US Politics: #Musky DeSaster

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

The American public may be stupid in a number of ways, but you can't put the debt ceiling on them.  That weaponization and idiocy is entirely on the assholes in DC.

A smarter and more educated people would demand change. Real change, not bullshit slogans. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

A smarter and more educated people would demand change. Real change, not bullshit slogans. 

....K.  Just saying that doesn't really have anything to do with the stupidity of the debt ceiling.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

....K.  Just saying that doesn't really have anything to do with the stupidity of the debt ceiling.

I think it's all intertwined. The debt ceiling is a joke, no argument there. But the public simply doesn't care. And that's the larger problem in my eyes. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think it's all intertwined. The debt ceiling is a joke, no argument there. But the public simply doesn't care. And that's the larger problem in my eyes. 

Sure, the public rolls their eyes at this idiocy and checks out.  That's exactly the problem.

[Kalbear]

51 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Welcome to a society that doesn't watch the news closely or study issues. 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/3640520-less-than-half-of-americans-can-name-all-three-branches-of-government-survey-finds/

It's common to find that a majority of Americans cannot name all three branches of the federal government. To expect them to really understand how the debt ceiling works is just silly. We're a nation of idiots. Why do you think so many Members of Congress are trash? Because dumbasses vote for them or just don't vote at all. 

But freeeeeeeedumb!!!!!

BUT BETTER MESSAGING WILL FIX IT

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sure, the public rolls their eyes at this idiocy and checks out.  That's exactly the problem.

 

5 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

BUT BETTER MESSAGING WILL FIX IT

I want someone to be coldly honest. This whole narrative that the US is the best, most magical place ever insolates people from reality. Like I've said before, living in Buenos Aires didn't feel any different from Minneapolis or LA. I'm sure I'd feel the same if I lived in London or Paris or Berlin for a year. 

We perpetuate this shit because it makes people feel comfortable. I want them to feel uncomfortable, but in a way they won't reject it. Threading that needle is hard.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

We perpetuate this shit because it makes people feel comfortable. I want them to feel uncomfortable, but in a way they won't reject it. Threading that needle is hard.

Hokey doke.  I'm glad you had a good experience in Buenos Aires but it doesn't change the fundamentals of American political behavior.  Could negative messaging work better?  I mean, maybe, the GOP of course does play on the electorate's fears. 

But what you want sounds like what Carter tried with his malaise speech.  That, obviously, didn't work.  Then again, that was over 40 years ago, so perhaps times have changed.  Still, "nothing to fear but fear itself" is a hell of a lot better than "It is a crisis that strikes at the very heart and soul of our national will."  There's definitely a middle ground between the two though, agreed.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Hokey doke.  I'm glad you had a good experience in Buenos Aires but it doesn't change the fundamentals of American political behavior.  Could negative messaging work better?  I mean, maybe, the GOP of course does play on the electorate's fears. 

I wouldn't call it negative massaging. Just not trying to be a lazy bullshit artist and being honest. 

Quote

But what you want sounds like what Carter tried with his malaise speech.  That, obviously, didn't work.  Then again, that was over 40 years ago, so perhaps times have changed.  Still, "nothing to fear but fear itself" is a hell of a lot better than "It is a crisis that strikes at the very heart and soul of our national will."  There's definitely a middle ground between the two though, agreed.

It doesn't need to be pure doom and gloom, but people know things are not well. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, housing, etc., name the subject, people can see shit is falling to pieces if you don't have means. I don't think Sanders' messaging will work well nor do I think his plans are based in reality, but the moderates are not doing any better. There has to be as you said a middle lane and someone with charisma who can drive it. Frankly it shouldn't even be that hard to do, but no one is doing it effectively. 

[The Anti-Targ]

39 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

I want someone to be coldly honest. This whole narrative that the US is the best, most magical place ever insolates people from reality. Like I've said before, living in Buenos Aires didn't feel any different from Minneapolis or LA. I'm sure I'd feel the same if I lived in London or Paris or Berlin for a year. 

We perpetuate this shit because it makes people feel comfortable. I want them to feel uncomfortable, but in a way they won't reject it. Threading that needle is hard.

You mean manifest destiny and American exceptionalism are a myth? Tell me it ain't so.

[karaddin]

5 hours ago, DMC said:

It's either pride or naivete to think you could do significantly better.  The Dems do have their issues, but shitting on them isn't particularly helpful and often isn't warranted.  When it comes to the debt ceiling, they're in an impossible position every goddamned time there's a Dem president and a GOP House.

Either I worded that terribly or you completely misread me, "Why are they so shit at everything." was talking about Gaetz and his shitty hostage analogy that isn't even internally consistent. Its like Ted Cruz quoting Green Eggs and Ham apparently completely ignorant of how that book ends.

[maarsen]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

and yet, yet, so many, are so concerned that 'leftys' are too extreme and we must Do Something! about that for fear of ... what? pissing off the lynchers, mass shooters, stranglers, deniers of climate change, health care, housing and food.  feh.  What a frackin' waste of time.

I was just watching a video on the Civil War and saw the same issues. The North tried to be nice while fighting the South for the first year or so to not aggravate them too much when they lost. Ultimately they realized the only way to win was to show their power and destroy the South as they not willing to compromise on anything. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Biden and Dems need to be out there emphasizing the belief by the batshit MAGA types calling the debt ceiling a hostage situation. Let Americans know what the Republicans think about them. Maybe then the media picks up on it and enough GOPers who think they're not as awful as they are suddenly realize they might be at risk for future elections because some in the party are terrorists...

But you know...

[Gaston de Foix]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

It's either pride or naivete to think you could do significantly better.  The Dems do have their issues, but shitting on them isn't particularly helpful and often isn't warranted.  When it comes to the debt ceiling, they're in an impossible position every goddamned time there's a Dem president and a GOP House.

I think this is broadly right at a strategic level; however, could the Dems have made better tactical decisions? Almost certainly.  Either draw a red line and don't negotiate or negotiate from the get-go.  By drawing a red line and then abandoning it they have given themselves the worst of both worlds.  At the least, you've given the Republicans an easy talking point. 

This is part of the asymmetry problem in US politics that has been bothering me. 

There's this argument about whether the debt ceiling could have been abolished or raised to a sufficiently high number during Biden's first two years.  The detractors point out, correctly, that Sinema and Manchin wouldn't have voted for it in 2022 (almost certainly true in Manchin's case given his deficit-hawkish views).  The Dems did do a whip count in 2022 and Manchin and Sinema rejected it.  

The response is something like it could have been done sub rosa in 2021 when Biden was newly elected and you could have just slipped it in without too much public focus or scrutiny.  Not wholly convincing, but not really possible to dismiss either.  If it was a presidential priority, and a major ask (rather than say ARP or the artist formerly known as BBB), maybe. 

But you know climate change and infrastructure were valid presidential priorities.  Democrats never get around to getting rid of the structural features of American politics that are biased towards Republicans because of the need to get deliverables that can be selling points in the next election, but also because they prioritize the country (and the world's) actual needs before the goal of amassing power, or even creating a level playing field. 

And the structural features keep getting tilted towards the Republicans in the meanwhile.  It's no surprise that a major electoral platform for RDS is a 7-2 Supreme Court.  Thats now, after Roe is gone, after affirmative action will be gone.  His pitch for power is I'm going to aggregate more power. 

And the thing is, it's not impossible to rule out.  Democrats are stupid not to take it seriously because it's not just because of 2024.  It's 2028 and 2032, as well.  Roberts will do everything in his power to be replaced by a Republican.  The SC has been shifting dramatically right every 10-15 years since 1965 or so.    

If Roberts and Sotomayor are replaced by a couple of James Hos, then the Supreme Court will impose a fetal right to life on the country.  They'll dismantle what's left of campaign finance law.  They'll dismantle what's left of the Voting Rights Act.  Meanwhile the filibuster, the debt ceiling, the electoral college, gerrymandering, and extremely repressive voting rights laws will control.

[Fez]

As I said many times last year, Democrats should've at least tried to fix this issue while they had the House. They could've put up a reconciliation bill in the lame duck to just raise/eliminate the debt ceiling and at least force Manchin/Sinema to vote against it on the floor. 

Instead, they did literally nothing and now here we are. It was literally the most predictable thing imaginable.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Instead, they did literally nothing and now here we are. It was literally the most predictable thing imaginable.

The unwillingness to rock the boat and do something must end. 

[Jaxom 1974]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The unwillingness to rock the boat and do something must end. 

This has to go for the media too. Don't make the news, media, but start asking the questions and making the realities of where we are a thing.

"Speaker McCarthy, why is absolutely every reason you're giving for blocking this only brought up when the President is a Democrat? This didn't seem to be an issue during Trump..."

I'm prepared to be sick of all kinds of reporters asking that to McCarthy and every other Republican, and yes, Democrats...

 

Also, side note: Based on what is eventually done...is this final solution what get McCarthy that vote of no confidence...?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Debt celing was always going to be when McCarthy being a hostage to the most deranged bits of his caucus will become obvious.

Problem with those Republicans (and Libertarians) is they really have no interest in governance.

Normal politicians: We need to do this and this, and we need tax income to finance it and keep the country going.

Libertarians: We don't like taxes, something, something free market. If we don't raise taxes, we don't have to deal with the trouble of actually governing. Not our problem.

Those TEA party folks, well, they just want to burn it all down. 

And now any bozo named Bobo (or Gym, or Margie, or whatever name Goerge Santos picks) can call a vote of confidence in the speaker. How is a negotiation going to work there? McCarthy: "Give us what we want, or they will vote me out!"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

This has to go for the media too.

Every time, and I mean every time, a Republican says the vote was rigid must be asked, "What if Obama called and asked a SoS to make up 12k votes, because Trump is on tape doing so."

Every. single. time. 

 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Every time, and I mean every time, a Republican says the vote was rigid must be asked, "What if Obama called and asked a SoS to make up 12k votes, because Trump is on tape doing so."

Every. single. time. 

 

And every time those voters will say "I don't care". 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

And every time those voters will say "I don't care". 

So embarrass them anyways for everyone else to see.