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Worst father-son relationship in the series ?


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What is the worst relationship between a father and his son ever depicted in ASOIAF, taking in account both the main series, the "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" prequels, and and the other books of the series ? 

Both biological and adopted father-son relations count. 

Also I exclude the cases where the father and son(s) didn't even had a relationship, with the son not even living with his father for at least several years and to be marked by him. So Craster giving his sons to the Others isn't taken in account.

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Another one to throw in: Randyll and Sam. Not even Tywin directly threatens to murder his son unless he goes to a monastic order (and for some reason Tywin never considers sending Tyrion to the citadel and enables his whoring by giving him money despite his public disapproval).

Edited by Angel Eyes
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8 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Rorge and Biter, it's a subvertion of the kind man adopting an orphaned simple-minded kid in the most horrific way possible. 

ugh how could I forget them

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9 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I think all of the above mentioned take the cake. I guess I'll add Walder, but he has a bad relationship with everybody.

at least with Walder, the sons couldn't get much individual attention, just the general tyranny. They turn out quite different, sink or swim on their own. Poor Merrett.

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Bad relationships aren't simply about abuse.  The estrangement and heartbreak Jeor suffers because Jorah is a lovesick moron counts but only because Jeor is such a good and loving dad.  I completely understand why Ned never told Jon the truth about his parentage.  Still I can imagine Jon's devastation at realizing he will never know the truth when he learns Ned is gone.  Can you imagine having to live the rest of your life knowing your dad could have given you the truth before he died but didn't?  That would suck forever.  

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The two worst imo are

Tywin and Tyrion: for having your son's child bride raped by all your soldiers in front of his eyes and then force him to go last

Randyl and Sam: all the toxic abuse he put Sam through to turn him into an "alpha man", and then threatening to kill him on his 16th nameday if he does not take the black.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The two worst imo are

Tywin and Tyrion: for having your son's child bride raped by all your soldiers in front of his eyes and then force him to go last

Randyl and Sam: all the toxic abuse he put Sam through to turn him into an "alpha man", and then threatening to kill him on his 16th nameday if he does not take the black.

Definitely, although most parent/child relationships are not that good.

“They fuck you up, your mum and dad, they may not mean to, but they do”, is a theme of this series.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Definitely, although most parent/child relationships are not that good.

“They fuck you up, your mum and dad, they may not mean to, but they do”, is a theme of this series.

True, but these two definitely mean to fuck up their sons. ;)

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

True, but these two definitely mean to fuck up their sons. ;)

Oh yes.

When you think about it, the upper classes make terrible parents, both in-universe, and in most of human history.

Working class parents prioritise their children’s’ safety.  Middle class parents prioritise their education.  Upper class parents prioritise power, and treat their children as pieces to be played.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Upper class parents prioritise power, and treat their children as pieces to be played.

Cue Successions piano music. 

For sure I don't think like anyone could ever claim Logan Roy to be a good dad, or like Ken to be a good son. It's a real me vs him situation, kinda similar to Balon and Theon. They're just completely at odds with each other both believing they are better and smarter then then the other. Their relationship produced anger and resentment and ended with Theon in jail and Balon disinheriting him. It's like, I don't even think Logan would have done that. But Logan and Ken and them do love each other so I think that may be similar to Balon which would just add an extra heart ache.

(Theon got two dad's though, and Eddard was terrible too. Clean Ice? Thanks dad.)

If anyone can compete with Balon tho it's Doran (who also had a terrible relationship with his daughter, made of lies and false promises very Logan/Shiv relations) The frog was just a mess, his mission to trap, ride and take command of two monsters and it was solely for daddy's approval. It's very Romulus like behavior, just doing whatever dad says, no matter a half a world away or dealing with terrorists and murderers, as long as there's a whiff of inheritance, but in the case of Quintyn and Roman, he's not nor never will be the successor. Just "Daddy's bitch boy"

(I don't really have an issue with Mace and his sons tbh but since I've gone through the whole Roy family but missing Connor I guess I'd compare him to Willas. "I am dad's oldest son, I, I, am dad oldest son" and he is, and he's probably not as useless as we think but he's clearly not his brothers and sister. Also his partner is named Willa. What a coincidence!)

 

Ok so the big two, well let's start with small one. Man killed his dad so not great, and his whole life was in the shadow of the megalomaniac so obviously that's terrible too. However the tale of Lannister and his father has long drawn parallels with Jupiter and his father. Again a tyrant who's killed by his youngest boy. But the outcome is the king of gods. Jove was no punk and it was his father who made him into the man he was. So, if everything goes right can it be bad parenting?

As I noted Tyrion and Tywin had a symbiotic relationship, both helped each other and if it weren't for one the other would fall. This concept is doubled down with another father and son duo. Bolton. Didn't start with fireworks, Roose wanted to throw him down the well, but he didn't. He recognized him and in turn Ramsay learned from him. The relations that Bolton has now produced is the annexation of the north along with dead and missing Starks, so like Tyrions relationship, is it bad when everything goes your way?

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19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cue Successions piano music. 

For sure I don't think like anyone could ever claim Logan Roy to be a good dad, or like Ken to be a good son. It's a real me vs him situation, kinda similar to Balon and Theon. They're just completely at odds with each other both believing they are better and smarter then then the other. Their relationship produced anger and resentment and ended with Theon in jail and Balon disinheriting him. It's like, I don't even think Logan would have done that. But Logan and Ken and them do love each other so I think that may be similar to Balon which would just add an extra heart ache.

(Theon got two dad's though, and Eddard was terrible too. Clean Ice? Thanks dad.)

If anyone can compete with Balon tho it's Doran (who also had a terrible relationship with his daughter, made of lies and false promises very Logan/Shiv relations) The frog was just a mess, his mission to trap, ride and take command of two monsters and it was solely for daddy's approval. It's very Romulus like behavior, just doing whatever dad says, no matter a half a world away or dealing with terrorists and murderers, as long as there's a whiff of inheritance, but in the case of Quintyn and Roman, he's not nor never will be the successor. Just "Daddy's bitch boy"

(I don't really have an issue with Mace and his sons tbh but since I've gone through the whole Roy family but missing Connor I guess I'd compare him to Willas. "I am dad's oldest son, I, I, am dad oldest son" and he is, and he's probably not as useless as we think but he's clearly not his brothers and sister. Also his partner is named Willa. What a coincidence!)

 

Ok so the big two, well let's start with small one. Man killed his dad so not great, and his whole life was in the shadow of the megalomaniac so obviously that's terrible too. However the tale of Lannister and his father has long drawn parallels with Jupiter and his father. Again a tyrant who's killed by his youngest boy. But the outcome is the king of gods. Jove was no punk and it was his father who made him into the man he was. So, if everything goes right can it be bad parenting?

As I noted Tyrion and Tywin had a symbiotic relationship, both helped each other and if it weren't for one the other would fall. This concept is doubled down with another father and son duo. Bolton. Didn't start with fireworks, Roose wanted to throw him down the well, but he didn't. He recognized him and in turn Ramsay learned from him. The relations that Bolton has now produced is the annexation of the north along with dead and missing Starks, so like Tyrions relationship, is it bad when everything goes your way?

I’m not familiar with Succession, but yes, Doran’s a terrible parent.  His son needed to be accompanied by someone like Prince Oberyn, who knew the East.

His heir, Arianne, was kept out of the loop, and that went down as well as you might expect.  No doubt, Trystane will perish miserably with Myrcella.

Doran’s punishment for his failures could well be to outlive all his children.

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