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Tyrion's bastards


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2 hours ago, fischbroetchen said:

Tyrion's whoring is overstated in the series. When meeting Shae in AGOT Tyrion VIII he remarks that he hasn't been with a woman in nearly a year, so I don't think he fathered many children. However, he could have a daughter with Tysha, assuming she is the Sailor's Wife.

I hope she is not. Tysha was no whore, and it doesn't seem like she would become one either just because Tywin said she was. She had skills and a bit of money. Whoring was not her only option.

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57 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I hope she is not. Tysha was no whore, and it doesn't seem like she would become one either just because Tywin said she was. She had skills and a bit of money. Whoring was not her only option.

I always wondered why Jaime decided to go along with Tywin on that...

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10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I always wondered why Jaime decided to go along with Tywin on that...

Presumably Tywin gave him the bollocking to end all bollockings for allowing it to happen in the first place, and made some dire threats, perhaps including threats against Tyrion himself, if Jaime didn't go along with his plan to undo it. It's also possible that Jaime didn't know - or chose not to know - the full extent of Tywin's intentions and thought he would just be telling his brother a white lie to get him out of a difficult situation.

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope whores of that era wouldnt hold onto bastards

We know of several who did. While infanticide is probably distressingly common, it's still not something every mother - even the majority of mothers - could force themselves to do.

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20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Presumably Tywin gave him the bollocking to end all bollockings for allowing it to happen in the first place, and made some dire threats, perhaps including threats against Tyrion himself, if Jaime didn't go along with his plan to undo it. It's also possible that Jaime didn't know - or chose not to know - the full extent of Tywin's intentions and thought he would just be telling his brother a white lie to get him out of a difficult situation.

We know of several who did. While infanticide is probably distressingly common, it's still not something every mother - even the majority of mothers - could force themselves to do.

Well, I wouldn't put it past Jaime to choose not to know; he'd already lived through the Sack of King's Landing where the kids he was supposed to protect were killed on Tywin's orders and their mother raped. There's no way he couldn't know unless he blinded himself to it.

When it comes to Tyrion's bastards I'd say that most wouldn't want to keep his. There's always that outside chance of their child inheriting Tyrion's dwarfism and given how Tyrion is marginalized even at the upper echelons of society, they'd at least think twice. As for getting someone else to care for the kid or funds from the father? Forget about it for Tywin will make a Mountain of trouble for you.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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45 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

When it comes to Tyrion's bastards I'd say that most wouldn't want to keep his. There's always that outside chance of their child inheriting Tyrion's dwarfism and given how Tyrion is marginalized even at the upper echelons of society, they'd at least think twice. As for getting someone else to care for the kid or funds from the father? Forget about it for Tywin will make a Mountain of trouble for you.

I would agree with this point. Most of the prostitutes' Tyrion would visit probably have someone making Moon Tea for them, its not worth them not being able to work for several months for the chance that the babe might be like him. A King or a respected Lord sure that might be worth it for the chance they acknowledge the kid and offer some patronage but not Tyrion. 

Most other bastards come from servants or the like and even if they were attracted to Tyrion they probably heard rumors about him being an outcast in his own family and knew that carrying his child was a ticket to Tywin's bad side.  

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On 5/30/2023 at 12:40 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I always wondered why Jaime decided to go along with Tywin on that...

well Jaime has been his father's and sister's fool for most of the book.

i suppose he thought Tywin was correct. Most lords of that era would have found a way of nullifying such a marriage. 13 year old son caught by a pretty face. Marrying without permission. A crofter! They just wouldn't go all out sadistic like Tywin did, as he did to anyone he saw as sullying his name.

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[Tywin] "[...] You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"

[Tyrion] "I believe I am," he said, bristling."I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can...."

So maybe no bastards for Tyrion.

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I do think that Thysa is the sailor's wife but Lana (the daugther) is no bastard.

On 5/29/2023 at 3:42 PM, Hippocras said:

I hope she is not. Tysha was no whore, and it doesn't seem like she would become one either just because Tywin said she was. She had skills and a bit of money. Whoring was not her only option.

After the rape she might bacame one. It would make her history even sadder.

Edited by Aerodimas
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14 hours ago, Aerodimas said:

I do thinck that Thysa is the sailor's wife but Lana (the daugther) is no bastard.

After the rape she might bacame one. It would make her history even sadder.

There are several elements that don't quite seem to fit. They do not exclude the possibility, but they do put the conclusion Tysha is the sailor's wife into question, leaving the matter open.

1. Lanna seems to be slightly too old by the math. Possible, but just squeaks into the time window.

2. Fortune telling by blood tasting is a thing, it would not be unheard of for a whore in this world to actually have a touch of this ability since some people clearly do. A fortune teller insists that Lanna's father is dead.

3. The sailor's wife is clearly hoping that her lover will sail "back" to her, as in, he knows where she is and she does not need to go find him. Clearly Tysha would know that Tyrion is not a sailor and has no idea she is in Braavos.

I certainly consider it a possibility the sailor's wife is Tysha, but I prefer to think Lanna is Gerion's daughter. It fits better with the sailor's wife's own version of her story.

Besides, I have an alternate theory I like better. ;)

Edited by Hippocras
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14 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

There are several elements that don't quite seem to fit. They do not exclude the possibility, but they do put the conclusion Tysha is the sailor's wife into question, leaving the matter open.

1. Lanna seems to be slightly too old by the math. Possible, but just squeaks into the time window.

2. Fortune telling by blood tasting is a thing, it would not be unheard of for a whore in this world to actually have a touch of this ability since some people clearly do. A fortune teller insists that Lanna's father is dead.

3. The sailor's wife is clearly hoping that her lover will sail "back" to her, as in, he knows where she is and she does not need to go find him. Clearly Tysha would know that Tyrion is not a sailor and has no idea she is in Braavos.

I certainly consider it a possibility the sailor's wife is Tysha, but I prefer to think Lanna is Gerion's daughter. It fits better with the sailor's wife's own version of her story.

Besides, I have an alternate theory I like better. ;)

If i remember correctly Lanna is 14 and Tyrion 27, he had her wen he was 13.

Your other points are interesting tou, but given Tyrions relationships with hores i find it very interesting for him to have a hore for a daugther.

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On 5/29/2023 at 4:42 PM, Hippocras said:

I hope she is not. Tysha was no whore, and it doesn't seem like she would become one either just because Tywin said she was. She had skills and a bit of money. Whoring was not her only option.

The issue is that sex work would have been one of the few options Tysha would have to make a living, regardless of what else happened. She was a crofter, basically a farmer, with no land and relatives. Learning another trade would require both money and connections. The money she had was not that much and she wouldn't have been able to hold on to it for long.

 

20 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

There are several elements that don't quite seem to fit. They do not exclude the possibility, but they do put the conclusion Tysha is the sailor's wife into question, leaving the matter open.

1. Lanna seems to be slightly too old by the math. Possible, but just squeaks into the time window.

2. Fortune telling by blood tasting is a thing, it would not be unheard of for a whore in this world to actually have a touch of this ability since some people clearly do. A fortune teller insists that Lanna's father is dead.

3. The sailor's wife is clearly hoping that her lover will sail "back" to her, as in, he knows where she is and she does not need to go find him. Clearly Tysha would know that Tyrion is not a sailor and has no idea she is in Braavos.

I certainly consider it a possibility the sailor's wife is Tysha, but I prefer to think Lanna is Gerion's daughter. It fits better with the sailor's wife's own version of her story.

Besides, I have an alternate theory I like better. ;)

Regarding the story, she certainly wouldn't tell people that she was married to a Lannister lordling. For one people wouldn't believe her and I am sure she has enough trauma tto keep telling people. There is also the fear of Tywin. The sailor story is pretty much the most generic story one could come up with in a port. 

As for Yna's prophecy it's not necessarily literal. The wording was that her love is dead. I don't think she would very much like Tyrion as he is now. 

The things that point to Tyrion is Lanna, of course but also the wedding gimmick.

If it's true, it could mean that little Lanna could wind up the Lady of Casterly Rock. 

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2 hours ago, Aerodimas said:

If i remember correctly Lanna is 14 and Tyrion 27, he had her wen he was 13.

Your other points are interesting tou, but given Tyrions relationships with hores i find it very interesting for him to have a hore for a daugther.

Tyrion was born in 273. Married in 286. Unless both his birthday and his marriage were very near the beginning of the year, any child he had with Tysha, at the point in the story when Arya was Cat, would most likely be 13, not 14, though 14 is certainly possible. You know who else was born in 286 or 287 and has a very murky heresay backstory from people likely to lie to him? Podrick Payne.

 

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The issue is that sex work would have been one of the few options Tysha would have to make a living, regardless of what else happened. She was a crofter, basically a farmer, with no land and relatives.

And just because she was raped she did not lose her crofting skills.

 

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Regarding the story, she certainly wouldn't tell people that she was married to a Lannister lordling. For one people wouldn't believe her and I am sure she has enough trauma tto keep telling people. There is also the fear of Tywin. The sailor story is pretty much the most generic story one could come up with in a port. 

Exact same applies to a lover of Gerion Lannister, except that he WAS in fact sailing away (to Valyria no less) and so the story fits better.

 

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As for Yna's prophecy it's not necessarily literal. The wording was that her love is dead. I don't think she would very much like Tyrion as he is now. 

True. But he lover could actually be dead. Like Gerion.
 

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

If it's true, it could mean that little Lanna could wind up the Lady of Casterly Rock. 

Or it could be Pod, and Pod become Lord of Casterly Rock. I very much doubt that it would end up going to Lanna, even if she did turn out to be Tyrion's daughter. There are simply no shortage of male Lannisters around who would believe, rightly or wrongly, that their claims take precedence. Pod, on the other hand, would not be contested.

Gerion is nothing more than a side note in the story so far, but things are heating up with Euron now that he is back. The burning of the Lannister fleet by Euron and Victarion means there is a certain amount of history between these two character that might make Gerion and his quest to find Brightroar more relevant. it is possible, for example, that Euron's Valyrian steel armour might have been made from Brightroar, and he may even have had a hand in Gerion's death. Lanna being Gerion's daughter would of course still give her a modest claim to Casterly Rock if needed so it would not change anything in that regard.

Everyone agrees that Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's marriage was extreme and abhorrent. We believe we have sufficient reasons for why he did what he did. But what if his reaction was ALSO about Gerion, who had recently announced that he got some common girl pregnant in Braavos and married her? And what if, knowing what he then knew about what Tywin did to Tysha, Gerion never returned as intended because he knew what his brother would do? It did not stop him from fathering at least 1 more bastard, Joy Hill, but if he was already married he obviously would not marry Briony or anyone else exacerbating the conflict with Tywin.

Edited by Hippocras
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19 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Tyrion was born in 273. Married in 286. Unless both his birthday and his marriage were very near the beginning of the year, any child he had with Tysha, at the point in the story when Arya was Cat, would most likely be 13, not 14, though 14 is certainly possible. You know who else was born in 286 or 287 and has a very murky heresay backstory from people likely to lie to him? Podrick Payne.

 

And just because she was raped she did not lose her crofting skills.

 

Exact same applies to a lover of Gerion Lannister, except that he WAS in fact sailing away (to Valyria no less) and so the story fits better.

 

True. But he lover could actually be dead. Like Gerion.
 

Or it could be Pod, and Pod become Lord of Casterly Rock. I very much doubt that it would end up going to Lanna, even if she did turn out to be Tyrion's daughter. There are simply no shortage of male Lannisters around who would believe, rightly or wrongly, that their claims take precedence. Pod, on the other hand, would not be contested.

Gerion is nothing more than a side note in the story so far, but things are heating up with Euron now that he is back. The burning of the Lannister fleet by Euron and Victarion means there is a certain amount of history between these two character that might make Gerion and his quest to find Brightroar more relevant. it is possible, for example, that Euron's Valyrian steel armour might have been made from Brightroar, and he may even have had a hand in Gerion's death. Lanna being Gerion's daughter would of course still give her a modest claim to Casterly Rock if needed so it would not change anything in that regard.

Everyone agrees that Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's marriage was extreme and abhorrent. We believe we have sufficient reasons for why he did what he did. But what if his reaction was ALSO about Gerion, who had recently announced that he got some common girl pregnant in Braavos and married her? And what if, knowing what he then knew about what Tywin did to Tysha, Gerion never returned as intended because he knew what his brother would do? It did not stop him from fathering at least 1 more bastard, Joy Hill, but if he was already married he obviously would not marry Briony or anyone else exacerbating the conflict with Tywin.

A few points:

A farmer without land to work on doesn't have an income. 

The wiki gives the dates for Gerion's first tour of the Free Cities at about 271 AC and his later expedition at about 291 AC. The later date comes from a quote in the book. 

Lanna being Tyrion's legitimate daughter doesn't give her some claim. She's next in the line of succession as Tyrion's heir. Granted I was mentioning it as a funny prospect, rather then a realistic one. But should Tyrion take Casterly Rock, who knows. 

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28 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

A few points:

A farmer without land to work on doesn't have an income. 

The wiki gives the dates for Gerion's first tour of the Free Cities at about 271 AC and his later expedition at about 291 AC. The later date comes from a quote in the book. 

Lanna being Tyrion's legitimate daughter doesn't give her some claim. She's next in the line of succession as Tyrion's heir. Granted I was mentioning it as a funny prospect, rather then a realistic one. But should Tyrion take Casterly Rock, who knows. 

Gerion travelled a lot. Yes, he did a tour when he was 16. Disappeared for Valyria in 291, 2 years after the Greyjoy rebellion and 3 years after fathering Joy Hill. Lanna would have been 5, but he was not in her life. It is strongly implied that Gerion looked for basically any excuse to get away from Casterly Rock and Tywin, and hints such as his gifts to Tyrion make it clear that the two trips overseas you mentioned were not his only trips.

What is also clear is that Euron's exhile from the Iron Islands began around the same time: a long time ago but clearly AFTER the Greyjoy rebellion of 289. So if they both took off overseas at around the same time, with Euron having a bit of a thing for conquering Lannisters and the added bauble of a Valyrian Steel relic to claim as trophy, I think Euron would have followed Gerion and had a bit of cat and mouse fun with him.

Edited by Hippocras
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1 hour ago, Aerodimas said:

Tinfoil theory: Euron captured and sacrified Gerion for som kind of spell. Thats how he was able to travel to Valyria.

Reforging Valyrian steel requires a sacrifice. If his armour was made from Brightroar, Gerion's sacrifice would have allowed it to be reforged. It is not actually confirmed that Euron really went to Valyria. He is a big time liar after all, and pretending he did would serve his purpose. But let's say he did. He went there, and that is where he encountered Gerion who, for whatever reason, had been unable to leave but had found Brightroar. Maybe. He would have needed a Qohorik blacksmith though.

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

According to the wiki Euron was exiled in 297 AC. 

Not sure where they got that detail, but even so, it does not negate the possibility that they crossed paths, Aerea Targaryen was missing for two years when she took off to Valyria, we don't know how long Gerion took to get there, and it is even possible that Euron crossed paths with Gerion on an earlier trip before he was exhiled. So the relationship of Gerion's departure to Euron's exhile is not all that key.

I also sometimes wonder who Victarion's salt wife was, the one Euron seduced or raped. The Ironborn tradition is that salt wives are "won", so it is likely that Victarion "took" her as part of his actions during the Greyjoy rebellion. The Ironborn were not doing much fighting after that. Meanwhile we know that Gerion's mistress Briony, mother of Joy Hill, is dead or gone, and that Gerion sailed a great deal, making it at least possible that Briony was someone he met on a ship or at the port with the Lannister fleet. If so, she would have been in the path of the Ironborn when they rebelled, making it possible this salt wife was Briony. That would be an interesting twist.

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