Worst father-son relationship in the series ?

[James Arryn]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:50 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Another one to throw in: Randyll and Sam. Not even Tywin directly threatens to murder his son unless he goes to a monastic order (and for some reason Tywin never considers sending Tyrion to the citadel and enables his whoring by giving him money despite his public disapproval).

True, but a couple caveats:

While there is no doubt Randyll Tarly was a brutal, unyielding father, he was also probably the most engaged father we see in the books. Constantly taking Sam on trips he hopes will be improving, hiring and firing a dozen master at arms specifically because they fail with Sam, exposing himself to ridicule by repeated betrothal attempts, having him sit in on important councils,etc. And in Sam’s own words, once he gives up on Sam he seems to devote his entire life to developing Dickon. We don’t see any other parent devote so much care to raising their own child, not even Ned. 

Secondly, about the death threat…how seriously should we take it? He seems ruthless enough, but upon recent re-reading he imo over-eggs the pudding. He tells Sam he would enjoy it…which seems way over the top, and unlikely. Remember he is considered possibly the greatest commander in Westeros. That means he can read men. Do we think Randyll thought there was ANY chance Sam defies him? Do any of us think that was even possible? And was his over the top warning a monster giving vent or a disappointed narrow-minded control freak making certain his son wouldn’t even think of defiance?

Lastly, for his time, and given his house, we can perhaps understand why his sensibilities don’t reflect those of our modern world, but indeed those of a martial feudal culture where your house’s survival can often rely on it’s leader’s abilities at war. Almost every house that went extinct that we hear about did so because of losing at war, regardless of the cause, or Harrenhal. That’s the reality of the world they live in, and not one of Tarly’s choosing. Yes, ideally he would see past Sam’s weaknesses and try and find a way to emphasize his strengths, but that would still leave Sam afraid of the sight of blood, and there’s no way his men could ever be relied on to follow such a leader, and once Randyll dies, Sam would be the man the house has to follow in war as well as in peace. That would probably mean catastrophe. Feudal leaders were expected to personally lead their men in war because personal loyalty/obligation is the only reason they are fighting in the first place. Having a leader too afraid to fight with them will almost certainly mean failure in the field, or even in the muster. Ned tells his sons to never expect someone to risk his life for a stranger…how much worse for a stranger who even won’t risk his life for his own cause but expects others to?

This isn’t like picking a career path and Sam not being interested in the family business, though there is an element of that. But it’s more about necessity. Wyman Manderly is dangerous because others think he’s craven and he isn’t. But if he was…if he was so demonstrably to the point of falling down and crying at the idea of sparring, or growing sick at the sight of blood, that would be ridiculed, disrespected and the advantage Wyman gets from people acting like they can walk all over him would be gone with the walking all over still happening. So it’s not like Randyll is just inventing his own rules.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by James Arryn

[Hugorfonics]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’m not familiar with Succession

Oh dude it's great! I couldn't recommend it higher. It's a fantastic blend of comedy and tragedy. Truly engrossing and knee slapping. They do swear a lot and that's me saying that lol and there's a decent amount of drug use (although not glorified) so idk how yould feel about that. But overall, phenomenal.

HBO's hot show, Sunday at 9 which was AGOTs slot. Lots of parallels with Thrones too, mainly the father child dynamics/ lord and prince dynamics that I touched on last post. Also tomorrow is the finale and in an interview the actor for the main character talked about his "dracarys moment" which is just awesome, (and scary!) but unlike AGOT, Succession remained a 10/10 show according to fans and critics for it's complete run. (Only 4 seasons tho)

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

but yes, Doran’s a terrible parent.  His son needed to be accompanied by someone like Prince Oberyn, who knew the East.

A terrible parent, but maybe not the worst brother to his late sister?

Thing is he was accompanied to the east. His uncle would be good but he basically committed suicide already, but that maester came with him who like could speak every language but died on route. 

The original contract, Viserys and Arianna was also terrible, at the time it's just some 6 year olds but allowing Viserys to vagabond across Essos while raising Dany and dodging assassins, who'd be good after that? And he honestly expected this traumatized guy to marry his little girl? And if course, like the maester after him, drops dead so Doran just goes down the line. It's like a contract he has no power over, that his 20 year old signature is stronger then his person and house. Its just, so terrible lol. But I agree with what you and the princely sort were saying, it's a different world then us. (Dorans wife, who was from our world, leaves him which is not medivial in our sense but so human and understanding, and of course heartbreaking)

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

His heir, Arianne, was kept out of the loop, and that went down as well as you might expect.

All he does is lie to her, for like her whole life. And after reducing her to nothing he gave her that "ray of sunlight" (succession line lol) and now she's like totally gung-ho team dad, telling her cousins that despite all common sense and history Doran can be trusted. 

(I mean the parallels with Succession here are so striking, and maybe that's why I'm thinking that, and I hope I'm wrong and Doran and Arianna are gonna have a full fledged alliance now, but that's of course despite all common sense and history)

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No doubt, Trystane will perish miserably with Myrcella.

It's one thing to push your adult children into the game even if partially blindfolded, but Trystane is just a little kid, I swear these noblemen are crazy. What did Doran gain from this engagement? What did Tyrion? When Cersei Lannister is the only voice of reason, you know somethings fucked up.

31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Doran’s punishment for his failures could well be to outlive all his children.

I think that likely. The machinations fuled by resentment and ambition imo will lead to the destruction of house Martell

[SeanF]

@James Arryn I think he’d have killed Sam if he had to.  The boy disgusted him.  Everything we see of him later is a cruel, brutal, handing down worse punishments than the law prescribes.

[SeanF]

@HugorfonicsIt’s like Jessica Atreides’ overweening ambition for her children ends up with her staring down on their two broken corpses.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@HugorfonicsIt’s like Jessica Atreides’ overweening ambition for her children ends up with her staring down on their two broken corpses.

Yea exactly. They're not bad people. Just different, and wrong

[James Arryn]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@James Arryn I think he’d have killed Sam if he had to.  The boy disgusted him.  Everything we see of him later is a cruel, brutal, handing down worse punishments than the law prescribes.

It’s definitely possible…but I think it’s entirely hypothetical, and I think Tarly knew that even better than we do. It just was never going to come up.

[Castellan]

7 hours ago, James Arryn said:

It’s definitely possible…but I think it’s entirely hypothetical, and I think Tarly knew that even better than we do. It just was never going to come up.

why do you think he refused to consider Sam becoming a Maester?

Actually I can answer my own question, I suppose it creeped him out to think of his son serving another family. Maybe that's even in the text, I can't remember. Probably almost no high born men become maesters unless they are about the seventh son or something. At least the Night's Watch is a martial organisation and considered an honorable career although not usually for the oldest son.

But Sam's going to be a Maester anyway! It just occurred to me 'Aemon Steelsong' could end up as head of House Tarly, if there are no other heirs left by the time war plague dragons and the Others are done.

[kissdbyfire]

Isn’t it easier - or at least quicker - to list the good fathers in ASoIaF?

Edited May 27, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I’m not familiar with Succession

It’s a very thinly disguised version of the life and times of Rupert Murdoch  It’s very well done, Brian Cox is fantastic as always. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[SilverGhost]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t it easier - or at least quicker - to list the good fathers in ASoIaF?

Walder Frey seems to have done a good job raising Stevron Frey, if what most characters think of Ser Stevron is any indication. 

The Red Viper taught his daughters to be independent and skill at arms/poisons. 

Considering most fathers in the series those examples stand out as close as Westeros gets to an 80's Sitcom dad.  

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, SilverGhost said:

Walder Frey seems to have done a good job raising Stevron Frey, if what most characters think of Ser Stevron is any indication. 

The Red Viper taught his daughters to be independent and skill at arms/poisons. 

Considering most fathers in the series those examples stand out as close as Westeros gets to an 80's Sitcom dad.  

Walder Frey a good father? Are you serious? He treats his whole family like either currency or staff, to put it mildly. The man has 897 kids, and one turned out alright so I’d sooner chalk that up to nature, not nurture. 
We don’t see much of the Red Viper’s relationships w/ his daughters firsthand. I find some (most?) of sand snakes annoying but I suppose I can agree that he at least looks like a good father. 

I think Ned was a good father, Egg possibly as well. And I can’t be sure he was a good father but I give plenty of brownie points to Maekar for allowing Egg to travel w/ Dunk, a nobody hedge knight. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t it easier - or at least quicker - to list the good fathers in ASoIaF?

Ned Stark.  His kids are solid citizens.  Even Arya is less bad than she would be without him.

Mace Tyrell

Hoster Tully.  His treatment of Lysa wasn't great, but in this setting, hardly surprising.

Howland Reed.  Great kids, goal oriented and capable.

Evenstar of Tarth.  Lets his daughter do her thing.

 

Probably a lot more.  Unhappy, messed-up families are more interesting to write and read about than well adjusted happy ones, so they're the ones we hear about.

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Ned Stark.  His kids are solid citizens.  Even Arya is less bad than she would be without him.

Mace Tyrell

Hoster Tully.  His treatment of Lysa wasn't great, but in this setting, hardly surprising.

Howland Reed.  Great kids, goal oriented and capable.

Evenstar of Tarth.  Lets his daughter do her thing.

 

Probably a lot more.  Unhappy, messed-up families are more interesting to write and read about than well adjusted happy ones, so they're the ones we hear about.

I agree on Reed and Selwyn Tarth, and I’m kind of neutral on Mace. But I disagree on Hoster, who I think is a total douchebag. He’s obviously not an atrocious father like Tarly, Tywin, Frey, Craster, etc, but that doesn’t make him a good father either. IMO, obviously, and probably somewhat coloured by my general dislike of the Tullys except for Edmure.

[Hugorfonics]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s a very thinly disguised version of the life and times of Rupert Murdoch

I mean kinda, although that's a bit like saying that asoiaf is disguised version of Richard III. Definitely parallels with Murdoch but I see way more King Leer..

Although I disagree with a bunch of what you were saying too. (Not Cox being fantastic, obviously he is. This actor is so scary, just wow. Entire cast is phenomenon) 

For instance Eddard was a terrible dad to the girls, he used em as bait like a fisherman. He left Bran in a coma, sent Jon to jail and threatened Theon with death every day. 

Where as Walder actually did look out for his kids, even the fuck ups like Merrett were allowed to stay at home. Even the bastards. Walder Frey was a mean grandfather, but as a dad he surprisingly looked out. 

I'm on the fence with Maekor, it seems like he made the correct decision, but idk. But even if he was good to Egg, by letting him travel the country with a stranger and a liar, he banished his other son who's misery sent him into the cups of wildfire.

But we can agree, that Hoster was a douchebag

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean kinda, although that's a bit like saying that asoiaf is disguised version of Richard III. Definitely parallels with Murdoch but I see way more King Leer..

Although I disagree with a bunch of what you were saying too. (Not Cox being fantastic, obviously he is. This actor is so scary, just wow. Entire cast is phenomenon) 

For instance Eddard was a terrible dad to the girls, he used em as bait like a fisherman. He left Bran in a coma, sent Jon to jail and threatened Theon with death every day. 

Where as Walder actually did look out for his kids, even the fuck ups like Merrett were allowed to stay at home. Even the bastards. Walder Frey was a mean grandfather, but as a dad he surprisingly looked out. 

I'm on the fence with Maekor, it seems like he made the correct decision, but idk. But even if he was good to Egg, by letting him travel the country with a stranger and a liar, he banished his other son who's misery sent him into the cups of wildfire.

But we can agree, that Hoster was a douchebag

Do you think it's possible that Catelyn dislikes Jon because Ned looked out for him like Walder and Hoster made his dislike of Walder's practices plain?

Hoster wasn't just a jerk but also an idiot.

[Hugorfonics]

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Do you think it's possible that Catelyn dislikes Jon because Ned looked out for him like Walder and Hoster made his dislike of Walder's practices plain?

Hoster wasn't just a jerk but also an idiot.

Hoster disapproved of that? 

Not really tbh (although I'm not positive what line your referring to), yea I mean I think it's complicated. So obviously there's lots of fuck this cuck and then flaunting his affair in her and the world's face, but that's the boss and her spouse so the anger get reflected. Then there's the complications with her suppressed feelings for Petyr or her less suppressed crush for Brandon mixed with jealousy for Ashara. But the main is I think, like home sick. Cat was sent up north with a stomach but that's about it, no ladies in waiting no brother or nuncle. The North's weird and cold and dreary but Robb was all she needed, although she got blessed four times afterwards, got a Sept built in her name, Ned's aloof but Winterfell feels like home. 

But it's Jon's home too. Take a look at the crypts, they all look like this guy. Those creepy trees, Jon feels at home. Even the word snow that sometimes falls in the summer is reminiscent of who's kingdom this truly is. So I think it's a lot, just a heap of mind fucks on poor Cat.

 

I actually think Hoster was rather brilliant, or perhaps lucky. It did involve selling his two daughters to the meat market however. Which like obviously grime, we get it you can't pimp out your baby brother, but your really gonna sell your damaged daughters? (Lysa obviously was just fucked since adolescence, but Cat, again Brandon just died! Like can the lady grieve without you morphing feelings for Stark?) But the outcome of Hosters whorehouse was basically the field of asoiaf. About half of the power of the realm is in Tully hands now and without claiming a crown for their own they have largely controlled the narrative of Westeros

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hoster disapproved of that? 

Not really tbh (although I'm not positive what line your referring to), yea I mean I think it's complicated. So obviously there's lots of fuck this cuck and then flaunting his affair in her and the world's face, but that's the boss and her spouse so the anger get reflected. Then there's the complications with her suppressed feelings for Petyr or her less suppressed crush for Brandon mixed with jealousy for Ashara. But the main is I think, like home sick. Cat was sent up north with a stomach but that's about it, no ladies in waiting no brother or nuncle. The North's weird and cold and dreary but Robb was all she needed, although she got blessed four times afterwards, got a Sept built in her name, Ned's aloof but Winterfell feels like home. 

But it's Jon's home too. Take a look at the crypts, they all look like this guy. Those creepy trees, Jon feels at home. Even the word snow that sometimes falls in the summer is reminiscent of who's kingdom this truly is. So I think it's a lot, just a heap of mind fucks on poor Cat.

 

I actually think Hoster was rather brilliant, or perhaps lucky. It did involve selling his two daughters to the meat market however. Which like obviously grime, we get it you can't pimp out your baby brother, but your really gonna sell your damaged daughters? (Lysa obviously was just fucked since adolescence, but Cat, again Brandon just died! Like can the lady grieve without you morphing feelings for Stark?) But the outcome of Hosters whorehouse was basically the field of asoiaf. About half of the power of the realm is in Tully hands now and without claiming a crown for their own they have largely controlled the narrative of Westeros

Something during Catelyn's first chapter in ASOS says that Hoster wasn't the type to sire illegitimate kids, so I would imagine that Hoster would disapprove of Walder's open acknowledgement of them. As far as selling both daughters, he chose to follow through Catelyn's betrothal with Brandon by swapping Ned in, but with Lysa, he could have chosen to marry her away from the land of the schmuck who sired a bastard on her, who Hoster knew was a bad influence.

[Hugorfonics]

49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Something during Catelyn's first chapter in ASOS says that Hoster wasn't the type to sire illegitimate kids, so I would imagine that Hoster would disapprove of Walder's open acknowledgement of them

Gotcha. Yea I see where your coming from, but in the same passage she's thinking Tansy could be Edmures kid so I read it as like not that Family Duty Honor means no bastards but more like in Little Cats mind daddy can't do wrong. Which definitely changes throughout the book when she learns what Tansy was and tells her father "I know what you did"

52 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as selling both daughters, he chose to follow through Catelyn's betrothal with Brandon by swapping Ned in, but with Lysa, he could have chosen to marry her away from the land of the schmuck who sired a bastard on her, who Hoster knew was a bad influence.

Cat was totally politics though. It's not like the vow to the brother is so strong, (as we see when the high septon told Joff that Starks crimes made him able to brake his promise) and the fact that Ned was married and bedded and off to war is a sharp contrast to Robb and his promise to Walder.

But same with the sister, Lysa was the price Jon needed right? So even if Lysa wasn't crestfallen already she was already destined to marry the senior. 

As far as Petyr being a bad influence, I'm not sure. I mean LF is of course, but twenty years ago?  Hoster practically raised this kid, it's for all extensive purposes his kid. But one that can potentially marry his step sister, like Theon used to think Sansa would make a good wife until he realized Stark would never officially indoctrinate him into the family. But Ned's cold and while Hoster is an ass maybe not as much? I think it's worth noting that knocking up his daughter did not get him exiled, and only after he stood in the way of Hosters political aspersions was he finally sent away from Riverrun

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But same with the sister, Lysa was the price Jon needed right? So even if Lysa wasn't crestfallen already she was already destined to marry the senior. 

As far as Petyr being a bad influence, I'm not sure. I mean LF is of course, but twenty years ago?  Hoster practically raised this kid, it's for all extensive purposes his kid. But one that can potentially marry his step sister, like Theon used to think Sansa would make a good wife until he realized Stark would never officially indoctrinate him into the family. But Ned's cold and while Hoster is an ass maybe not as much? I think it's worth noting that knocking up his daughter did not get him exiled, and only after he stood in the way of Hosters political aspersions was he finally sent away from Riverrun

That's the other thing; did they even need the Jon Arryn/Lysa match if Catelyn was already going to be bound to the Rebellion via marriage to Ned?

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

That's the other thing; did they even need the Jon Arryn/Lysa match if Catelyn was already going to be bound to the Rebellion via marriage to Ned?

Yes, in fact they needed both. That's why Ned and Cat got married in a hurry, to cement it. If Ned said no then Hoster would have called the whole thing off and Robert would have failed. Hoster definitely had Jon by the balls, but you know, with his daughters lives at stake.