Lefty Internal Politics: How to Talk About This Stuff?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

23 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

Feeling feisty. Will weigh in. Want it or not, hear I cum:

I've been raped. I'm not, strictly speaking, a real girl... but I find the "Believe All Women" slogan to be lazy and infantilizing. Never thought it was a worthwhile tagline. Not even because I think there's a bunch of gals out there making false rape claims, but because you're -by definition- assuming out of hand that a woman might not be capable of lying. Or if she is, that it doesn't matter; the man's (or other woman's perhaps, yikes, how do we resolve that?) innocence is irrelevant in the face of an accusation. 

I don't even BELIEVE in justice and still that's a fucking appalling moral presupposition in the pursuit of equality and protection of all persons. ALL persons. I think Bill Maher said "governing by hashtag" when talking about terminally online liberals and their concepts of social constructiveness: Correct.

Ugh, I don't know what to say, but I am really fucking sorry that you had to go through that.

I agree that governing by hashtag, or even trying to talk about real problems via hashtag, was doomed from the start. Great for rallying and communication during a critical event, but beyond that, it's kind of ruined our politics.

24 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

Drag Queen Story Hour- I've referenced this once before. I think I said something along the lines of "I just hope parents are taking their kids to the library independent of the freak show." 

I do not understand what it is about Drag Queening that is supposed to link to teaching kids to read. This legitimately confuses me, except that it is -obviously- a vehicle by which to advance public pro-somethingness or other. What is it, exactly, about a garishly accoutered, frankly whorishly, outfitted gentleman reading a picture book that is so precious to liberals that conservative discontent over this (in my opinion fucking weird) activity is so allegedly revealing as to their horridness as a people? Serious question. Please educate me, because I'm a trans person. I rode my bike to the library every fucking day (often to talk to a lot of y'all, no internet) when I was young. I think it's fucking weird. I'm not disputing your right to expose your kids to whatever weirdness you wanna; but I'll stick my neck out in this space saying I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with a conservative, liberal, or anything-at-all parent who doesn't understand what the fuck that's all about.  

Honestly, I don't see what's so odd about drag queen story hour. As long as they're not doing their midnight standup routine, drag queens are basically gender-crossed clowns. Would I take my kids to one? Probably not. But if people want to see a funny person dressed in wild clothes and make-up, acting like a living cartoon, why not?

Also, how common is this type of event? Based on right wing coverage, I'd say it's as common as someone ordering a latte a Starbucks. But forgive me if I'm dubious about the possibility that they're overblowing things just a smidge.

One thing that I will agree with to some extent is that there are sometimes some gay pride events that allow kids but don't control for content. Someone dancing a mankini, sure, but like, leave the strapons at home if the event is all ages. It's pretty simple stuff, and it should be an easy win in terms of preventing the right wingers from actually seeming to have a point.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

35 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

-by definition- assuming out of hand that a woman might not be capable of lying. Or if she is, that it doesn't matter;

i dont think that is true at all

[Varysblackfyre321]

34 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

I just don't understand it, and actually have a hard time not-understanding why someone might think it's inappropriate: Not exactly age-appropriate, no matter your ideology 

You know I used to watch a lot of wrestling when I was younger, like  WWe, real wrestling you know. One storyline I remember distinctly was a man dressing in drag with the joke being pretending to be his sister in order to win the women’s wrestling championship. And it was a months long bit culminating with him getting fired by Donald trump in a guest appearance.

We can’t make that type of story today.

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Part sure. But bigger part is instilling a sense of apathy towards their growing authoritarianism and instilling the idea that the true threats to freedom of speech and other pretty phrases is some woke college students. 

True. Though the reaction of the woke college students feeds right into their narrative trap about threats to free speech. Protest the fuck out of shit like Charlottesville, but I say let the 5 neckbeards in your school have their time with their Troll-of-the-Week as a sad little non-event. Otherwise you're playing their game, giving them the oxygen that they wouldn't otherwise have, ironically.

Of course, this trolling works because there is a universal human desire for moral clarity. I can admit, watching shits like Richard Spencer get clocked feels good. I watched that video a few times. Moral clarity, and the feeling that justice is being served in some dramatic and readily observable way, feels good. But that's the lure to their trap, and giving into it just makes the world closer to what they want it to be. I think of the old Dead Kennedys song "Riot," not just for riots but for any type of dramatic confrontation with an authoritarian force just goading you into action. "Playing right into their hands." 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

the don’t say gay bill was defended by even self-professed “liberals” as being not as bad as people said—it’d just meant teachers can’t give any instruction to  1-3 graders! Then it was 1-12 graders. And now whole list of books have been shunted from the library for Lgbt friendly deems and a teacher is under investigation for showing a Disney with a gay character and barely a whiff talk from the “liberal” media. 

Sure, the bad faith shit complicates everything, but at some point the right shows their true face. The liberals who defended that bill though were not being reasonable though, because 1) it's not about free speech, it's limiting speech, and 2) it's based on a phony premise in the first place, a proposed solution to a phantom problem. So maybe liberals defended it, but it doesn't sound like they did so based on liberal or free speech arguments.

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Also instilling a sense of apathy/hostility of more left wing people to the Democratic Party and institutional power.

Is Jimmy dore woke to you? Briana grey joy? I’m assuming you know who these people are and how militantly they go after democrats and liberals as too weak willed and two faced to accomplish anything. 

I don't know them. I'm not against passionate advocates in general, and there will always be a push and pull of people saying too slow vs too fast. Sometimes the push and pull can get heated. That's fine. I think it's fine and often valid to complain about establishment liberals being weak willed and politicians being two-faced. Though that shit can get to you in a bad way. I used to watch TYT, and it made me want to retreat from political activity, because it highlighted, nonstop, how shitty and disappointing everything is. Not healthy, so rather than give up on politics I gave up on them.

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s not uncommon, it’s a universal thing that any cognitive and  mobile person has done and will continue to do.

You misunderstand—my problem isn’t pushing forward the idea that a person could be lying about being sexually assaulted—it’s utilizing irrelevant instances of the accusers perceived  moral failures to discredit them.

I recall an instance where a female rapper lied about having a sexual relationship with she accused of shooting at her. She did lie about the sexual relationship—that doesn’t mean she lied about getting shot by the person who shot at her.

Again, there's nothing wrong with arguing forcefully against the utilization of irrelevant instances to speak about an accuser's perceived moral failures. It's just that shutting down and silencing someone for raising a concern in good faith isn't in any way reasonable or warranted.

But, let me be clear: your clear and strongly felt desire to protect women in need, that's admirable. It doesn't justify illiberal actions like that, but I commend your heart.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Jace, Extat]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh it can help in the process  normalizing gender non-conformity to children as they grow older to not immediately alarm or disgust at someone being gender nonconforming on a smaller scale

Though I do think it’s necessary to go much further in the inoculation as to avoid equating gender non-conformity with a clownish performance—though that’d still be a step up from how the right has chosen to mark drag queens which is ubiquitously would be child rapists and secret communists.

Bigotry is often grounded in a infantile sense of disgust towards the unfamiliar or different.

From what I’ve seen they’ dress as modestly as the standard clown, or Disney Princess actor when performing to kids.

Ever see young kids go up to and inspect a Ronald McDonald statue? It’s fun to watch.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

 

Honestly, I don't see what's so odd about drag queen story hour. As long as they're not doing their midnight standup routine, drag queens are basically gender-crossed clowns. Would I take my kids to one? Probably not. But if people want to see a funny person dressed in wild clothes and make-up, acting like a living cartoon, why not?

Also, how common is this type of event? Based on right wing coverage, I'd say it's as common as someone ordering a latte a Starbucks. But forgive me if I'm dubious about the possibility that they're overblowing things just a smidge.

 

 

Just gonna reply to you both in one area: 

I do not dispute your RIGHT to have a Drag Queen Story Hour at any venue that allows for such activities. Your children are your property, you can do with them as you please. 

But it seriously alarms me that not-wanting to have your kids go to Drag Queen Story Hour is somehow perceived as wrong or a moral failing. I will never have children, but I wouldn't be interested in taking them to such a farce. I wouldn't take them to see a clown read a book either. A Disney Princess I feel differently about, there's lots of Princesses in books. 

But that's irrelevant. Those are MY feelings. Mine. I don't like clowns, don't think they belong outside of Life Expectancy if I'm in a library. And I definitely, as something of a non-binary myself, don't think that kids have to be exposed to self-expression like a chicken pox party if you're otherwise doing your job as a parent. Imitation can be self-expression. But most kids who can't read for themselves yet don't know the difference. 

And again, all this is not to say that I dispute anybody's right to have their under-age property read to by anything at all to their hearts' desire. But c'mon. Varys you openly state that it's a stratagem to expose the young and impressionable to gender-subversive ideas. Like that's in your fucking mission statement. 

But folks who don't want such things for their young, confusable, and impressionable children are inherently bigots??? Maybe they just want the kid to develop on their own. 

I really really resent this subject precisely because I'm now stuck trying to explain why some otherwise-perfectly-normal people might turn to Fox News and the like because that's the only place you're allowed to have an honestly, but not necessarily bigoted, negative opinion of a very very radical (expressly radical) activity. 

This kind of shit drives me up a wall, and is what I'm talking about when I (speaking for myself only) criticize my liberal allies. And again, again, again, this is not to say that I dispute your right to do as you please with your children when teaching them to read. I just find it disingenuous to the extreme to suggest that conservatives (my fucking opponents in a battle for the soul of my country) are wrong when they point out that you're using a stratagem to subvert childrens' conceptions of their sexual identity. Because that's literally what you're doing. 

I don't like having to pretend I can't see that.

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

Just gonna reply to you both in one area: 

I do not dispute your RIGHT to have a Drag Queen Story Hour at any venue that allows for such activities. Your children are your property, you can do with them as you please. 

But it seriously alarms me that not-wanting to have your kids go to Drag Queen Story Hour is somehow perceived as wrong or a moral failing. I will never have children, but I wouldn't be interested in taking them to such a farce. I wouldn't take them to see a clown read a book either. A Disney Princess I feel differently about, there's lots of Princesses in books. 

I don't think it's a moral failing. As I said, I probably wouldn't take my kids to a drag queen story hour, and that preference has nothing to do with my attitude towards drag queens or gay people. I mean, after all, I don't even have kids but I do have a twin brother who's a Radical Fairy. 

I also am at least a little ambivalent about the efforts to change hearts and minds through social programming. At its most zealous and micro-managy I get creeped out, another "flipside" inversion of the right wing. Did Will and Grace help the larger population accept gay people? Probably. But the level of attention to such engineering these days is insane. 

 

[Rippounet]

6 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

i guess it doesnt matter but one is not like the other tho, fascist kill anyone that isnt white, antifa "kill" fascists. antifa dogma is dont be a fascist, thats an ok dogma in my book.

For the record, according to this paper (the first one I found tbh, though it seems reliable), the far-right accounted for 84,4% of politically motivated homicides in the US from 1990 to 2020, the far-left for 15,6%. It is sadly not true that far-left criminals only targeted fascists. However, interestingly enough, it seems not a single homicide was attributed to anti-fascist activism until mid-2020 (when an anti-fascist did, in fact, kill a fascist, before being killed by the police).

Even accounting for some margin of error (qualitative or quantitative), I don't think we can say antifa kil fascists. Such cases remain rare enough to be deemed exceptional.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Rippounet

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

course, this trolling works because there is a universal human desire for moral clarity. I can admit, watching shits like Richard Spencer get clocked feels good. I watched that video a few times. Moral clarity, and the feeling that justice is being served in some dramatic and readily observable way, feels good. But that's the lure to their trap, and giving into it just makes the world closer to what they want it to be. I

But after he kept getting attacked he just became socially irrelevant and not talked about.

I recently learned about neo nazi leader who was popular in the 90s who got sued immensely and financially ruined for his rhetoric that did inspire violent action.

8 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

Disney Princess I feel differently about, there's lots of Princesses in books. 

How about a drag queen dresses as a princess?

9 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

I definitely, as something of a non-binary myself, don't think that kids have to be exposed to self-expression like a chicken pox party if you're otherwise doing your job as a parent.

Yeah they do. conservatives are right in terms how this sort of exposure potentially having a long lasting effect on how people perceive gender minorities or sexual minorities especially when there are cultural forces around ttelling the kids x group is dangerous.

12 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

Varys you openly state that it's a stratagem to expose the young and impressionable to gender-subversive ideas. Like that's in your fucking mission statement. 

 

Yeah in the 1960s I’d be pushing more for children’s programming to include non-white people in order to promote racially-subversive ideas. 
 

 

17 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

But it seriously alarms me that not-wanting to have your kids go to Drag Queen Story Hour is somehow perceived as wrong or a moral failing.

No one here has done and if that ever happens it is as infinitesimally rare as shaming people for not taking your kid to drag queen story hour.

20 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

But folks who don't want such things for their young, confusable, and impressionable children are inherently bigots??? Maybe they just want the kid to develop on their own. 

I guess I question what’s the fear of influence in terms of development.

Like for instance worrying that’ll turn your kid queer, which is really common expressed worry for parenting who constantly fret over drag queen story hour yeah I’ll do the whole thing and say that’s bigoted.

24 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

really really resent this subject precisely because I'm now stuck trying to explain why some otherwise-perfectly-normal people might turn to Fox News and the like because that's the only place you're allowed to have an honestly, but not necessarily bigoted, negative opinion of a very very radical (expressly radical) activity. 

Hey remember bugs bunny? Mrs.Doutfire? Rudy Giuliani? When they did drag it was harmless goof. It’s only recently that drag queens or doing drag in a performance has gotten this moral panic associated with it.

27 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

I just find it disingenuous to the extreme to suggest that conservatives (my fucking opponents in a battle for the soul of my country) are wrong when they point out that you're using a stratagem to subvert childrens' conceptions of their sexual identity. Because that's literally what you're doing. 

Hmm Notice how I didn’t mention sexual identity in my previous post to you, just gender-nonconformity, which I guess can argue being non-heterosexual may fall under but eh.

I’ve never said conservatives were wrong entirely about what the point of events like drag queen story hour are .

I do tend to support/like entertainment being given to kids that can potentially help shape them to not along with or fight against  the cultural right’ want to erase/ exterminate people they see as degenerates.

Am I supposed to feel ashamed at this? Am I supposed join in the conservative bemoaning of a show depicting lgbt conservatives as being inappropriate?

[Varysblackfyre321]

46 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I also am at least a little ambivalent about the efforts to change hearts and minds through social programming.

It works. That’s how certain cultural mores are formed and maintained lines of edict are established. Through encouraging certain behaviors as socially acceptable and discouraging certain behavior as worth ostracism.

We’re a social species, individuals want to fit in the group hegemony.

Conservatives generally  get this and love it when liberals handicap themselves or handicap progressive movements by treating certain things between a gentleman’s arguement.

46 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But the level of attention to such engineering these days is insane. 

It’s not nearly enough.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[sologdin]

Maybe they just want the kid to develop on their own. 

is that something that happens? isn't consciousness by contrast a product of labor? the right knows this, which is why they want to capture school boards, indoctrinate through religion, and control mass culture. video games cause savagery, not guns, they argue.  ban books, not firearms, they contend. the blade itself does not incite to deeds of violence, but rather rock music and role playing games.  to let them develop on their own is to allow the right to groom them into little stormtroopers.

[Conflicting Thought]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah in the 1960s I’d be pushing more for children’s programming to include non-white people in order to promote racially-subversive ideas. 

thank you! like wtf, and this person in supposed to be a lefty? although i supposed if secretary is a liberal it shouldnt surprise me to much.

i guess im making the point of the op, but damn.

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

thank you! like wtf, and this person in supposed to be a lefty? although i supposed if secretary is a liberal it shouldnt surprise me to much.

i guess im making the point of the op, but damn.

Eh it’s a take a leftist can have to and she’s still part of what makes up the “left” in America from what I’ve witnessed. 
Some people close to me politically have takes I find terrible. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Phylum of Alexandria]

29 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But after he kept getting attacked he just became socially irrelevant and not talked about.

Well, Spencer was never nearly the attention whore that trolls like Milo Y were. I imagine he's still doing shit out of the spotlight.

And the rise of antifa helped recruiting efforts for the Proud Boys and paramilitary groups, and even some normal communities-turned-ragtag vigilante against the "antifa" threat. A sort of anti-antifa, provoking anyone they think might be part of the enemy group. Which, to be honest, was true of antifa itself. I totally get the feeling behind the movement, but how much actual good did it do? I don't think much at all. 

[Jace, Extat]

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But after he kept getting attacked he just became socially irrelevant and not talked about.

I recently learned about neo nazi leader who was popular in the 90s who got sued immensely and financially ruined for his rhetoric that did inspire violent action.

How about a drag queen dresses as a princess?

Yeah they do. conservatives are right in terms how this sort of exposure potentially having a long lasting effect on how people perceive gender minorities or sexual minorities especially when there are cultural forces around ttelling the kids x group is dangerous.

Yeah in the 1960s I’d be pushing more for children’s programming to include non-white people in order to promote racially-subversive ideas. 
 

 

No one here has done and if that ever happens it is as infinitesimally rare as shaming people for not taking your kid to drag queen story hour.

I guess I question what’s the fear of influence in terms of development.

Like for instance worrying that’ll turn your kid queer, which is really common expressed worry for parenting who constantly fret over drag queen story hour yeah I’ll do the whole thing and say that’s bigoted.

Hey remember bugs bunny? Mrs.Doutfire? Rudy Giuliani? When they did drag it was harmless goof. It’s only recently that drag queens or doing drag in a performance has gotten this moral panic associated with it.

Hmm Notice how I didn’t mention sexual identity in my previous post to you, just gender-nonconformity, which I guess can argue being non-heterosexual may fall under but eh.

I’ve never said conservatives were wrong entirely about what the point of events like drag queen story hour are .

I do tend to support/like entertainment being given to kids that can potentially help shape them to not along with or fight against  the cultural right’ want to erase/ exterminate people they see as degenerates.

Am I supposed to feel ashamed at this? Am I supposed join in the conservative bemoaning of a show depicting lgbt conservatives as being inappropriate?

I knew I was, like, a girl without Drag Queen Hour. Because it's something innate, not learned. Anybody can learn anything. That's what impressing means upon the impressionable. 

And no, I would not want to influence a single child into wanting to be transgender ever. It's hard. It's confusing. It's lonely and you have to take medicines for the rest of your life (if you can afford them) and look forward to surgical reconstruction of your reproductive organs (again, if you can afford them). 

I would never want to influence someone into thinking they identify with the opposite sex. 

I also think that (essential) healthcare should be free and anybody who is transgender should be able to get the treatments they need as soon as they're a legal adult - And goddammit if I had the money and resources (maybe sooner than you think) I'd make it my mission to get every trans person in America the care they deserve. AFTER they realize they're trans on their own. 

Mrs. Doutfire is hilarious. Every kid should see every Robin Williams movie wherein he doesn't play a serial killer or the saddest robot to ever be a living person. It had nothing to do with the fact that I turned out trans. There's a serious disconnect somewhere where liberals cry foul that conservatives accuse them of trying to turn their kids non-binary, then state "yes, that's exactly what we're doing." 

Wut? 

2 minutes ago, sologdin said:

Maybe they just want the kid to develop on their own. 

is that something that happens? isn't consciousness by contrast a product of labor? the right knows this, which is why they want to capture school boards, indoctrinate through religion, and control mass culture. video games cause savagery, not guns, they argue.  ban books, not firearms, they contend. the blade itself does not incite to deeds of violence, but rather rock music and role playing games.  to let them develop on their own is to allow the right to groom them into little stormtroopers.

I disagree. Didn't the counter-culture of the sixties and seventies spring out from a bunch of Ultra-conservative veteran parents after the war ended? Like, that's what happened right? I haven't read a U.S. Social Studies textbook in a while but I'm pretty sure that's what happened. 

Yes, role models are important. 

Will and Grace was mentioned earlier, personally I think of Neil Patrick Harris a lot as an excellent role model when he was openly and awesomely gay while playing the most hilariously womanizing character in the history of sitcom. 

But to Will and Grace, or even Ellen... that's an example. Of someone experiencing success. Getting a show made is fucking hard, and it's an impossible achievement to dismiss when you're pioneering something like gay characters. That is showing success for an underrepresented community. Earned success. 

Dressing up and reading a book in a deliberately friendly space is not brave. It doesn't require anything admirable except an ability to read and be displayed. That is your purview, your choice to make on your own if you so desire; as is taking your children to such proceedings. 

I don't think it is nearly as impressive a feat as what the Wachowskis did and frankly (maybe a little too frank) I think it's pathetic to overstate the value of such practices. 

You wanna talk about being brave: Those bitches couldn't even have their own stand-in trans character displayed in their movie: made it anyway and I guaran-goddamn-tee you that The Matrix turned more little boys and girls onto the idea that there might be safe spaces to be different than any dude in a dress reading Dr. Seuss ever will. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, Spencer was never nearly the attention whore that trolls like Milo Y were. I imagine he's still doing shit out of the spotlight.

I don’t care if he’s paying random black trans women to piss on him so long as he’s politically neutered I’m fine with his existence.

You recognize it’s less important to change the woke’s mind as it is to mitigate their threat level to movements you support. I am just using the same logic in terms of dealing with people who’d more threat to democracy and human rights.

4 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And the rise of antifa helped recruiting efforts for the Proud Boys and paramilitary groups,

The rise of Anti-fa  because people got sick of the proud boys and right wing militia  murdering and brutalizing, terrorizing  their left wing and progressives opposition.

9 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

A sort of anti-antifa,

Yeah  you can just say fascists.

They’re anti-anti fascist.

10 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I totally get the feeling behind the movement, but how much actual good did it do? I don't think much at all. 

Who can say? I think it’d helped invigorate a lot of progressives and leftists into seeing repudiation as a thing they can personally help do even on a small scale.

Its nice to people you share a commonality with respond to people who see as victimizing people like you, or people you love with strength.

How much did good did the stone wall rioters do  for gay rights in comparison to the amount of good done through years of civil request and cooing for harmony by the log cabin republicans?

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

18 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

I would not want to influence a single child into wanting to be transgender ever.

Yeah point to one segment of my post where I said I want to turn kids trans.

[Jace, Extat]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Yeah point to one segment of my post where I said I want to turn kids trans.

I never said you did. I said "I" do not. And I said it more-or-less in response to:

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

I guess I question what’s the fear of influence in terms of development.

 

To me the fear is that I could suggest that trans-ness is intrinsic to my value as a person or an artist. It is not.

People are stupid and impressionable - especially children. And yes, I think they should be given reasonable discouragement from seeing something novel and thinking they identify as the same. Especially in a climate where their parents or medical providers might think that said (reasonable!) challenges to their newfound identification could lead to the child's death if they don't wholesale support their new gender identity. Which isn't -really- a problem if they're not taking medicines. Kid throws a baseball cap backwards, thinks he's trans for a weekend but then realizes she's just gay - no harm done. 

But you don't have to be Jonah Ryan to think that caution is advisable when dealing with very very new realities of the human experience in children. 

(Trans-ness isn't new, old as humans. But the life-altering and irreparable introduction of drugs and SRS's IS NEW and should be approached with care.) 

 

When I was first researching Transgender-ness (with a stolen Computer ID login so that the school couldn't trace such activities to me (yes, I actually did that in HighSchool)) there was a lot of rigors involved in being trans. As there should be with life-altering decisions. Meanwhile, in the last five years or so I've read too many comments and articles about how medical providers see providing Gender-Affirming care as a fucking crusade instead of a medical intervention to a non-acute (but important!) diagnosis. 

One, ONE, parent being told that by not approving hormones or SRS for their minor that they're potentially killing their child is too many. And the fact that the medical providers are trying to help doesn't change the fact that you can hurt people with well intentioned medicines. I can't believe I have to go to such lengths to explain this. 

I am not anti-Gender-Affirming care. I receive it myself. I WISH I had grown up in a household where I might have felt safe sharing my true self with my family and/or school and friends. Could have received HRT (after APPROPRIATE COUNSELING) around puberty. That doesn't mean that I think it's wise to make a social totem out of what's supposed to be a personal development of oneself and identity. 

No, the Republicans are not in the right with their Don't Say Gay stuff and banning books. It's fucking appalling. 

But that doesn't make you right either just because you're bola-ing to the opposite.  

 

I knew I was trans because I wanted to be a girl. Not because my (first) stepfather put his dick in me, and not because of Mrs. Doutfire. 

Because I'm fucking trans. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

29 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

People are stupid and impressionable - especially children. And yes, I think they should be given reasonable discouragement from seeing something novel and thinking they identify as the same. Especially in a climate where their parents or medical providers might think that said (reasonable!) challenges to their newfound identification could lead to the child's death if they don't wholesale support their new gender identity. W

Yeah this how some  libs will get us back to sodomy laws and anti-cross dressing.

Gotta protect the kids from potential social contagion.

“I personally don’t mind the gays and trans—but keep it private in the bedroom.”

Oh and laws against lgbt propaganda.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321
Specificcation; noting

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah this how libs will get us back to sodomy laws and anti-cross dressing back on the menu to protect the kids from potential social contagion.

“I don’t personally don’t mind the gays and trans—but keep it private in the bedroom.”

There was less pushback against transness and non-binaryness five years ago than there is now. Making something a political standard invites pushback. Making it about something wherein there -are- legitimate concerns regarding the (VERY DIFFICULT) treatment of children is just fucking stupid. 

In case I haven't made it clear; I don't actually care what any of you do with your children. What disturbs me most is that I see a lot of very excited people who don't seem to understand that they're in a political salient (one that concerns me) and are too Pride Blind to see it. I don't like being attached to salients unless I'm defending Kursk in 1943, and even then I'd rather be anywhere else on the line. 

My sister and my brother-in-law let me stay with them for the better part of a year when my Nice Liberal Always-On-The-Right-Side-of-Twitter-Law gay roommates decided they didn't need me no more and sent my ass packing back to Indianastan just weeks after reaffirming that we were cool for another year of coexistence. My brother-in-law and sister are Trump voting conservatives, and if their son started sucking dick I don't have a single doubt in my mind that they'd have his back. But they get nervous when stuff like this comes up. Influencing stuff. I understand that, and I cannot condemn them for it no matter how wildly people who are too enthusiastic about their in-group doomsay about the future. 

DeSantis is taking advantage of people who just don't want their children to be harmed by stuff that's new and they're unfamiliar with, and obviously a fair amount of bigots are tagging along. 

I do not see the social utility in continuing to antagonize these people about an issue that adds nothing to the liberalization of this country. I see it like a debuff, to use videogame parlance. A debuff for me (making conservatives madder at Trans people who don't get to quietly pass or live in states that protect us) and for the cause as a whole by, again, making them madder at what they see as weirdness and impression on their child rearing. Like a Helm of Cutting Off One's Nose to Spite One's Face

 

Again, again, again. Please understand that this is a politics thread. I'm filtering all of this through a political lens. And what makes California and Oregon parents warm and gooey inside when it comes to social construction don't play so well where I live. 

And yes, liberals antagonize conservatives about this. In the last few months I have seen more sneering references to conservative panic about Drag Queen Hour than I have to the fact that they're all tacitly complicit in an attempted overthrow of my government. THAT is where my irritation really comes from. You're all wasting your time with this horseshit social tinkering when the Reichstag is burning. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, Secretary of Eumenes said:

There was less pushback against transness and non-binaryness five years ago than there is now.

Because most of the attention before then was mainly on the gays.

Cultural Conservatives need a whipping dog.

Quote

On a Saturday afternoon in August 2019, South Dakota Republican state Rep. Fred Deutsch sent an email to 18 anti-trans activists, doctors, and lawyers with the text of a bill he planned to introduce that would make it a felony for doctors to give transgender children under 16 gender-affirming medical care. “I have no doubt this will be an uphill battle when we get to session,” Deutsch warned the group. “As always, please do not share this with the media. The longer we can fly under the radar the better.”

The message was one in a trove of emails obtained by Mother Jones between Deutsch and representatives of a network of activists and organizations at the forefront of the anti-trans movement. They show the degree to which these activists shaped Deutsch’s repressive legislation, a version of which was signed into law in February, and the tactics, alliances, and goals of a movement that has sought to foist their agenda on a national scale. 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/03/anti-trans-transgender-health-care-ban-legislation-bill-minors-children-lgbtq/

Are you seriously naive to think if liberals and left just stopped talking about transgender people  that suddenly conservatives  would back off?

Edited May 26, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321