What else was Jaime really supposed to do with Aerys?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

He ironically became both when he slew Aerys, heh

(Yes I know it’s not proven yet but I’m convinced this is going to be a thing)

But honestly, I’m beginning to wish Aerys had succeeded. Tywin and Jaime did far more damage to the realm than Aerys when they brought about the War of the Five Kings with their actions. It seems like killing them off in a grand wildfire explosion, no matter how many others die with them, it would be a better outcome than the one we got. Dorne can blame Aerys for Elia’s death, the power of the Westerlands is broken and Tyrion gets the lordship, Joffrey isn’t born, maybe Varys dies too, Tywin is gone, and think of all the people, smallfolk and noble alike, who would still be alive in a timeline where the WOTFK never happens.

Hrm, that really is an interesting take.  So the loss of 400,000 people in a single event was less awful than the cumulative losses of a war?  (Got that population from @Werthead The Atlas of Ice and Fire.)  Well I guess we all eventually learned to deal with the events of 911 as others all over the world have dealt with their losses.  Wow.  

I'm not playing devill's advocate though it may appear that way.  I don't recall Jamie being particularly gung ho about going to war.  He did his father's bidding. Yes, he was an active participant hell bent on the Lannister goals in this, but this wasn't his idea.  I always took it he would be fine with crippling Ned and having his little brother returned.  Insofar as blame goes in actual events, Dorne can blame Aerys as it was.  He held Elia and the children hostage to Dorne's good behavior and support of the crown in Robert's Rebellion.  Even Lyanna Stark was relatively safe in Dorne.  Seems to me that Elia would have been, too.  Yes, Tywin did these horrible things, but Aerys kept Dorne's people in a very dangerous place knowing what could happen, perhaps including his own mad idea for blowing the capital up.  

I don't the number of casualties during the WOT5K.  Is it close to 400K?  If you go back over the revelations in AGOT, the Lannisters didn't start anything.   I like to blame Cat for snowballing events, but even that isn't accurate.  This all begins with Jon Arryn's death, which we know is frickin Littlefinger's doing.  Everyone else follows like cards in shuffle.  We can play the Tywin did this Aerys did that game all day long.  In the end Tywin showed up for Baratheon.  Whether you and I appreciate the enormous symbolism of offering the dead bodies of royal children to the new rebel king or not, I have to take it as written.  Tywin felt this was the right thing to do for his new king.  And yes, that is oversimplified.  

Even had Aerys lived there was no returning from the land of the lost for him.  He had terrible counselors, Varys  among them.  It is rumored that even Rhaegar recognized that change was badly needed.  In the end Aerys was a very bad king.  That is the chance you take with Targaryens, flip the coin and hope for the best.  

[The hairy bear]

4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

He probably killed him because he wanted to, but it was the right thing to do. He didn't know how far his father's army is into the Red Keep and if someone stopped Jaime (for example a guard with a crossbow) from killing Aerys, he could still give the orders to blow up the city.

It doesn't fly.

Jaime knew the Lannister army had already entered the Red Keep (Aerys himself tells him as much right before he muders him). Jaime and Aerys were alone in the throne room. Jaime was the only person in the whole city allowed to come into the king's presence armed. Rossart was already dead. There's just no realistic way for Aerys to blow up the city at that point.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

If Jaime had not wanted to kill Aerys, he'd have just answered "some men at the courtyard".

There's no need to make up excuses for Jaime when he himself doesn't bother to do it.

Edited May 13, 2023 by The hairy bear

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hrm, that really is an interesting take.  So the loss of 400,000 people in a single event was less awful than the cumulative losses of a war?  (Got that population from @Werthead The Atlas of Ice and Fire.)  Well I guess we all eventually learned to deal with the events of 911 as others all over the world have dealt with their losses.  Wow.  

I'm not playing devill's advocate though it may appear that way.  I don't recall Jamie being particularly gung ho about going to war.  He did his father's bidding. Yes, he was an active participant hell bent on the Lannister goals in this, but this wasn't his idea.  I always took it he would be fine with crippling Ned and having his little brother returned.  Insofar as blame goes in actual events, Dorne can blame Aerys as it was.  He held Elia and the children hostage to Dorne's good behavior and support of the crown in Robert's Rebellion.  Even Lyanna Stark was relatively safe in Dorne.  Seems to me that Elia would have been, too.  Yes, Tywin did these horrible things, but Aerys kept Dorne's people in a very dangerous place knowing what could happen, perhaps including his own mad idea for blowing the capital up.  

I don't the number of casualties during the WOT5K.  Is it close to 400K?  If you go back over the revelations in AGOT, the Lannisters didn't start anything.   I like to blame Cat for snowballing events, but even that isn't accurate.  This all begins with Jon Arryn's death, which we know is frickin Littlefinger's doing.  Everyone else follows like cards in shuffle.  We can play the Tywin did this Aerys did that game all day long.  In the end Tywin showed up for Baratheon.  Whether you and I appreciate the enormous symbolism of offering the dead bodies of royal children to the new rebel king or not, I have to take it as written.  Tywin felt this was the right thing to do for his new king.  And yes, that is oversimplified.  

Even had Aerys lived there was no returning from the land of the lost for him.  He had terrible counselors, Varys  among them.  It is rumored that even Rhaegar recognized that change was badly needed.  In the end Aerys was a very bad king.  That is the chance you take with Targaryens, flip the coin and hope for the best.  

I would imagine that losses from WOT5K run above one million, once you take famine into account.  Cersei and Jaime each bear a lot of the blame for the war.

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

He ironically became both when he slew Aerys, heh

(Yes I know it’s not proven yet but I’m convinced this is going to be a thing)

But honestly, I’m beginning to wish Aerys had succeeded. Tywin and Jaime did far more damage to the realm than Aerys when they brought about the War of the Five Kings with their actions. It seems like killing them off in a grand wildfire explosion, no matter how many others die with them, it would be a better outcome than the one we got. Dorne can blame Aerys for Elia’s death, the power of the Westerlands is broken and Tyrion gets the lordship, Joffrey isn’t born, maybe Varys dies too, Tywin is gone, and think of all the people, smallfolk and noble alike, who would still be alive in a timeline where the WOTFK never happens.

 

 

 

We don't really know what would have followed.

With the Lannister forces and part of Ned's forces - together with Ned (who doesn't have a clear successor, the Northerners would vastly prefer Benjen) and Tywin (who doesn't have a clear successor, power struggle between Tyrion and Cersei) - dead, the rebels are not very strong, and King's Landing - the capital city where both the King and the High Septon resides - is gone. 

The destruction of KL may have resulted in the complete disintegration of the Seven Kingdoms. On the other hand, Jon Arryn may have managed to broker peace between Robert and the Tyrells with a marriage and that would have led to a more stable Seven Kingdoms.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Curled Finger]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:33 AM, SeanF said:

I would imagine that losses from WOT5K run above one million, once you take famine into account.  Cersei and Jaime each bear a lot of the blame for the war.

Good point and I appreciate any number at all.

[James Arryn]

It’s abundantly clear what Jaime should have done:

 

1) kill the pyromancers and just them. He should have had a list of them and their haunts on hand to expedite this part, as well as where all the WF caches were stored, which he could render useless with a basic undergrad degree in chemistry. 

2) take Aerys prisoner and subdue him in such a way that he can neither escape, shout orders to others, call for help, etc. If he’d bothered to do his homework and was too lazy to find a Newton meter he could have studied Aerys’ parents skulls* for thickness to get a better understanding of the precise kg X M2 needed to render him unconscious for the exact amount of time required without killing him. Basic stuff.

3) Ensure that he single-handedly can keep complete control of the throne room/Aerys regardless of who approaches…and really, if he’d bothered to read the novels before acting like we’re all smart enough to do, he’d have known that Ned was next.

4) carried Aerys over his shoulder up to the royal quarters…while not dropping point 3, mind…where he’d defeat Clegane and Lorch and save Rhaegar’s family…you know, do his job? How would he know they’d scale the walls and do that? Again, it’s all in the novels…preparation >>>> reaction, unless you’re just a dumb jock who only cares about looking cool. 
 

5) sat anywhere but the IT and worn any colour but gold. 

*edit, drat, foiled by cremation. Well, he should have just used his chemistry degree to formulate the appropriate sedative.

Edited May 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[John Suburbs]

On 5/11/2023 at 1:06 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Even if Jaime doesn't kill him, there is no way the rebels are letting him live. If Jaime spares him, he at best lives for a few more days. And even if Jaime manages to spare him, he'd still have to incapacitate him somehow so he'd still be breaking his Kingsguard oath anyway. If Jaime does nothing Aerys would most likely try to blow up the city himself once he realised his pyromancers weren't doing it. Either way, Jaime either breaks his Kingsguard oath or breaks his oath as a knight to protect the innocent when they are all killed in a massive Wildfire explosion. I have seen people argue that Jaime should have diagnosed and cared for poor sick Aerys which to be honest I thought was stupid because there are no psychiatric hospitals in Westeros and since when was Jaime a qualified doctor? Also, Aerys knew what he was doing when he gave those orders so people should stop using his 'madness' as an excuse (in my opinion).

Drag him up to a high tower and fling him out the window so they could call it a suicide. And pin the murders of Elia and the children on him while they're at it.

[Lord Varys]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:19 PM, SeanF said:

I don’t condemn him for killing Aerys.  The man committed one enormity after another. And, the rebels would have tortured him to death, had they captured him.

That strikes me as enormously unlikely. Do you think Ned would allow that a king is tortured? I don't even think Robert would want that. Also, with the deposing or trying a king would set a very bad precedent for the monarchy, giving Robert's lords the right to arrest and try him, too, I doubt that Aerys would have been tried and executed. They would have taken him into custody and then they would have clandestinely murdered him.

Aerys would have gone more like Maegor and and Aegon II.

But Tywin would have just had his murder Aerys like they dealt with Elia and the children. The entire point of his intervention was to show Robert he was on their side now - and a crucial piece of this was to take the burden of murdering royals off Robert's back.

Also, of course, no pity with the moron Jaime at all. He joined the KG of a man who was already known as 'Aerys the Mad', a king who had already started to issue ever more cruel sentences and acting ever more paranoid and unhinged since Duskendale. If you want to be Caligula's little bitch - as Jaime did - own it, don't whine or complain. He was in a position to know everything about Aerys as the son of the Hand!

Cersei cunt may be wet and warm and all that ... but she is no excuse for actually thinking before making a lifelong commitment to a madman! In pretty much every book last minute defection of the victorious side in a struggle is a craven and opportunistic thing to do. If Jaime did a great thing, so did Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon when they murdered Aegon II, so did Roose and Walder when they put down Robb, etc.

[sifth]

Could Jamie have arrested him and turn Aerys over to Tywin or the rebels? Seems like a logical thing.