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Dating Thread: Hope Springs Eternal


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46 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Yeah, he gets a little cannabis in him and he thinks he’s a comedian :rolleyes: I don’t think he’s mean spirited, I think he REALLY thinks he’s funny.

I’ve never indicated that we should get closer so that he could support me financially (ugh, last thing I would want!!) and I kinda feel your pain, there, @Tywin et al. - hell, I’m not only paying my kid’s living expenses, and have been for 4 years directly (him living with me) and 12 years (post divorce to the ex, then rent in college) indirectly, I’m paying off $140k in his student loans. Not like Doctor has done that for someone else. He pays a minimal amount to his kid’s mom.

And I can still Pay My Own Way, which is what *I* would be concerned about.

I've never had to pay anything like that. A few GFs in HS didn't have jobs, my ex-fiancé sometimes made a little, sometimes a lot because she did freelance modeling and was a pet sitter so now and then needed help with the bills and like a lot of us as adults I've dated some people who were in between jobs. It happens. The resent starts to kick in when it's clear they have no plan. And it's fine if the plan is I just need a month or two to feel positive and then attack the job hunt. It's why in our private conversations I've said it wouldn't be the end of the world to resign without a job firmly locked up and I'd like to think the Doc would have been cool with it.

All that said, you should never make your partner feel bad about what they make unless they're a complete deadbeat (stay at home parents don't apply here), and at that point you probably should consider moving on unless you're in a really long, committed relationship. Doc was way out of line. Without discussing too much private info you make a lot of money and like you said, you've been paying pretty much all of your son's bills (put him out on the corner so he can make you some money :P). He was disrespectful and it's hard to understand why. I wouldn't let that slide. Tell him why it hurt you if you didn't already do so. Hopefully he understands. 

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1 hour ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Yeah, he gets a little cannabis in him and he thinks he’s a comedian :rolleyes: I don’t think he’s mean spirited, I think he REALLY thinks he’s funny.

It does sound like a bad attempt at humor, not a judgement, and agree on letting him know “hey, mr. chuckles, circumstances are extremely different for us and i feel like you’re making a statement about my worth and work ethic when you said that.  Your rich ass is first against the wall when I lead the prole uprising”.

I know I’m self-conscious about being relatively well-of: we live in a wealthy area, but have to sometimes bite my tongue on the self deprecation (it’s how I poke fun at the fact that my problems aren’t any where near those of my poorer relatives).   Our kids have friends who go skiing on spring break and winter in the tropics, and we can’t afford that, so I’ve let slip “sorry, we’re the poors in this neighborhood, kiddos”. I still have to have repeated long conversations with about relative wealth, happiness, and envy, and how my upbringing made me uncomfortable with money and very likely to joke about it because I’m scared to lose it.

 

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Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

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31 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

Remember we do have high-up consultants who’ll massively supplement earnings by doing private work. Not sure what happens now, but sone doctors also worked on call as police casualty surgeons, ie got called out to examine prisoners if there weere doubts over them being medically fit for detention. 
Some might also work with universities or consult with big pharna firms.

The medical supply company reps used to run ‘training days’ for my wife and the other nurses in her dept. These training sessions generally took place on a Friday or Saturday night in a restaurant and pub, and was essentially a free meal and bar. It stopped in oart due to covid and in oart brcause one night they utterly ripped the pish out of it.

If these companies are doing that for thr ‘pleb’ nurses, I can only wonder what ‘training sessions’ they’re running for the highers-up who directly influence what medical gear is ordered.

 

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500k is hardly average for a doctor in the US, and if you compare general practitioners there is perhaps a more reasonable comparison to be made between the two countries, Once you get into specialists the disparity may be become more for certain areas (particularly the cosmetic ones).

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8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Doctors in the UK are underpaid, but 500k for being a doctor? its meant to be something you go into as a vocation (and be adequately rewarded) not a means to get stupid rich. 

I’m about to say something stupidly American, but I’ve decided to say it anyway.  I don’t like this “you go into [FIELD X] because of a vocation [and not for money] argument.  I have three reasons:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

2.  These professions are either historically or increasingly female. (BTW, emergency services, including police, work also is a big social value add if done correctly, but at least in the states I don’t hear the same malarkey about having a “calling” or a “vocation”).

3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

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42 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I’m about to say something stupidly American, but I’ve decided to say it anyway.  I don’t like this “you go into [FIELD X] because of a vocation [and not for money] argument.  I have three reasons:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

2.  These professions are either historically or increasingly female. (BTW, emergency services, including police, work also is a big social value add if done correctly, but at least in the states I don’t hear the same malarkey about having a “calling” or a “vocation”).

3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

I have no problem with people being very well rewarded for vocational work. But 500 k is stupid. You are either rinsing the customer (US) or overly burdening state provision at that level of salary (everywhere with social healthcare). 

If you pay too much for vocational work you get people attracted by the salary, not the societal benefit, and I don't want those people working for the NHS, teaching, police etc. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

1.  It is usually applied with respect to professions (like medicine and teaching) that are huge value add from a social perspective.  The concept that the practitioner gets personal satisfaction out of the career is used to justify paying those practitioners less.  We should be paying doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. MORE not less.

Save the whales! And the snails! :P

Idk if doctors need to make more, but nurses sure do as well as teachers and generally most public servants. Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

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3.  I’m ok with doctors getting stupid rich.  They take on a crap ton of schooling, work really hard, and in my profession, if I make a mistake, no one dies.  They can’t say the same.  That’s not to say medical care should not be available and affordable to all. That’s a different question.

Most doctors don't actually make life or death decisions. And having worked at a hospital for seven years I can tell you a lot of them are extremely incompetent at very basic shit then get pissed when you have to teach them it. Typically they get resentful and don't follow instructions so we have to bill their department while they still get paid. That's a major reason why hospital bills in general are so massive, infighting between departments gets passed along to insurance who won't pay and the patients eat it.

Edited by Tywin et al.
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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Save the whales! And the snails! :P

Idk know if doctors need to make more, but nurses sure as shit do as well as teachers and generally most public servants. Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

Most doctors don't actually make life or death decisions. And having worked at a hospital for seven years I can tell you a lot of them are extremely incompetent at very basic shit then get pissed when you have to teach them it. Typically they get resentful and don't follow instructions so we have to bill their department while they still get paid. That's a major reason why hospital bills in general are so massive, infighting between departments gets passed along to insurance who won't pay it and the patients eat the bills. 

I have a good friend who is a (competent) cardiologist.  She would tell you the same about life or death.  I made the point that even if it is a 1% risk, I live in a very different world.

Also, I hear you a bit on basic shit but also I think some of that is just the way your hospital system has built teams and incentives and/or the way insurance has set up rules and practices.  It doesn’t 100% mean they are incompetent.

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3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I have a good friend who is a (competent) cardiologist.  She would tell you the same about life or death.  I made the point that even if it is a 1% risk, I live in a very different world.

Eh, I would feel the same way about getting a competent criminal defense attorney who could keep me out of jail. I trash lawyers, but when you need a good one you really need one. Same goes for doctors. Problem is if you can't pay for one you get what you get.

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Also, I hear you a bit on basic shit but also I think some of that is just the way your hospital system has built teams and incentives and/or the way insurance has set up rules and practices.  It doesn’t 100% mean they are incompetent.

I work for a hospital that's ranked top 100 in country. And they can't get really simple shit right. Just for example, you have to fax documents over to other departments and on the website they don't have the right number and people working there don't know what the correct one is. It's that level of just not caring. I've had to contact people at the Mayo Clinic and get transferred around only to be back to the same person I first spoke to. People really underestimate how common this is at the best hospitals. I can't imagine what it's like and bad ones (well I can, but thankfully I rarely interact with them). And this plays a major role in why everything is so expensive. Most things cost a fraction of what insurances are billed for, they have a million outs of paying it and then good luck to the patient. And that's where I come in and try to save them as much as I can or just get them out of it. The entire system is fucked, but that's for another thread. 

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Eh, I would feel the same way about getting a competent criminal defense attorney who could keep me out of jail. I trash lawyers, but when you need a good one you really need one. Same goes for doctors. Problem is if you can't pay for one you get what you get.

I work for a hospital that's ranked top 100 in country. And they can't get really simple shit right. Just for example, you have to fax documents over to other departments and on the website they don't have the right number and people working there don't know what the correct one is. It's that level of just not caring. I've had to contact people at the Mayo Clinic and get transferred around only to be back to the same person I first spoke to. People really underestimate how common this is at the best hospitals. I can't imagine what it's like and bad ones (well I can, but thankfully I rarely interact with them). And this plays a major role in why everything is so expensive. Most things cost a fraction of what insurances are billed for, they have a million outs of paying it and then good luck to the patient. And that's where I come in and try to save them as much as I can or just get them out of it. The entire system is fucked, but that's for another thread. 

OMG, I thought the IRS was the only institution that still used fax.

And yes, agree on the system (and that it is not for the thread de romance).

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30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shit I'm the one saying pay members of Congress more to attract better people to run for office.

 

I don't think they should be paid more to attract better people as I don't think it would. But so you can say that's your very generous salary, no outside interests.

I think it's the most bizarre thing in the world how we allow our politicians to be beholden to people paying for influence. 

Imagine if I started taking backhanded from drug dealers, and everyone said 'fair enough'? 

Edited by BigFatCoward
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To be fair to him, part of what I think is driving his motivation is that he’s aware that he’s been incredibly lucky: he did make an amazing real estate investment. He did turn down a partnership early in his career that probably would have bankrupted him. He didn’t get married and divorced. He is one of the dwindling percentage of doctors in private practice in a very established partnership. (It’s a business partnership for overhead costs - all of them “eat what they kill.”)

It’s the way he expresses this occasionally as a dig at me that has me on edge. 

So, next time he does it, I will talk with him rather than just ignore it.

 

ETA - also, there is more than a minimal chance in his specialty that if he were to miss something or make a mistake, yes, it could result in someone’s death.

Edited by Madame deVenoge
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3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I don't think they should be paid more to attract better people as I don't think it would. But so you can say that's your very generous salary, no outside interests.

I think it's the most bizarre thing in the world how we allow our politicians to be beholden to people paying for influence. 

Imagine if I started taking backhanded from drug dealers, and everyone said 'fair enough'? 

Eh, you don't? :stunned:

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Obviously I have thoughts about payment for physicians, nurses etc

1. Vocation - Unfortunately, my job being a vocation doesn't pay my rent, the people I support, or the costs associated with training as a doctor, especially if you're significantly in debt. At least here in the UK, I feel like the job being deemed a vocation has kept our pay down to a large extent over the last couple of decades.

2. As to what the compensation for a doctors - some places, like the US & Canada have different salaries depending on what speacialty you practice. To me, the disparity shouldn't exist as your incentives to train in a speaciality can change where you're doing it because it offers you the fastest way to pay off your med school debt. The debt sums are enormous though so I can absolutely understand people doing that.

3. A lot of the US system is geared towards making money - In a lot of cases, the various stakeholders in a health system are geared towards making money, as opposed to doing the best thing for a patient. This includes insurance companies, health systems & even doctors. Insurance companies are particularly guilty of this, and there are countless examples of it happening everywhere for all sorts of different things ( surprise medical bills, prior authrization). Health systems, even not for profit health system, will take tax exemptions and not provide their 'community benefit' or run from providing care to people that do not have insurance.

Doctors get in on it because with some specialities the more procedures you do, the more you can charge & the more you can earn. Sometimes people get procedures that are not indicated or scans that are not needed in this fee for service model, even though in large parts of the US people are moving away from fee for service models.

None of this is to say that you canoot receive good medical care, you certainly can and people do, but the population as a whole suffers because of the way the system is geared.

4. 'Saving lives' - I shy away from describing the job like that but some specialities do literally do this, especially the big ones like Emergency Medicine, Surgery, Medicine ( this includes Cardiology), Obstetric & Paediatrics. Cardiologists literally perform life saving interventions ( PCI - stenting coronary arteries) on patients that get heart attacks. But it seems a bit..pompus to go about saying 'I save lives'.

None of this has anything to do with dating so.....Sorry!

 

Edited by Raja
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On 6/25/2023 at 4:19 PM, Tywin et al. said:

That's pretty fucked up. I get being frustrated at having to support someone for a long time (been there a few times), but you're in the top 5% of average earners. Seems mean spirited. Might be best to just tell him now how it hurt you.

It's endearing that you're trying to sweet talk your future sugar momma.  Or possibly mercenary.  ;)

On 6/25/2023 at 3:35 AM, Toth said:

I must admit, I really, really hate this "Just get jacked!" being the go-to recommendation for men struggling with confidence. Yes, I know I'm bad at making the time for my training regimen and yes, maybe it's just an excuse because I found all my sports-related experiences traumatic, getting relentlessly bullied in changing rooms and taking constant shit from my father about what a weak disappointment I am. But I still think I'm reasonably fit at the moment and don't need to waste soooo much time that I don't have and money to become a muscle head to feel better about myself. And I also think it wouldn't change a fucking anything about me being ugly and short and socially awkward. Holy shit, there is more about life than spending hours sitting in other people's stink to push metal thingies like Sisyphus until you can't anymore...

Think of it more as a video game concept and you're levelling up.  Pretty sure I suggested getting stronger, not more jacked as well. Obviously one gets  larger as one gets stronger, but there are different optimizations for body building versus strength training.  And there's a virtuous feed back loop in strength training that doesn't have the same body image issues that body building does.  If running gets you there instead, that's great, but personally I detest cardio in most forms.

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9 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

OMG, I thought the IRS was the only institution that still used fax.

And yes, agree on the system (and that it is not for the thread de romance).

Medical offices everywhere are keeping the fax machine alive, just like attorneys keep the financial printers afloat :)

Marriages of convenience, right there. 

Edited by Madame deVenoge
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1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

It's endearing that you're trying to sweet talk your future sugar momma.  Or possibly mercenary.  ;)

Sugar momma phase lasts a week tops. I just hope afterwards all she does is push me to be better professionally. There's still a .1% chance she's trying to make me her Pulp Fiction style gimp though, which is concerning, but ultimately a risk worth taking.  :P

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