]

Was it even really a alliance ?

I get that people see it that way but to me it just does not look like a real alliance. Sure marrying into a family technically means that you are allied, but that did not stop the Frey's to go to the Stark when they were married to the Lannister's, so the idea that just by being married to a house you where bound to hit completely is not exactly true (but maybe mostly). But even then, when you look a it, before the death of half the Starks, they are to be allied with the Tully's and the Baratheon's in mariaged and that is all. The Arryn are only in the picture du to personnal affinity between the Jon, Ned and Robert. Ned is not suppose to inherit and Jon is already quit old, we dont know how the relations where with Jon's heir but most likely not that close, so the Arryn's would be out (since Jon only marries Lysa after the events in King's Landing). So in reality it is more of a STB alliance originaly, but then again, the Tully's and Baratheon are not suppose to have any link between the two of them, exept that they are both "allied" with the Stark's. So it is really just after the fact that the STAB alliance seems to happen, you know when Jon refuse to kill both Ned and Robert because the paranoid tyran on the thrones decided that killing (ok technically "executing") on of is main lords and heir was not enougth, and that he should also have the next in line and the fiance of the girl is son kidnapped who also happen to be one of the main lords of the realm. At that point a SAB alliance is de facto created, only latter the Tully are added by a double mariage. Only the ineptitude of the ruling king created the alliance, it was just a bunch of mariage before that, sure the mariages could be dangerous but since they could have been balanced by a Lannister/Targaryen/Martell bloc with the Tully's actually being in both bloc's well all of a sudden it is no longuer a major threat.

So to answer the question, I dont even think the STAB alliance was even a real thing until the war started, so it was not benevolent or malicious, and marriage or not the mad king would have add most of the realm against him anyway.

[maesternewton]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:37 PM, The hairy bear said:

It's true that there are multiple instigators (Rickard, the Princess of Dorne, Tywin, Hoster,...) and that a conspiracy seems unlikely. But it's also surprising that many houses that up to then had married almost exclusively vassals or Targaryens, suddenly only seem to consider marrying outside his region.

Let's take the Lannisters, for instance. Before this decade, the gentree from AWOIAF shows 11 marriages. Only two of them are outside the West (Rohanne Webber and Emmon Frey), and both are specifically explained as oddities. But then enters Tywin and he tries to marry Cersei to the Targaryens, and Jaime and Tyrion to the Tullys.

It's the same with the Starks, the Martells or the Tullys. It seems that this generation did not even think of marrying their vassals, after having been doing only that in the past.

I mean that's the point, isn't it? That all the Great Houses are suddenly seeking marriages outside their domains, and most importantly, marriages with other great houses. We know marriages in a society such as Westeros, especially among the nobility are not done out of love, but to form alliances.

The Great Houses were forming alliances amongst each other for some unknown reason.

On 5/12/2023 at 2:37 PM, The hairy bear said:

The friendships forged during the War of the Ninepenny Kings is probably the best explanation we have so far, but it's not entirely satisfactory.

Those alliances took place more than a decade after the war, and some of the participants did not participate in the war (at the very least, the Princess of Dorne wasn't there). There's also the fact that this outburst of interregional marriages doesn't seem to have happened after previous conflicts such as the Blackfyre Rebellions or the Dornish Invasion.

The friendships can explain something like Steffon sending Robert to be fostered in the Eyrie or Steffon being Aerys' hand. It doesn't explain all the great lords decide to form marriage alliances with each other. =

On 5/12/2023 at 6:31 PM, Desiring Nectarines said:

I actually see Jon as the main mind here. Jon is the hub around which much of the rest revolves: he's the key point of contact between Robert and Ned and it's that which ends up being the fulcrum of the whole alliance. Hoster is the other one, but he's more opportunist. Rickard just doesn't seem like the mastermind. After all, when Aerys arrested Brandon and accused him of treason by proxy, Rickard just turned up intending to follow proper procedures. If he were the leader of a seditious alliance you'd expect him to call his banners at that point, as Jon did when Aerys later asked him for Bob and Ned's heads, or as Robb (and indeed Renly) do the moment that Ned is arrested.

Indeed, if Rickard really were plotting to bring down the king, wouldn't you expect Brandon to be at least sufficiently aware of this that when Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna he knows to call the banners rather than riding to King's Landing personally like an idiot? 

As to the actual purpose of this hypothetical alliance, there seems to be an assumption that the plan was always to bring down the Targs. But why? There's no particular reason to believe that Rickard or Jon or Hoster or Robert-before-Harrenhal had any particular beef with the Targs. When this was being set up, Aerys was a bit of a kook, but an adequate ruler, and Tywin was still Hand. Aerys's succession was reasonably secure. There was no obvious alternative candidate as king. And Steffon was still in play. In fact there only look like two people who a plot against Aerys would conceivably benefit at this stage, and that's Rhaegar and Tywin. But Rhaegar was in his early teens when most of this was being set up, so is unlikely to be the mastermind. And Tywin is still pinning his hopes on Aerys into the late 270s, and comes late to the intermarriage party, so his actions don't fit with his being a leading conspirator either.

By the time of the tournament of Harrenhal, which is when it starts to become clear for the first time really the extent to which both Aerys and Rhaegar had lost it, and the first time that you would logically expect a plot against the Targs as a whole (rather than anti-Aerys but pro-Rhaegar) to gain traction, most of the key pieces of the puzzle were already in place. Very little happened to shore up the putative alliance after Harrenhal until the outbreak of war proper (at which point we have the rushed marriages of Ned and Jon to the Tully girls).

The idea of a grand anti-Targ conspiracy just doesn't hold up for me: there isn't enough (really, any) evidence, and the motives for the supposed conspirators don't really make sense. 

Rickard is the one who sent Ned to the Eyrie. I don't think Jon specifically asked for Ned to be fostered there. My guess is that Steffon sent Robert to the Eyrie to be fostered due to the friendship they formed during the war of the ninepennys, Rickard took notice and thought it was a good opportunity.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:47 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I think quite a few people want there to be a big, treacherous anti-Targaryen conspiracy so what Aerys did was 'justified'...

Oh, absolutely! It's totally ordinary and not at all bizarre to witness the Great Houses marrying each other. I mean, who wouldn't expect such an everyday occurrence?

And of course, we should definitely avoid any discussions about the potential reasons behind this fascinating phenomenon. Because, you know, anyone who dares to question it must be desperately attempting to rationalize the sheer lunacy of good ol' Aerys. Brilliant reasoning there, folks! It's flawless!

On 5/12/2023 at 7:51 PM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

They conveniently forget that Rhaegar had conspiracy plans of his own, but apparently it's ok when he does it.

Even if the "STAB" conspiracy was canon, it would be an anti-Aerys conspiracy. If Rhaegar hadn't constantly flaked out of his "plans", he probably would have had the support of the larger portion of the kingdom. (I'm talking pre-Harrenhal of course.)

For sure! Because clearly, the whole purpose of this post is to highlight the undeniable truth that only the noble Targaryens, those paragons of inbreeding, are the only ones allowed to concoct elaborate conspiracies against their own kin. No one else in the entire realm is not allowed to do this. Bravo, Rhaegar! Keep up the remarkable work and remind us all of your family's exclusive monopoly on familial treachery.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Oh, absolutely! It's totally ordinary and not at all bizarre to witness the Great Houses marrying each other. I mean, who wouldn't expect such an everyday occurrence?

Yes, I certainly wouldn't expect noble houses of the same rank to marry each other in a feudal setting! Especially when it has happened before! In the same setting!

5 hours ago, maesternewton said:

And of course, we should definitely avoid any discussions about the potential reasons behind this fascinating phenomenon. Because, you know, anyone who dares to question it must be desperately attempting to rationalize the sheer lunacy of good ol' Aerys. Brilliant reasoning there, folks! It's flawless!

No one is saying this and I don't know why you think they are.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

The Great Houses were forming alliances amongst each other for some unknown reason.

Amongst each other... and the Crown.

 

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Rickard is the one who sent Ned to the Eyrie. I don't think Jon specifically asked for Ned to be fostered there. My guess is that Steffon sent Robert to the Eyrie to be fostered due to the friendship they formed during the war of the ninepennys, Rickard took notice and thought it was a good opportunity.

No,  it was accorded that Rickard would send one of his sons there.

According to the app: "He fought for King Jaeharys II in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and, as a result of the alliances made in that war, came to foster Eddard Stark of Winterfell and Robert Baratheon of Storm's End.

 

"

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

8 hours ago, maesternewton said:

And of course, we should definitely avoid any discussions about the potential reasons behind this fascinating phenomenon. Because, you know, anyone who dares to question it must be desperately attempting to rationalize the sheer lunacy of good ol' Aerys. Brilliant reasoning there, folks! It's flawless!

Not a single person has said this.

 

8 hours ago, maesternewton said:

For sure! Because clearly, the whole purpose of this post is to highlight the undeniable truth that only the noble Targaryens, those paragons of inbreeding, are the only ones allowed to concoct elaborate conspiracies against their own kin. No one else in the entire realm is not allowed to do this. Bravo, Rhaegar! Keep up the remarkable work and remind us all of your family's exclusive monopoly on familial treachery.

Ok so this..

Quote

They conveniently forget that Rhaegar had conspiracy plans of his own, but apparently it's ok when he does it.

Even if the "STAB" conspiracy was canon, it would be an anti-Aerys conspiracy. If Rhaegar hadn't constantly flaked out of his "plans", he probably would have had the support of the larger portion of the kingdom. (I'm talking pre-Harrenhal of course.

was in response to this..

Quote

I think quite a few people want there to be a big, treacherous anti-Targaryen conspiracy so what Aerys did was 'justified'..

and not the whole of the post. It offers the suggestion that if this "STAB" conspiracy were canon, Rhaegar probably would have had the support of these already supposed malicious and treacherous houses, if not for his actions at Harrenhal. You know, since he shared their malice and treachery. Hell, the whole realm was ready to carry out an act of treason just to dethrone Aerys.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn