Dating Thread: Hope Springs Eternal

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I just seem to step into it these days. What to do, what to do...

H is in a broken marriage and repeatedly says she wants to meet up with the obvious implication. But then she doesn't when it becomes a reality. I know this is never going to work, however, I still want to give it a shot. Yet at the same time I'm worried I'll end up hurting her, not because of anything I'd do, but because she'll be mad at herself for cheating and I don't really want to encourage it too much, but still...

Sigh, one day I'll find Mrs. Right, or else be stuck in a shotgun marriage with @Madame deVenoge 

[Toth]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

just seem to step into it these days. What to do, what to do...

H is in a broken marriage and repeatedly says she wants to meet up with the obvious implication. But then she doesn't when it becomes a reality. I know this is never going to work, however, I still want to give it a shot. Yet at the same time I'm worried I'll end up hurting her, not because of anything I'd do, but because she'll be mad at herself for cheating and I don't really want to encourage it too much, but still...

How do you keep getting into situations like that?

But seeing how you are clearly being sought after by many women like this, I'm sure some great fit will eventually come up!

 

Meanwhile the only dates I will ever get are these: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856230992573366312/1119938480420696144/20230618_123310.jpg

I mean, I guess I am making a bit more progress on... looking more approachable, what with further practicing mindfulness (a little) and forcing myself to look people more into the eyes and acting... expressive, I guess. As I said before, I was surprised to have not been met with intense annoyance and hostility as I expected, given that this is the reason I've avoided trying to look at people or smile in public for as long as I can. Eventually I want to move it up a notch and see whether I could maybe possibly get into a tiny bit of small talk with a stranger as a personal challenge. Still, already the smiling part feels like I'm massively overstepping boundaries, particularly when it's a woman my age I happen to make eye contact with. So then I usually still balk at the idea and look elsewhere. A few weeks ago I had a scene where I was sitting in the train, dozing a little, when a woman sat down next to me and eventually sneezed. I contemplated for several minutes whether it was appropriate to say 'Bless you' and glanced a little at her, but then she sat up and changed seats. Could be because of the draft in that area, but I couldn't help but wonder for several days whether my one glance at her face made her uncomfortable.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Toth said:

How do you keep getting into situations like that?

But seeing how you are clearly being sought after by many women like this, I'm sure some great fit will eventually come up!

Buddy I've got so many stories I've never told here. Some how I consistently find myself in weird situations.

And I wouldn't say sought after as much as I tend to roll the dice and see what happens, but less so as I get older. I've had a decade of mostly bad luck even if it's produced a number of fun flings. But at the end of the day I just want to find someone who is sweet and serious about a real LTR. 

Quote

Meanwhile the only dates I will ever get are these: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856230992573366312/1119938480420696144/20230618_123310.jpg

I mean, I guess I am making a bit more progress on... looking more approachable, what with further practicing mindfulness (a little) and forcing myself to look people more into the eyes and acting... expressive, I guess. As I said before, I was surprised to have not been met with intense annoyance and hostility as I expected, given that this is the reason I've avoided trying to look at people or smile in public for as long as I can. Eventually I want to move it up a notch and see whether I could maybe possibly get into a tiny bit of small talk with a stranger as a personal challenge. Still, already the smiling part feels like I'm massively overstepping boundaries, particularly when it's a woman my age I happen to make eye contact with. So then I usually still balk at the idea and look elsewhere. A few weeks ago I had a scene where I was sitting in the train, dozing a little, when a woman sat down next to me and eventually sneezed. I contemplated for several minutes whether it was appropriate to say 'Bless you' and glanced a little at her, but then she sat up and changed seats. Could be because of the draft in that area, but I couldn't help but wonder for several days whether my one glance at her face made her uncomfortable.

I've told you this before, but I'll say it again, if you lack confidence, fake it. Most people do. You're way too hard on yourself. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[BigFatCoward]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

I've told you this before, but I'll say it again, if you lack confidence, fake it. Most people do. You're way too hard on yourself. 

@Toth truest thing written on the board. 

[dog-days]

I think some people find it harder to fake confidence than others. Anyone who values truth but also has low self-esteem is going to struggle. 

Not that it's bad advice; more that in the line 'just fake it' the 'just' is out of place. More like 'stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, and fake it'. 

This is from someone who used to get up at 5am to run through workshop presentations three times before breakfast to make sure I'd sound sufficiently confident in the real thing.

Edited June 18, 2023 by dog-days

[Toth]

14 hours ago, dog-days said:

I think some people find it harder to fake confidence than others. Anyone who values truth but also has low self-esteem is going to struggle. 

Not that it's bad advice; more that in the line 'just fake it' the 'just' is out of place. More like 'stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, and fake it'. 

I guess I'm just fearing it would put even more pressure on me to be constantly performing well and not allow a single slip-up. In dating even moreso than when it comes to friendships. I have mentioned it before, but I have made the quite frustrating experience that people really, really don't want to deal with anyone who comes with any kind of baggage. In my three matches I made twice the mistake of very carefully mentioning I'm not good with people, still trying really hard to spin it positively, but both times got extremely negative reactions. Therefore I'm still inclined that take is still absolutely correct. Even if I am working and productive most of the time, only dealing with the occasional bout of intense loneliness throwing me off, every little piece of evidence that I may be mentally unwell and in need of work, would eventually be used to drop me.

Which is pretty much one of my main inhibitors. If I hypothetically meet someone I was interested in, I'd just know they would have countless better guys to choose from and it would be unfair of me to expect them to like a guy who is definitely not easy on the eyes, doesn't know how to express affection, has a terrible work/life-balance, hasn't seen anything of the world, has no friends whatsoever, dislikes sports, has trouble being spontaneous, only comes in a package with his mother, has only solitary nerdy hobbies and reacts disturbed by gifts and compliments. I probably missed a couple more points. I can fake only so much. The moment any of these points comes out, any self-respecting woman will take to the hills. Not that I even get this far, what with my extreme lack of options where to mingle with people given my aversion of forcing myself to go to places I don't feel comfortable to be at.

Or that seeking anything was a good idea in the first place. My second fear of course is my situation with my mother complicating things. She regularly mentions an incident where she met the mother of a former classmate of mine ages ago, crying bitterly about her daughter moving in with her boyfriend and when she was worried about still being able to pay the rent of her apartment, the girl told her to look for a smaller one. She keeps bringing it up as a horrific betrayal of an ungrateful child... and seeing how much that event seems to be on her mind, I just fear that me getting a girlfriend could trigger all kinds of fears in her, causing unnecessary conflict. Which brings me right back to point one, because what self-respecting woman would want to endure such a conflict, particularly for a guy like me?

The third thing is that on top of all the things I am lacking, I also really don't know what I could possibly bring to the table. Unconditional loyalty? Anyone could claim that. A stable income? Sure, but too superficial for the kind of relationship I'd imagine. Something on eye-level, sharing with each other's lives. Just doing things together, new things, old things, sharing in experiences while still having some room for oneself, encouraging each other's ambitions. Which I have also seen people online dismiss as essentially just describing a best friend. Which... I guess I would like to have? I just am completely clueless about this whole romance and sex thing and what little I am observing through the people around me, all those emotions seem to only make them miserable...

[SpaceChampion]

Advice to fake confidence I think is bad.  It might be due to misunderstanding what confidence is.  I think of it (i may have said this before here) as a reasonable assumption that even in you mess up or fail in any way, YOU will survive fine.  Talking awkwardly to people is probably is not going to kill you, destroy your reputation, scar you for life, cause you to lose a limb, have them call the police on you, cost you wealth / freedom / safety, and people won't think you're arrogant for not acting like any of those things would happen.  Faking confidence is doing it for other people (i guess) but having actual confidence is for your self.  So I don't see the point of faking confidence.  Performance is for people who have skills acquired through practise.

Assertiveness is demonstrating to yourself you have confidence.  If you don't work on assertiveness you'll never improve on any of these things.  Assertiveness can be practised. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Knight Of Winter]

I find very practical way to view self-esteem and confidence is as a reputation one has with oneself. If you see a unsuccessful person who is miserable about his problems, but at the same time does nothing about solving this problems, and instead engages in self-deprecating "woe to me" mentality, sooner or later your brain tells you not to think highly of that person. Except that here, you yourself are "that person" you don't think highly about. Hence low self-esteem and problems with confidence.

Best way to avoid this would be to get to fixing your problems, by standards that you yourself set up. @Toth - in your case, all of the issues you list are fixable, at least to a degree. I'm not saying they're easily fixable - in fact some of them will take months or years to get a grip on, but fixing them is a must. For example:

- you don't have any friends? Find some (assuming that is what you want). Social interaction is a skill that can be learned like any other. While going out of your comfort zone will be a hell of a lot uncomfortable and you're bound to make million of social mistakes with slow progress - once you compare this with a lifetime of disappointment, your course of action becomes clear. If you're scared of socializing, be more scared of long-term consequences of not socializing.

- you're afraid what your mom will think about you dating? Well, work on becoming financially independent - and more importantly: emotionally independent from her. Take small incremental steps in that direction.

- you're dissatisfied with how you look? Change the way you look, at least the stuff that can be changed. You can't do anything with regards to e.g. facial structure or height - but you can eat healthily, you can regularly exercise, you can learn to dress well with clothes that fit you. Ask a female relative with help with the last one: average woman has way superior fashion sense than most men.

- you have nerdy solitary hobbies? So what? More people than you think themselves engage in nerdy hobbies. Having nerdy hobbies won't make you unattractive (in fact, should you meet a nerdy woman, in can only be an advantage); but faking not being interested in nerdy stuff or faking being interested in other stuff when you're actually not interested - these signal insecurities which will make you unattractive. Besides, being genuinely passionate about almost anything (nerdy hobbies included) is quite an attractive trait to have: both generally in life and specifically in dating.

Once you start making progress on all of these (and it's not that important how big of a progress it is, as long as it's steady and you put in consistent effort), you'll start to see yourself differently. No longer you'll view yourself as someone whose response to being dissatisfied with life is to wallow in self-pity, but as someone who actively improves in things that you yourself deem as very important. Just as your opinion of somebody else would rise in such a situation, your opinion of yourself will also inevitably rise. Your self esteem is bound to go up. You won't have to fake confidence, it will naturally come in some amount as a result of changes you did.

You also ask what do you have to offer besides steady income? Well, you have a fine job which makes a positive impact on your surroundings. You do have stuff you're passionate about. You seem to be smart and have no glaring personality flaws which would ruin your chances of a successful relationship. Many many men make do with less. In the end, what can kill your dating chances would not be "characteristics A" or "lack of personality trait B" that you have - but this self-deprecating mentality and your (horribly unfounded) bad opinion about yourself.

All of this is coming from someone who was in similar boat as you for a long time and can sympathize with your current mindset. If this internet stranger's opinion is unwelcome, feel free to tell me to shut up with no hard feelings.  

[Toth]

19 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Advice to fake confidence I think is bad.  It might be due to misunderstanding what confidence is.  I think of it (i may have said this before here) as a reasonable assumption that even in you mess up or fail in any way, YOU will survive fine.  Talking awkwardly to people is probably is not going to kill you, destroy your reputation, scar you for life, cause you to lose a limb, have them call the police on you, cost you wealth / freedom / safety, and people won't think you're arrogant for not acting like any of those things would happen.

I mean, people reacting disgusted by someone like me trying to strike up a conversation is already bad enough.^^

And that fear I guess struck me oddly badly today. This morning someone next to me in the train sneezed and then spent the remainder of the trip fighting with their nose, so much so I considered offering a paper tissue as a practice of being considerate to another human being, but then thought nobody would like to accept that from the bag of a stranger, so I kept to myself. On my way home I was then also approached by a former student who asked a few questions about the possibility of me teaching a class of hers next year and some exam procedure and after answering, I disentangled myself rather haphazardly as I was distinctly in after work mode and wanted to avoid us using the same train. Probably looked a bit weird from her perspective. And then while waiting on another connecting train I bumped into a former classmate from primary school of mine that I had occasionally met before because her boyfriend lives in my area. Was quite surprised she greeted me back (after not reacting the last couple of times I greeted her), but still couldn't find it in myself to go to her and strike up a conversation, so she walked past me and took another train car.

All in all an unusually dense amount of encounters, but I guess you get the impression of my usual tendencies. That's the reflexes I'm right now trying to take apart, but obviously with limited success so far.

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I find very practical way to view self-esteem and confidence is as a reputation one has with oneself. If you see a unsuccessful person who is miserable about his problems, but at the same time does nothing about solving this problems, and instead engages in self-deprecating "woe to me" mentality, sooner or later your brain tells you not to think highly of that person.

As much as I am posting these threads when I'm down, my usual self is more focused on just fighting my way through tough spots. I'm telling myself I'm not doing nothing. However, as seen above... yes, it's a very hard problem to solve. And makes every bit of socializing all the more harder. It is damn difficult to make friends when you don't have friends, as you will be a stranger and foreign object in every interaction. I am financially independent from my mother, but she isn't from me, which is at the core of the whole issue and will never ever change. My issues about my looks are mostly with the stuff I can't change. On top of that I have extreme issues getting muscles feel really bad doing sports, so "getting jacked" isn't an option. Advice from a woman for my dress-code also isn't possible. Again, I don't know anything and have no relatives I'm on speaking terms with. The hobbies part... well, no. I made quite distinct experiences that people will immediately go blank and disentangle themselves from a conversation when I start rambling about an interest they don't share. But mostly I guess it's the overall package and that I should give off the impression that I'm a hassle to deal with the moment I let any of my insecurities show (something I obviously try to avoid).

Though back to the topic at had, I also have to add another surprising encounter after all these weeks: Another match! Which I guess could strike me pessimistic as it means my profile is still shown and the deafening silence is rather a result of literally nobody being interested. The only issue now is that this match is either a catfish or naturally not really interested and replied to me earlier just out of obligation. Very curtly and then went immediately offline again. I suppose that could mean it's not a catfish because those I imagine to be slightly more responsive, but on the other hand it's another bored Chinese expat with an empty profile, but even drastically out of my league by an insanely large margin than the first one I had my non-date two years ago with. Still couldn't find any of the pictures through reverse picture searches... and yeah, the disinterest also seems counter-intuitive for a scammer... but still, the photos are just odd...

[mcbigski]

12 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I find very practical way to view self-esteem and confidence is as a reputation one has with oneself. If you see a unsuccessful person who is miserable about his problems, but at the same time does nothing about solving this problems, and instead engages in self-deprecating "woe to me" mentality, sooner or later your brain tells you not to think highly of that person. Except that here, you yourself are "that person" you don't think highly about. Hence low self-esteem and problems with confidence.

Best way to avoid this would be to get to fixing your problems, by standards that you yourself set up. @Toth - in your case, all of the issues you list are fixable, at least to a degree. I'm not saying they're easily fixable - in fact some of them will take months or years to get a grip on, but fixing them is a must. For example:

- you don't have any friends? Find some (assuming that is what you want). Social interaction is a skill that can be learned like any other. While going out of your comfort zone will be a hell of a lot uncomfortable and you're bound to make million of social mistakes with slow progress - once you compare this with a lifetime of disappointment, your course of action becomes clear. If you're scared of socializing, be more scared of long-term consequences of not socializing.

- you're afraid what your mom will think about you dating? Well, work on becoming financially independent - and more importantly: emotionally independent from her. Take small incremental steps in that direction.

- you're dissatisfied with how you look? Change the way you look, at least the stuff that can be changed. You can't do anything with regards to e.g. facial structure or height - but you can eat healthily, you can regularly exercise, you can learn to dress well with clothes that fit you. Ask a female relative with help with the last one: average woman has way superior fashion sense than most men.

- you have nerdy solitary hobbies? So what? More people than you think themselves engage in nerdy hobbies. Having nerdy hobbies won't make you unattractive (in fact, should you meet a nerdy woman, in can only be an advantage); but faking not being interested in nerdy stuff or faking being interested in other stuff when you're actually not interested - these signal insecurities which will make you unattractive. Besides, being genuinely passionate about almost anything (nerdy hobbies included) is quite an attractive trait to have: both generally in life and specifically in dating.

Once you start making progress on all of these (and it's not that important how big of a progress it is, as long as it's steady and you put in consistent effort), you'll start to see yourself differently. No longer you'll view yourself as someone whose response to being dissatisfied with life is to wallow in self-pity, but as someone who actively improves in things that you yourself deem as very important. Just as your opinion of somebody else would rise in such a situation, your opinion of yourself will also inevitably rise. Your self esteem is bound to go up. You won't have to fake confidence, it will naturally come in some amount as a result of changes you did.

You also ask what do you have to offer besides steady income? Well, you have a fine job which makes a positive impact on your surroundings. You do have stuff you're passionate about. You seem to be smart and have no glaring personality flaws which would ruin your chances of a successful relationship. Many many men make do with less. In the end, what can kill your dating chances would not be "characteristics A" or "lack of personality trait B" that you have - but this self-deprecating mentality and your (horribly unfounded) bad opinion about yourself.

All of this is coming from someone who was in similar boat as you for a long time and can sympathize with your current mindset. If this internet stranger's opinion is unwelcome, feel free to tell me to shut up with no hard feelings.  

^All that^

Also, start training with barbells.  Apart from potentially improving your appearance, which it likely should, getting stronger is an immense benefit on its own.  We all bounce around in meat space, and strength is very high utility.  It's pretty easy actually to set up a positive feedback loop where strength training helps you navigate the world better, feel better, look better, and not fake confidence but actually gain it, because you're putting the work in to improve yourself. "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe is a very solid guide for the novice that wants a reasonable path to physical self improvement.  I've found it very helpful.  I'm stronger at 50 than I've ever been, and my back feels better too.  

 

[dog-days]

17 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

- you're dissatisfied with how you look? Change the way you look, at least the stuff that can be changed. You can't do anything with regards to e.g. facial structure or height - but you can eat healthily, you can regularly exercise, you can learn to dress well with clothes that fit you. Ask a female relative with help with the last one: average woman has way superior fashion sense than most men.

 

Like most of the post but this is bullshit. 

Women don't have a superior fashion sense to men, any more than they have a second sight that helps them locate dirt on dishes or a psychic bond with the vacuum cleaner. 

Women (in general, with plenty of exceptions) dress more elaborately than men and spend more time thinking about what they wear and how they look because they know that's what's expected/required of them. 

Men are also perfectly capable of learning to dress themselves to gain societal approval, if it wasn't considered unmanly to do so and something that should be left to women. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by dog-days

[Toth]

I must admit, I really, really hate this "Just get jacked!" being the go-to recommendation for men struggling with confidence. Yes, I know I'm bad at making the time for my training regimen and yes, maybe it's just an excuse because I found all my sports-related experiences traumatic, getting relentlessly bullied in changing rooms and taking constant shit from my father about what a weak disappointment I am. But I still think I'm reasonably fit at the moment and don't need to waste soooo much time that I don't have and money to become a muscle head to feel better about myself. And I also think it wouldn't change a fucking anything about me being ugly and short and socially awkward. Holy shit, there is more about life than spending hours sitting in other people's stink to push metal thingies like Sisyphus until you can't anymore...

In other news, I... got a third response of that new match in as many days. And I specifically say response, not reply, because it feels very much like pulling teeth with how little she's engaging with my questions and worry I'm starting to come off as interrogating her because right now I still don't know any more than before about what her interests are, what she's doing for a living, not even what languages she's speaking. I suspect she got herself 500 matches and is sifting through all of them and I'm very surprised I'm not yet unmatched or ghosted, but at this point this also feels very silly.^^

Anyway, gotta go jogging now before the heat gets too oppressive.

Edit: She responded again, this time even more blatantly dodging my question about what languages she speaks by repeating "English is fine". I immediately went in after getting the notification, typed a reply, but she went offline before I could send it. Lol, that's a first for me. Unfortunately I'm also extremely busy, so I guess can mostly laugh about it. In my reply I joked about now pulling out the job application questions before putting out a barrage of them. At this point I'm just curious how little she will manage to dodge those.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Toth

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

The Doctor has managed to piss me off. One does not refer to me as “broke”. Yes, I maybe have less in the bank than he does, but there are many reasons why I don’t have all the money that he does, starting with….

1. I haven’t made $500k/ year for a number of years, as he has.

2. Haven’t done the above while living in a cheap rental cave of a condo or a 600 square foot guest house of a house that is caving in and only valuable because of the land. (He bought a house for $200k back in the 90s and let it fall apart while living in the guest cottage. He sold the whole shebang for $1 million for the land value - all had to be demolished).

3. I’ve spent much of my adult life supporting dependents - he has not.

4. I’ve had significant medical expenses; he has not.

I’m going to give him hell the next time he jokes that I am broke. He can really go fuck himself and it’s a deal breaker if he continues in that manner.

 

That's pretty fucked up. I get being frustrated at having to support someone for a long time (been there a few times), but you're in the top 5% of average earners. Seems mean spirited. Might be best to just tell him now how it hurt you.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Pretty tone deaf of doctor.  And, I should add, you weren’t getting remunerated appropriately at the last shop so, you know what you did?  You found a better position.  He can shove it.  Hopefully he just didn’t understand and it wasn’t mean spirited.

[IheartIheartTesla]

I think all of us who have outstanding mortgages are technically broke by some definition of the other. Not privy to what the good Doctor's views are on debt/personal responsibility when it comes to finances etc. Some people get very worked up by such matters; myself having been a broke graduate student at some point and now in a fairly comfortable position am quite relaxed when it comes to judging others.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Yeah, he gets a little cannabis in him and he thinks he’s a comedian  I don’t think he’s mean spirited, I think he REALLY thinks he’s funny.

I’ve never indicated that we should get closer so that he could support me financially (ugh, last thing I would want!!) and I kinda feel your pain, there, @Tywin et al. - hell, I’m not only paying my kid’s living expenses, and have been for 4 years directly (him living with me) and 12 years (post divorce to the ex, then rent in college) indirectly, I’m paying off $140k in his student loans. Not like Doctor has done that for someone else. He pays a minimal amount to his kid’s mom.

And I can still Pay My Own Way, which is what *I* would be concerned about.

I've never had to pay anything like that. A few GFs in HS didn't have jobs, my ex-fiancé sometimes made a little, sometimes a lot because she did freelance modeling and was a pet sitter so now and then needed help with the bills and like a lot of us as adults I've dated some people who were in between jobs. It happens. The resent starts to kick in when it's clear they have no plan. And it's fine if the plan is I just need a month or two to feel positive and then attack the job hunt. It's why in our private conversations I've said it wouldn't be the end of the world to resign without a job firmly locked up and I'd like to think the Doc would have been cool with it.

All that said, you should never make your partner feel bad about what they make unless they're a complete deadbeat (stay at home parents don't apply here), and at that point you probably should consider moving on unless you're in a really long, committed relationship. Doc was way out of line. Without discussing too much private info you make a lot of money and like you said, you've been paying pretty much all of your son's bills (put him out on the corner so he can make you some money ). He was disrespectful and it's hard to understand why. I wouldn't let that slide. Tell him why it hurt you if you didn't already do so. Hopefully he understands. 

[VigoTheCarpathian]

1 hour ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Yeah, he gets a little cannabis in him and he thinks he’s a comedian  I don’t think he’s mean spirited, I think he REALLY thinks he’s funny.

It does sound like a bad attempt at humor, not a judgement, and agree on letting him know “hey, mr. chuckles, circumstances are extremely different for us and i feel like you’re making a statement about my worth and work ethic when you said that.  Your rich ass is first against the wall when I lead the prole uprising”.

I know I’m self-conscious about being relatively well-of: we live in a wealthy area, but have to sometimes bite my tongue on the self deprecation (it’s how I poke fun at the fact that my problems aren’t any where near those of my poorer relatives).   Our kids have friends who go skiing on spring break and winter in the tropics, and we can’t afford that, so I’ve let slip “sorry, we’re the poors in this neighborhood, kiddos”. I still have to have repeated long conversations with about relative wealth, happiness, and envy, and how my upbringing made me uncomfortable with money and very likely to joke about it because I’m scared to lose it.

 

[BigFatCoward]

Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

31 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

Remember we do have high-up consultants who’ll massively supplement earnings by doing private work. Not sure what happens now, but sone doctors also worked on call as police casualty surgeons, ie got called out to examine prisoners if there weere doubts over them being medically fit for detention. 
Some might also work with universities or consult with big pharna firms.

The medical supply company reps used to run ‘training days’ for my wife and the other nurses in her dept. These training sessions generally took place on a Friday or Saturday night in a restaurant and pub, and was essentially a free meal and bar. It stopped in oart due to covid and in oart brcause one night they utterly ripped the pish out of it.

If these companies are doing that for thr ‘pleb’ nurses, I can only wonder what ‘training sessions’ they’re running for the highers-up who directly influence what medical gear is ordered.

 

[IheartIheartTesla]

500k is hardly average for a doctor in the US, and if you compare general practitioners there is perhaps a more reasonable comparison to be made between the two countries, Once you get into specialists the disparity may be become more for certain areas (particularly the cosmetic ones).