Dating Thread: Hope Springs Eternal

[Mlle. Zabzie]

8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

I’m about to say something stupidly American, but I’ve decided to say it anyway.  I don’t like this “you go into [FIELD X] because of a vocation [and not for money] argument.  I have three reasons:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

2.  These professions are either historically or increasingly female. (BTW, emergency services, including police, work also is a big social value add if done correctly, but at least in the states I don’t hear the same malarkey about having a “calling” or a “vocation”).

3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

[BigFatCoward]

42 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I’m about to say something stupidly American, but I’ve decided to say it anyway.  I don’t like this “you go into [FIELD X] because of a vocation [and not for money] argument.  I have three reasons:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

2.  These professions are either historically or increasingly female. (BTW, emergency services, including police, work also is a big social value add if done correctly, but at least in the states I don’t hear the same malarkey about having a “calling” or a “vocation”).

3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

I have no problem with people being very well rewarded for vocational work. But 500 k is stupid. You are either rinsing the customer (US) or overly burdening state provision at that level of salary (everywhere with social healthcare). 

If you pay too much for vocational work you get people attracted by the salary, not the societal benefit, and I don't want those people working for the NHS, teaching, police etc. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

Save the whales! And the snails! 

Idk if doctors need to make more, but nurses sure do as well as teachers and generally most public servants. Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

Quote

3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

Most doctors don't actually make life or death decisions. And having worked at a hospital for seven years I can tell you a lot of them are extremely incompetent at very basic shit then get pissed when you have to teach them it. Typically they get resentful and don't follow instructions so we have to bill their department while they still get paid. That's a major reason why hospital bills in general are so massive, infighting between departments gets passed along to insurance who won't pay and the patients eat it.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Save the whales! And the snails! 

Idk know if doctors need to make more, but nurses sure as shit do as well as teachers and generally most public servants. Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

Most doctors don't actually make life or death decisions. And having worked at a hospital for seven years I can tell you a lot of them are extremely incompetent at very basic shit then get pissed when you have to teach them it. Typically they get resentful and don't follow instructions so we have to bill their department while they still get paid. That's a major reason why hospital bills in general are so massive, infighting between departments gets passed along to insurance who won't pay it and the patients eat the bills. 

I have a good friend who is a (competent) cardiologist.  She would tell you the same about life or death.  I made the point that even if it is a 1% risk, I live in a very different world.

Also, I hear you a bit on basic shit but also I think some of that is just the way your hospital system has built teams and incentives and/or the way insurance has set up rules and practices.  It doesn’t 100% mean they are incompetent.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I have a good friend who is a (competent) cardiologist.  She would tell you the same about life or death.  I made the point that even if it is a 1% risk, I live in a very different world.

Eh, I would feel the same way about getting a competent criminal defense attorney who could keep me out of jail. I trash lawyers, but when you need a good one you really need one. Same goes for doctors. Problem is if you can't pay for one you get what you get.

Quote

Also, I hear you a bit on basic shit but also I think some of that is just the way your hospital system has built teams and incentives and/or the way insurance has set up rules and practices.  It doesn’t 100% mean they are incompetent.

I work for a hospital that's ranked top 100 in country. And they can't get really simple shit right. Just for example, you have to fax documents over to other departments and on the website they don't have the right number and people working there don't know what the correct one is. It's that level of just not caring. I've had to contact people at the Mayo Clinic and get transferred around only to be back to the same person I first spoke to. People really underestimate how common this is at the best hospitals. I can't imagine what it's like and bad ones (well I can, but thankfully I rarely interact with them). And this plays a major role in why everything is so expensive. Most things cost a fraction of what insurances are billed for, they have a million outs of paying it and then good luck to the patient. And that's where I come in and try to save them as much as I can or just get them out of it. The entire system is fucked, but that's for another thread. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Eh, I would feel the same way about getting a competent criminal defense attorney who could keep me out of jail. I trash lawyers, but when you need a good one you really need one. Same goes for doctors. Problem is if you can't pay for one you get what you get.

I work for a hospital that's ranked top 100 in country. And they can't get really simple shit right. Just for example, you have to fax documents over to other departments and on the website they don't have the right number and people working there don't know what the correct one is. It's that level of just not caring. I've had to contact people at the Mayo Clinic and get transferred around only to be back to the same person I first spoke to. People really underestimate how common this is at the best hospitals. I can't imagine what it's like and bad ones (well I can, but thankfully I rarely interact with them). And this plays a major role in why everything is so expensive. Most things cost a fraction of what insurances are billed for, they have a million outs of paying it and then good luck to the patient. And that's where I come in and try to save them as much as I can or just get them out of it. The entire system is fucked, but that's for another thread. 

OMG, I thought the IRS was the only institution that still used fax.

And yes, agree on the system (and that it is not for the thread de romance).

[BigFatCoward]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

 

I don't think they should be paid more to attract better people as I don't think it would. But so you can say that's your very generous salary, no outside interests.

I think it's the most bizarre thing in the world how we allow our politicians to be beholden to people paying for influence. 

Imagine if I started taking backhanded from drug dealers, and everyone said 'fair enough'? 

Edited June 26, 2023 by BigFatCoward

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I don't think they should be paid more to attract better people as I don't think it would. But so you can say that's your very generous salary, no outside interests.

I think it's the most bizarre thing in the world how we allow our politicians to be beholden to people paying for influence. 

Imagine if I started taking backhanded from drug dealers, and everyone said 'fair enough'? 

Eh, you don't? 

[BigFatCoward]

19 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Eh, you don't? 

I'm not Vic Mackey. More of a Lem,  corrupt with a conscience. 

[Raja]

Obviously I have thoughts about payment for physicians, nurses etc

1. Vocation - Unfortunately, my job being a vocation doesn't pay my rent, the people I support, or the costs associated with training as a doctor, especially if you're significantly in debt. At least here in the UK, I feel like the job being deemed a vocation has kept our pay down to a large extent over the last couple of decades.

2. As to what the compensation for a doctors - some places, like the US & Canada have different salaries depending on what speacialty you practice. To me, the disparity shouldn't exist as your incentives to train in a speaciality can change where you're doing it because it offers you the fastest way to pay off your med school debt. The debt sums are enormous though so I can absolutely understand people doing that.

3. A lot of the US system is geared towards making money - In a lot of cases, the various stakeholders in a health system are geared towards making money, as opposed to doing the best thing for a patient. This includes insurance companies, health systems & even doctors. Insurance companies are particularly guilty of this, and there are countless examples of it happening everywhere for all sorts of different things ( surprise medical bills, prior authrization). Health systems, even not for profit health system, will take tax exemptions and not provide their 'community benefit' or run from providing care to people that do not have insurance.

Doctors get in on it because with some specialities the more procedures you do, the more you can charge & the more you can earn. Sometimes people get procedures that are not indicated or scans that are not needed in this fee for service model, even though in large parts of the US people are moving away from fee for service models.

None of this is to say that you canoot receive good medical care, you certainly can and people do, but the population as a whole suffers because of the way the system is geared.

4. 'Saving lives' - I shy away from describing the job like that but some specialities do literally do this, especially the big ones like Emergency Medicine, Surgery, Medicine ( this includes Cardiology), Obstetric & Paediatrics. Cardiologists literally perform life saving interventions ( PCI - stenting coronary arteries) on patients that get heart attacks. But it seems a bit..pompus to go about saying 'I save lives'.

None of this has anything to do with dating so.....Sorry!

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Raja

[mcbigski]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:19 PM, Tywin et al. said:

That's pretty fucked up. I get being frustrated at having to support someone for a long time (been there a few times), but you're in the top 5% of average earners. Seems mean spirited. Might be best to just tell him now how it hurt you.

It's endearing that you're trying to sweet talk your future sugar momma.  Or possibly mercenary. 

On 6/25/2023 at 3:35 AM, Toth said:

I must admit, I really, really hate this "Just get jacked!" being the go-to recommendation for men struggling with confidence. Yes, I know I'm bad at making the time for my training regimen and yes, maybe it's just an excuse because I found all my sports-related experiences traumatic, getting relentlessly bullied in changing rooms and taking constant shit from my father about what a weak disappointment I am. But I still think I'm reasonably fit at the moment and don't need to waste soooo much time that I don't have and money to become a muscle head to feel better about myself. And I also think it wouldn't change a fucking anything about me being ugly and short and socially awkward. Holy shit, there is more about life than spending hours sitting in other people's stink to push metal thingies like Sisyphus until you can't anymore...

Think of it more as a video game concept and you're levelling up.  Pretty sure I suggested getting stronger, not more jacked as well. Obviously one gets  larger as one gets stronger, but there are different optimizations for body building versus strength training.  And there's a virtuous feed back loop in strength training that doesn't have the same body image issues that body building does.  If running gets you there instead, that's great, but personally I detest cardio in most forms.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

It's endearing that you're trying to sweet talk your future sugar momma.  Or possibly mercenary. 

Sugar momma phase lasts a week tops. I just hope afterwards all she does is push me to be better professionally. There's still a .1% chance she's trying to make me her Pulp Fiction style gimp though, which is concerning, but ultimately a risk worth taking.  

[IheartIheartTesla]

15 hours ago, Raja said:

None of this has anything to do with dating so.....Sorry!

Cardiologist: Hot enough to make your heart skip a beat, smart enough to make it start up again

(also works for those who deal with respiratory diseases, just replace with "take your breath away")

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Sad to hear one of my step-brothers tell me he's considering divorcing his wife. I really like her. The hang up seems to be he wants kids and she doesn't want to have sex. I did my best to give him some advice, but Idk if it will do much help.

[kiko]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Sad to hear one of my step-brothers tell me he's considering divorcing his wife. I really like her. The hang up seems to be he wants kids and she doesn't want to have sex. I did my best to give him some advice, but Idk if it will do much help.

Have they thought about IVF? This way they both get their wishes done.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, kiko said:

Have they thought about IVF? This way they both get their wishes done.

Nah, it just sounds like they've grown apart. And I know him better than just about anybody I've known in my life. He's even hornier than me, so the no sex aspect is probably making him do things he doesn't really want to tell me. I hope I'm wrong. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I mean sounds like there are deeper issues?  "(S)he doesn't want to have sex" can be code for all kinds of things, but it usually means there is something else there that is not being addressed.  If their big issue is that he wants kids and she doesn't, then, well, maybe they should split because that won't reconcile itself.

[Maithanet]

Yeah, it is basically impossible to have a relationship that is going well except that you've stopped having sex.  Hopefully he can get to the bottom of what that is before having to resort to divorce. 

[VigoTheCarpathian]

50 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I mean sounds like there are deeper issues?  "(S)he doesn't want to have sex" can be code for all kinds of things, but it usually means there is something else there that is not being addressed.  If their big issue is that he wants kids and she doesn't, then, well, maybe they should split because that won't reconcile itself.

Yeah, this.  Sex is a precursor to kids, so it might be her way of ending the relationship passively (knowing he wants sex) or it’s likely something deeper (i.e., she doesn’t want kids and is closing off that possibility without talking about the real reason, knowing that would end the relationship immediately if she said it out loud).  I don’t pretend to know, but I would doubt there isn’t something deeper - depression, unresolved trauma, not feeling valued in the relationship, she could be asexual and just didn’t know it until she was in a committed relationship for a while and it was an expectation. 

Having been through something similar, I would suggest marriage counseling/couples therapy before they do anything drastic, if the rest of the relationship is positive and they both want to keep it.  Even if it is only sexual asymmetry, that’s not situation you can work through objectively with each other - too many personal stakes. And it’s important to work through explicitly before kids - it’s no harm/no foul if counseling is a bust and it goes to divorce.

[Toth]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:25 PM, Madame deVenoge said:

It’s the way he expresses this occasionally as a dig at me that has me on edge. 

So, next time he does it, I will talk with him rather than just ignore it.

Mmh, I've been wondering... why wait until it happens again? Given your previous descriptions of his behavior, I have a vague feeling that it might be even simpler to just bring it up yourself in an appropriate moment. "Remember that joke you did about me being "broke"? I didn't say anything back then, but it's been weighing on my mind this whole time and can't help but find it hurtful." Something along these lines. I'm thinking that portraying it as something you thought over may indicate you being hurt as a more serious concern than expressing it "in the heat of the moment", so to speak. It may even be that he either mistakes it for banter or, in the case of this dragging out even more, for you to bottle up your frustration and make your reaction worse than necessary.