NBA Playoffs - Joker's Wild

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not going to lie and say I watch a ton of Magic games. The few I did he didn't really jump out to me like PB did. Looking at his numbers, even if you expect there to be a third year jump, he just seems like at best a fringe All-Star. PB is the much better prospect, but I'm not sure if he can even be a top 10 player and typically you need that to make deep runs. Hence why I said they need to add someone else that is at least a top 25 level player.

There's absolutely no reason to think Banchero can't be a top 10 player and Wagner can't be a top 25 player.  Indeed, that's exactly the trajectory they're on.  Even more so, arguably.  Obviously they are young and developing and everyone can have their opinion, but there's no evidence to the contrary based on their production at this stage in their respective careers.

[Tywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, DMC said:

There's absolutely no reason to think Banchero can't be a top 10 player and Wagner can't be a top 25 player.  Indeed, that's exactly the trajectory they're on.  Even more so, arguably.  Obviously they are young and developing and everyone can have their opinion, but there's no evidence to the contrary based on their production at this stage in their respective careers.

The problem is there's 15-20 guys right now that will be called top 10 players and maybe 40-50 that are called top 25. There's just a lot of talent in the league. I've spoken highly of PB, but I don't think he's going to be Duncan. Wagner is a nice player, but there's a lot of other nice players who most fans barely know of because how the fuck can you watch all these games?  

The Magic need another star. How they get that player, Idk, but PB and Wagner even if the both improve over the next few years isn't going to make to the favorite unless PB really improves and I'm wrong about the Duncan remark. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The problem is there's 15-20 guys right now that will be called top 10 players and maybe 40-50 that are called top 25. There's just a lot of talent in the league. I've spoken highly of PB, but I don't think he's going to be Duncan. Wagner is a nice player, but there's a lot of other nice players who most fans barely know of because how the fuck can you watch all these games?  

Cite how many players there are that have produced in similar ways at their respective years/ages.  It's much smaller than what you're suggesting.  Is Banchero going to be Duncan?  No, of course not.  He's going to be Banchero, who almost certainly will not be as great a player as Duncan was.  But that's not what you said.  What you said is if he could be a top-10 player.  And it's very clear that he has a great chance of developing into one based on his rookie season.  Indeed, it's probably the most likely outcome (albeit still under 50 percent).

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Magic need another star.

Not necessarily, no.  You have no idea what they need, and neither do I.  Banchero and Wagner could develop into a 1-2 punch that is frankly better than many championship teams over the years have had.  Or not.  We'll see.  Same goes for developing Suggs, retaining Carter and Fultz who both are injury-prone but pretty damn good when they're on the court, and then we'll see about the picks.  That's a lot going for them, and demonstratively means there's nothing to overreact about in terms of "getting another star." 

[Tywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, DMC said:

Cite how many players there are that have produced in similar ways at their respective years/ages.  It's much smaller than what you're suggesting.  Is Banchero going to be Duncan?  No, of course not.  He's going to be Banchero, who almost certainly will not be as great a player as Duncan was.  But that's not what you said.  What you said is if he could be a top-10 player.  And it's very clear that he has a great chance of developing into one based on his rookie season.  Indeed, it's probably the most likely outcome (albeit still under 50 percent).

KAT, lol. Slight differences, but overall very similar and I'd take KAT's rebounding as the main separator. PB is a nice young player in a league with a ton of nice young players, stars and superstars. The NBA is stacked right now. It's not an insult to say it's hard to crack into the top 10 right now.

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Not necessarily, no.  You have no idea what they need, and neither do I.  Banchero and Wagner could develop into a 1-2 punch that is frankly better than many championship teams over the years have had.  Or not.  We'll see.  Same goes for developing Suggs, retaining Carter and Fultz who both are injury-prone but pretty damn good when they're on the court, and then we'll see about the picks.  That's a lot going for them, and demonstratively means there's nothing to overreact about in terms of "getting another star." 

It just feels like if they don't make a move they'll be like Boston. They have some very good, but not elite players and a ton of talent around them. Can you win with that? Maybe, but I'd like to see them try and get a dynamic scorer which is why Beal and Young came to mind even if I don't love either of them. DO they need to make that move right now? Timewise I'd say no, but those picks are assets and I'd think the goal for next year is try in get into the backend of the playoffs, or at least the play-in. 

Edited June 8 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

KAT, lol.

Heh.  Ah..this is about your bitterness when it comes to KAT not being a better player than he should be.  Gotcha.  Not too worried about that with Banchero.

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It just feels like if they don't make a move they'll be like Boston.

You mean the team that's been a championship contender and in the EC finals 5 of the last 7 years?  Yeah.  Boston's problem clearly isn't a lack of talent, so, definitely take that comparison.

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Timewise I'd say no, but those picks are assets and I'd think the goal for next year is try in get into the backend of the playoffs, or at least the play-in. 

They can easily make the playoffs without making any moves as a lower seed -- obviously health providing.  You yourself said so a few posts up.  Also, worth mentioning, the Heat were the 8th seed and are in the finals, so who the fuck knows.  There's a lot more parity right now than usual.

[Tywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Heh.  Ah..this is about your bitterness when it comes to KAT not being a better player than he should be.  Gotcha.  Not too worried about that with Banchero.

I'm not bitter, just pointing out their rookie years were comparable and I think KAT's overall stat line was better. Maybe PB develops into a better player, but KAT is not bad and it just goes to show how stacked the league is. It's not like a couple decades ago when the 15th best player wasn't actually all that good. 

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You mean the team that's been a championship contender and in the EC finals 5 of the last 7 years?  Yeah.  Boston's problem clearly isn't a lack of talent, so, definitely take that comparison.

It's lofty to expect your two guys to be as good as Tatum and Brown or for Suggs to be as good as Smart, and there's no Time Lord on the roster. Again, trending in the right direction, but you need another player who I think needs to at least be better than Wagner. That's nothing against him.

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They can easily make the playoffs without making any moves as a lower seed -- obviously health providing.  You yourself said so a few posts up.  Also, worth mentioning, the Heat were the 8th seed and are in the finals, so who the fuck knows.  There's a lot more parity right now than usual.

The Heat are a well run organization with one of the best coaches in the NBA. The Magic are not that, hence why I mentioned before if you don't want to spend for everything right now, use the 6th pick and trade the 12th for a vet who can teach the kids. The Magic have a promising future if they handle this correctly.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

overall stat line was better.

No, I really don't think it is.  Banchero scored more and assisted way more.  It's also not an exact comparison between a true 5 and someone who oftentimes played 3 due to injuries - although is obviously a natural 4.  In terms of numbers, I'd take Banchero's over KAT's as a rookie season, no doubt.  So would most.  I'm not the only one referring to Banchero as the best rookie since LeBron.

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's lofty

You say lofty, I say patience.  You might be right!  But again, you have no reason to think that other than being a contrarian.  And both the production and, frankly, the fact they are both clearly really good guys, suggests a glass-half-full approach is probably apt.

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

a vet who can teach the kids

They have Gary Harris.  I really think this is often overrated -- the "old" veteran to teach the young bucks.  I suppose it's because I'm 38 now, but this idea that "veterans" in the NBA can provide more wisdom than, ya know, their coaches, is kinda silly.  There should be some players that show them the ropes generally, sure, but those are a dime a dozen.

[Tywin et al.]

32 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, I really don't think it is.  Banchero scored more and assisted way more.  It's also not an exact comparison between a true 5 and someone who oftentimes played 3 due to injuries - although is obviously a natural 4.  In terms of numbers, I'd take Banchero's over KAT's as a rookie season, no doubt.  So would most.  I'm not the only one referring to Banchero as the best rookie since LeBron.

LeBron clearly looked a lot better. PB got numbers on a bad team, and again I'd take KAT's rebounding and blocks for the slight scoring edge.

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You say lofty, I say patience.  You might be right!  But again, you have no reason to think that other than being a contrarian.  And both the production and, frankly, the fact they are both clearly really good guys, suggests a glass-half-full approach is probably apt.

I just think it's a lot to expect that franchise to develop them both into stars, which is why I lean towards bringing some vet in, especially since you guys can afford it.

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They have Gary Harris.  I really think this is often overrated -- the "old" veteran to teach the young bucks.  I suppose it's because I'm 38 now, but this idea that "veterans" in the NBA can provide more wisdom than, ya know, their coaches, is kinda silly.  There should be some players that show them the ropes generally, sure, but those are a dime a dozen.

I think Haslem is a great example why using the 15th roster spot in that fashion is very useful. Players connect with other players more than with their coaches. Plus you need someone who can just teach them about the life of the NBA.  

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

LeBron clearly looked a lot better.

Of course.  Hence the "since LeBron."  As for KAT, honestly, I put KAT on the Magic on my video game back before he was drafted.  Always been a huge fan.  But no, his rookie season wasn't as promising as Banchero's.  That's clear.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think Haslem is a great example why using the 15th roster spot in that fashion is very useful. Players connect with other players more than with their coaches. Plus you need someone who can just teach them about the life of the NBA.  

Well..sure.  They signed Micheal Carter-Williams late in the season to be just that.  As I said, that's not something you really need to worry about.

Edited June 8 by DMC

[baxus]

19 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

He's always going to be one of the most confusing athletes ever if you just look at him, especially considering he looks tired as fuck after just a few minutes in nearly every game. 

I think his fitness and athleticism goes under the radar because he's not as fast or explosive as other stars of the league, nor does he jump anywhere near as high etc. He's big, he's strong, he can't be easily pushed around, and it's definitely not easy. It's just not as flashy as what most other NBA players are capable of doing.

And yeah, he does look like he tires way too easily.

[Proudfeet]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

 nor does he jump anywhere near as high etc.

As far as I can tell, he barely even attempts to jump at all. 

Getting tired of the comments on how he doesn't look able at this point. He's gotten much fitter from when he started and it's not like he's Lowry.

_

ESPN has an article saying how the NBA might give coaches a second challenge if their first challenge is successful. I get that they don't want to delay the game with more reviews, but why wouldn't they just give them as many challenges as they have timeouts and only refund the first successful challenge? Maybe its taking away a timeout from the team that they'd want to use differently, but there's no harm in giving them the choice. 

Also, they might trial using technology for the last two minutes for out of bounds and goal tending plays. Hopefully that means they are trialling the process of making it timely instead of only collecting data on accuracy for the last two minutes. Looks like its still a manual process through the replay center instead of being automated, but they can improve on that. 

[Tywin et al.]

14 hours ago, DMC said:

Of course.  Hence the "since LeBron."  As for KAT, honestly, I put KAT on the Magic on my video game back before he was drafted.  Always been a huge fan.  But no, his rookie season wasn't as promising as Banchero's.  That's clear.

I'm really not sure why you think this is so. KAT played with another scorer so his points were slightly below PB's. His rebounds and blocks offered a lot more promise than PB averaging 2 more assists a game. And he was a better outside shooter even though PB spent more time playing like a wing (which I still don't think is the correct way to use him, but we'll see).

5 hours ago, baxus said:

I think his fitness and athleticism goes under the radar because he's not as fast or explosive as other stars of the league, nor does he jump anywhere near as high etc. He's big, he's strong, he can't be easily pushed around, and it's definitely not easy. It's just not as flashy as what most other NBA players are capable of doing.

And yeah, he does look like he tires way too easily.

It certainly does. Him constantly looking tired is confusing, but he's running the fast break all the time, nearly to perfection, and if anyone doubts his strength see all the jokes I made about him and Morris. Joker is an incredible athlete on every level, he just doesn't look like one if you didn't know how big he is. He does kind of look like Ted in accounting if he was just 6 feet tall. 

ETA: I heard he dropped a bit of weight and really dedicated himself to cardio over the last few years and it shows. Again, not with his body, but the way he's moving around. It's helped a lot on the defensive side. 

Edited June 9 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

KAT played with another scorer so his points were slightly below PB's.

LOL, what other scorer?  Wiggins?  Really stretching it to say there's much difference between 20 year old Wiggins and 21 year old Wagner.  Let alone Carter, Anthony, and Fultz, whereas the only other contributor on KAT's rookie team was 20 year old LaVine.  Indeed, this argument about sharing the scoring load objectively favors Banchero.

As for rebounding, again, Towns was obviously the one that should have a high rebound rate.  There was Gorgui Dieng, his backup, that also rebounded at a high rate, but other than that there wasn't really anyone else. 

The reason anyone with a brain favors Banchero's season over KAT's is because the former demonstrated the ability to create his own shots and even run the offense on occasion, things KAT never has nor will indicate.  Not to mention Banchero isn't a liability on defense.

[Tywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, DMC said:

The reason anyone with a brain favors Banchero's season over KAT's is because the former demonstrated the ability to create his own shots and even run the offense on occasion, things KAT never has nor will indicate.  Not to mention Banchero isn't a liability on defense.

Talk about rose tinted glasses. Only a Magic fan would make this argument. KAT has been All-NBA twice. Hope and pray that PB does the same. 20/7/4 for a rookie is solid, but again, all of us and pretty much the entire basketball community viewed him as a high floor, low ceiling guy. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Talk about rose tinted glasses. Only a Magic fan would make this argument.

LOL, no.  Plenty of people throughout sports media have observed Banchero's rookie season was the best since LeBron, or at least since Black Griffin's.  Because it obviously is.

[Tywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL, no.  Plenty of people throughout sports media have observed Banchero's rookie season was the best since LeBron, or at least since Black Griffin's.  Because it obviously is.

And I can counter with empty inefficient numbers on a bad team. You're the one saying he'll be a top 10 player. I think he'll be top 25, but I'm not making that reach yet. Just for comparison, KAT's efg% was 9% higher during his rookie year. 

Edited June 9 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And I can counter with empty inefficient numbers on a bad team.

Virtually all great rookies play on bad teams.  The reason for that is obvious.  Not to mention the fact that Orlando was a significantly better team that the Wolves in KAT's rookie season - particularly, ya know, when Banchero played, which is the entire point.  And as I showed above, his efficiency was on par with LeBron's rookie season.  

[David Selig]

LeBron's rookie season was during the peak of the slow pace, all defence era when the average scoring efficiency in the league was way lower than it is now. His scoring efficiency was still below league average, but by less than Banchero's this season.

The most positive sign for Banchero's scoring prowess in the future is that he's been able to get to the line a lot right from his first game, which is extremely rare for a rookie.

Banchero's rookie season was very encouraging, but for me not the best of the last 20 years or even since Blake. Luka was clearly better, for example. Banchero scored a lot, but on a poor efficiency and his impact numbers were quite bad, our net rating with him on the bench was much better than when he played. Part of it is that he played most of his minutes with the only starting PG in the league who refuses to shoot 3s no matter which is far from ideal since driving to the basket is Paolo's bread and butter and he is a poor 3 point shooter himself. I want to see how he would look with a normal NBA spacing and we need to move on Fultz if he doesn't find his 3 ball very soon or at least make Fultz a 6th man.

ANyway, back to the Finals. Joker has really impressed me with his defence throughout them, especially in the last two games. He keeps proving that all the talk about him being a bad defender is nonsense. Sure, he has physical limitations, but he's smart as hell, has absolutely fantastic hands and gets deflections at an excellent rate, he's so big nobody can move him in the low post and he just completely dominates on the defensive glass.

[Teng Ai Hui]

It was a really good game until the Heat fell apart during the last minute and then gave up with 9 seconds left.

[Proudfeet]

2 minutes ago, Teng Ai Hui said:

 gave up with 9 seconds left.

It was a two possession game at that point, three if Denver make the free throws on an intentional foul. They don't have timeouts to advance the ball. What would you have them do?