Brienne of Tarth's Endgame

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Hi, Selam!

After Jorah Mormont's Endgame , I wanted to discuss Brienne's Endgame.

Actually, I watched Elio and Linda's GoT Endgame video almost a year ago, this reason i asked some characters' endgame to myself. I thought about Jon, Arya, Dany and others but not characters like Brienne and Jorah. Yes, i had some ideas about roles like Jorah but i did not think their ends. Whatever.

Today let's talk Brienne.

In the Show, Brienne is knighted and her story as the Kingsguard is over. If I'm not mistaken, Elio and Linda doubt that Brienne will have the same ending, but the possibility of being knighted isn't fundamentally impossible because there's no law against women being knighted (though traditions differ). Being the Kingsguard is still thought-provoking because Westeros is not a romantic place, and they find it dubious to expect them to suddenly accept such a change. (I may not have understood the conversations correctly because my English is not perfect. People who have watched it before can correct me if I am wrong.)

But is it really doubtful that she has the same or similar ending? So of course Martin may think differently and may not even have decided yet, but is it impossible for the books to have the same ending? Or even if there is a possibility, is that possibility far away?

Not for me. Why?

Parallelism

Elio and Linda, like many asoiaf readers, consider Brienne a descendant of Dunk. It is obvious that a similar ending would create parallelism between the two. Maybe D&D believed in the same theory and therefore wanted to create the same parallelism.

As grandfather and grandchild, they are both quite tall. Although they both wanted to be knights, they didn't actually start their story as knights (Dunk lies that he was). Dunk is tasked with training the future king, Prince Aegon "Egg", and later as his Kingsguard, protecting his king. Chances are, Dunk may have actually been knighted at some point in his life. I'm assuming he will want to clear this roughness before he becomes KG, because he is sensitive and honorable about it, I believe he doesn't want to taint KG. Anyway.

Since we know that Martin likes to write parallel stories/characters (probably because this is more meaningful among blood relatives), Brienne could have a fate like her grandfather.

In fact, we may have read the trailer of it.

Character introduction as possible foreshadowing

We first met Brienne in Cat's POV. When we first met Brienne, we read of her as someone who fought for Renly and joined his Rainbow Guard. They were also referred to as the Rainbow Knights, but our maiden was not a knight, moreover, this fraternity was also formed to be equivalent to the Kingsguard.

So basically Brienne joined a throne pretender's (Renly's) kingsguards, even though it was already considered an unofficial formation, and protected the king for a short time, even without being a knight.

Of course, those around Renly didn't like it, but in the end, they didn't raise flag of rebellion for it either.

As you can see, we've already read Brienne as an unofficial knight and kingsguard, this is the first time we've known her that way. Loras was similarly Renly's KG, and then he really became KG.

That's why Brienne can also be the guardian of the king/queen of the Iron Throne at the end of the story. Are there any open-minded characters for this in Westeros? Jon, Arya and Dany are the three main characters who are open-minded and will not mind Brienne's gender.

NOTE: Of course, I didn't try to tell Arya will sit on the Iron Throne and become Queen of Westeros, but given the influence Arya had on Jon , she's a strong influence character that could have had a big influence on Jon's decision, so I included her. This is true even in a normal relationship, but if the JonArya theory is true, it could be more effective. Arya might even want to set herself up with queen's guards.

Even by himself, Jon actually broke this rule. Only men are allowed into the NW, but already one castle is all-female. You know that Jon has unofficially recruited the Wildings into the Night's Watch, and that includes the women. If we consider Jon to be the descendant of Aegon, the parallelism of two grandfathers and two grandchildren arises (same goes for Dany's equation).

Arya and Jon are rule breakers. Dany isn't the type to turn anyone down because of her gender anyway, especially as she's an aspirant to sit on the Iron Throne for the first time as a woman.

Thank you for reading.

 

[chrisdaw]

I've no doubt Brienne will be knighted and expect she will be KG but I doubt she ends the series KG because she's going to sleep with Jaime and it'd make a lot of sense for her to get pregnant by him, and I doubt a KG could remain a KG while pregnant or having so obviously broken their vow.

[Nevets]

At this point, I think it is too early to make endgame predictions for anybody, especially non-central characters like Brienne unless you expect their death.  

I think Brienne has a better than average chance of surviving the series.  Her death likely wouldn't affect the story that much, and it's not one readers are looking forward to. 

I doubt she will end up as a knight or a Kingsguard.  Not that she won't deserve it; but Westeros is still a very traditional society, and patriarchal.  It will change, but not that much.  Being sworn shield to a queen consort, princess, or high lady is a strong possibility, though. 

Marriage and children are also possible, if not as likely.  At this point though, the only real candidate is Ser Hyle, who she currently dislikes, as do most readers. However, he does respect her abilities, and even her attitude, which is more than can be said for most men in the series.

[Castellan]

Brienne seems to have a good chance to survive. I think rare exceptions to a rule aren't as threatening as a proposal for a general change, so one woman in the KG is possible. Even a woman heading it. After all, if you can beat them all at sword play, which seems likely (Jaime is amazed at her ability) you are going to start become a semi legendary figure for sure, Also, she could have a special role made for her, for example, a special guard for a member of the royal family, or someone who is sent on missions.

I liked the idea of her getting pregnant by jaime leaving us wondering at the end if the series if she is going to raise the greatest warrior in history, but lately I have been thinking that Jaime is going to pay a nasty price for his relationship with his sister by not having a carnal one with anyone else. Actually, although its plausible Brienne survives, I also tend to think both she and Jaime are headed to be undead along the lines of Beric, and Jaime definitely finally dead after that.

[Haus Berlin]

As the Jeanne d‘Arc character of this series I expect a somewhat muddy outcome for Brienne and where to place her politically after all. She already is a living legend, supporting/ killing former master of law and unlawful king Renly - just to side with the Lannisters afterwards and going after their crimes the same time. With two books to come there is enough room for further confusion.

She and the Brotherhood without Banners are a perfect match considering their cloudy mandates. Ned as Hand of the King had curated knights who won over partisans and now Brienne shows up with king Tommen‘s carte blanche and an interesting crossover sword at hand.

Surely some sort of executive branch is in the making here and we can expect core political questions being tackled by that. Like, where and when does these people‘s power end and to what measure and means violence is an option.

Readers believe in Brienne‘s good will, but is she really a good judge from what we know of her? And is she supposed to be that? There is a need for new common ground on the battlefield the Riverlands were turned into. And wouldn’t it be merry if some Goldenhand the Just went out on a search for a source of justice? But it is unlikely things work out nicely and yet they might be tried.

So my guess is: The Brotherhood without Banners and Brienne through the Lord Commander‘s absence confiscate Frey areas and raise a proto-republic as a warm welcome for any lost (Stark) child. But under the pressure of wars and a lot more winter to come their neighbouring countries likely won’t accept a waiting room and terreur emerges to defend the mere idea.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Haus Berlin

[The hairy bear]

On 5/24/2023 at 3:37 AM, Nevets said:

I think Brienne has a better than average chance of surviving the series.  Her death (...) it's not one readers are looking forward to.

On 5/24/2023 at 9:24 AM, Castellan said:

Brienne seems to have a good chance to survive.

I'd say that all this actually makes her survival chances worse.

Brienne is an honorable knight in the middle of a civil war, forced to swear conflicting oaths, widely despised for being a woman on a man's role. And winter is coming. George is known for being harshly realistic and not holding back any punches. I wouldn't bet on her survival. And if she survives, I have no doubt that hers won't be a happy ending.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:08 AM, chrisdaw said:

I've no doubt Brienne will be knighted and expect she will be KG but I doubt she ends the series KG because she's going to sleep with Jaime and it'd make a lot of sense for her to get pregnant by him, and I doubt a KG could remain a KG while pregnant or having so obviously broken their vow.

How will she be knighted and be a KG? It goes against GRRMS writing (non-knights being true knights than the ones who received knighthoods)

Besides Westerosi society is too sexist in nature to allow a woman (that too a potentially pregnant woman ) to become a knight 

[chrisdaw]

11 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How will she be knighted and be a KG? It goes against GRRMS writing (non-knights being true knights than the ones who received knighthoods)

Besides Westerosi society is too sexist in nature to allow a woman (that too a potentially pregnant woman ) to become a knight 

All it takes is a knight to knight someone, Jaime will knight her. Cersei will accuse Sansa of murdering Joffrey and Sansa will demand a trial of seven, most likely Jaime will knight Brienne then so that she can fight in Sansa's defence. Brienne will be in Tyrion's KG as Sansa and Jaime will be heavy in the running of that administration.

[Aebram]

Apparently she already is a knight. Renly appointed her to his kingsguard. Wouldn't she need to be knighted before that?

Hoping to answer my own question, I looked at the text (Clash 22), and found that

Quote

She [Catelyn] heard King Renly declare the Lady Brienne of Tarth the victor of the great melee at Bitterbridge, last mounted of one hundred sixteen knights.

 

[chrisdaw]

Quote

So far he had been true to his word, and Brienne had been true to hers. Podrick had not complained. Every time he raised a new blister on his sword hand, he felt the need to show it to her proudly. He took good care of their horses too. He is still no squire, she reminded herself, but I am no knight, no matter how many times he calls me "ser." She would have sent him on his way, but he had nowhere to go. Besides, though Podrick said he did not know where Sansa Stark had gone, it might be that he knew more than he realized. Some chance remark, half-remembered, might hold the key to Brienne's quest.

 

[Gilbert Green]

Brienne has been hanged by Stoneheart.  Her spirit will appear in dreams and visions as a humanistic embodiment of the god-hood (Maiden), alongside Ned (Father), Catelyn (Mother) and Robb (Warrior) and who knows who else.  

Meanwhile, her corpse will walk the earth, inhabited by an evil spirit.  It will wear the Hound helm, be mistaken for Sandor, and probably fight Robert Strong.  It will hunt and slay kingslayers:  Jaime, Gregor, and Stannis.  It maybe eventually go after Sansa and try to kill her.  Which will confuse Sansa, and distract her from guessing the true identity of another tall mystery knight in her general vicinity.

[The Sleeper]

On 5/28/2023 at 8:49 PM, The hairy bear said:

I'd say that all this actually makes her survival chances worse.

Brienne is an honorable knight in the middle of a civil war, forced to swear conflicting oaths, widely despised for being a woman on a man's role. And winter is coming. George is known for being harshly realistic and not holding back any punches. I wouldn't bet on her survival. And if she survives, I have no doubt that hers won't be a happy ending.

How was she forced to swear her oaths? They were quite voluntary if I recall. 

Part of her predicament is the fact that she's sworn to three different sides with different agendas. 

[Hippocras]

It is not only about the parallel to her ancestor Dunk.

It is also about all of the signs pointing to Brienne having Jamie's legacy in her hands. Jamie's weirwood dream provoked him to go back and save her from the bear, and she will save him from being remembered simply as a villain, and the stories of Kingsguard are written in the White Book. She will therefore be the one to finish his story in the White Book. Only the LC of the Kingsguard can do that. This is why I am pretty sure the show did not get this detail wrong.

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is also about all of the signs pointing to Brienne having Jamie's legacy in her hands.

And specifically, he says Sansa Stark is his last chance for honour, and that is the quest he gave Brienne. I reckon they both go questing eastwards. Jaime's not a top tier character, but all that sun imagery he carries is top tier imagery for a tale about never ending winter and a Long Night. I think he has to finish his arc before the world resets itself, and that means being the sun that rose in the west and sets in the east, because he'll die there.

At one point, he remembers his war horses - too many to name because they all die - which I like to think is a symbol of the sun dying and being reborn every day. (GRRM's horses usually reflect the rider very closely, and most riders with a dead horse die themselves, irrc.)

[chrisdaw]

12 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is not only about the parallel to her ancestor Dunk.

It is also about all of the signs pointing to Brienne having Jamie's legacy in her hands. Jamie's weirwood dream provoked him to go back and save her from the bear, and she will save him from being remembered simply as a villain, and the stories of Kingsguard are written in the White Book. She will therefore be the one to finish his story in the White Book. Only the LC of the Kingsguard can do that. This is why I am pretty sure the show did not get this detail wrong.

I disagree because I believe the point is that Jaime will be remembered to the masses as a villain, his honour and reputation is a sacrifice (one of his many) in service to the realm. Only those in close proximity will know the real person and there'll be no chance of changing the public image, they won't even try.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I disagree because I believe the point is that Jaime will be remembered to the masses as a villain, his honour and reputation is a sacrifice (one of his many) in service to the realm. Only those in close proximity will know the real person and there'll be no chance of changing the public image, they won't even try.

He is part villain, part hero. Basically the greyest character of all. The story starts with him trying to murder a child. Brienne would in no way conceal that fact, which she is perfectly aware of. I am not trying to say Brienne will turn him into a hero, but she will add his FULL story to the White Book.

Jamie's conversations with Tywin were basically all about legacy. He is upset by the name Kingslayer because he knows he saved an entire city of people with that act. There is no other character who struggles quite as much with honour, and what it actually means. His weirwood dream was basically a bunch of monstrous Lannister ghosts trying to force him down into the bowels of Casterly Rock and him resisting with Brienne's help. I am curious what you think that actually means if not a metaphor for how he is remembered?

[Lord of Oldstones]

It would be intresting if the bloodline of Rohanne and Dunk merge up but i only see it going through out of wedlock route. It would be so good if Jaime abandons Cersei and stays by Brienne. Brienne-Hyle Hunt match and she ending her day in quiet of Tarth with army of babies would please me just as well. 

However, author has not only made her ugly but broken her completely with part of face gone..many teeths  and 20 yr old lady looking like 50.She deserves good end but she is unlikely to get one.

[chrisdaw]

23 hours ago, Hippocras said:

He is part villain, part hero. Basically the greyest character of all. The story starts with him trying to murder a child. Brienne would in no way conceal that fact, which she is perfectly aware of. I am not trying to say Brienne will turn him into a hero, but she will add his FULL story to the White Book.

Jamie's conversations with Tywin were basically all about legacy. He is upset by the name Kingslayer because he knows he saved an entire city of people with that act. There is no other character who struggles quite as much with honour, and what it actually means. His weirwood dream was basically a bunch of monstrous Lannister ghosts trying to force him down into the bowels of Casterly Rock and him resisting with Brienne's help. I am curious what you think that actually means if not a metaphor for how he is remembered?

Jaime will be Hand, more so than knighthood he's about what it means to be Hand, and the position of Hand is about serving the realm above everything, as GRRM coined the term, the King eats the Hand takes the shit.

A large part of it is about serving the realm above one's own House. Tywin was a great Hand but he served House Lannister more than what a Hand should and sought to reach higher for himself than what was good for the realm. Jaime is to become the ultimate servant and shed entirely his self interest and that of House Lannister, Tywin was in this regard for the purpose of comparison to what Jaime will be. One of the defining traits of the Lannisters is that they're self interested more so than any other House and I would suggest that's what the Bowels/Heart of Casterly Rock represents and what Jaime is to overcome, and I suppose Brienne is to help him in this. If Brienne can step outside the box that confines a woman, particularly to the angst of her father, then surely Jaime can step outside the defining traits of his House and his father too.

I think Jaime is going to end up saving the world, few will know it but Brienne will. I don't dislike the idea of the White Book recording Jaime's truth, but even if it happens I don't believe it'll cut through to the masses, he'll be reviled as a villain despite having given everything in service for the realm.

I believe Tyland Lannister is a parallel for Jaime along the lines of these themes, in the aftermath of the Dance Tyland took no revenge for himself or his team, he forgot all and governed in the interest of the realm and its future.

[Hippocras]

@chrisdaw I have absolutely zero belief in the notion that Jamie will be Hand. Zero. I don't know where people get that from.  He is going to die. Maybe near the very end, and not imminently but he WILL die. I tend to agree he is likely to do some heroic things first. But also some terrible, stupid things. And then he will die, and Tyrion will not be able to save him.

Yes, he did have a conversation with Cersei near the beginning about being Hand, but his rejection was definitive just as much as Arya's rejection of being a Lady and marrying a King was definitive. People seem to believe it more easily of Arya than Jamie, but why? They were both telling the absolute truth about themselves.

The only way I can see him being Hand is temporarily, for Cersei, and only because she forces him to. If that happens then it is not a situation that will last.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Hippocras

[chrisdaw]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:09 PM, Hippocras said:

Yes, he did have a conversation with Cersei near the beginning about being Hand, but his rejection was definitive just as much as Arya's rejection of being a Lady and marrying a King was definitive. People seem to believe it more easily of Arya than Jamie, but why? They were both telling the absolute truth about themselves.

You don't seem to understand that this is a story of character arcs.