Harrenhal - What's it all about?

[Hippocras]

I would appreciate people's thoughts on Harrenhal. Why everything turns to shit there (tourney the smiles died, plot against King Robb hatched there, major dragon battles, etc.). There is of course the supposed curse, but beyond that Harrenhal has deeper corrupting significance throughout its history and I could do with an exhaustive list of examples of this as well as people's theories on what role it will play in what remains of the series.

[Evolett]

Aside from six of the Houses Harrenhal was awarded to going extinct and two being dispossessed, it's interesting that two important "Bael characters" are associated with the place: Rhaegar who met Lyanna there during the Tourney of Harrenhal, alledgedly capturing her and hiding her in the Tower of Joy, and Petyr Baelish who "steals" another Stark daughter, Sansa and hides her in a towering castle in the Vale. 

Probably also important is the fact that for the first time since Aegon's Conquest, the Lord of Harrenhal is also the Lord Paramount of the Trident. The latter position has hitherto been held by House Tully who ruled from their seat at Riverrun. I wonder if this is significant. 

During a discussion on the symbolism of hands a while ago, @Seams noted that Baelish is now twice associated with symbolic stoney hands: once with the Fingers, from which he hails and from which he acquired his alias, Littlefinger, and now again with Harrenhal whose towers are described as such by Arya:

Quote

Arya thought they looked like some old man’s gnarled, knuckly fingers groping after a passing cloud. 

 

So LF is master of two castles associated with stoney fingers, though one "hand" is burned and the other is not. 
On the subject of stones - if GRRM based the name Petyr on Peter, then that's another stone reference. Not forgetting Sansa is now Alayne Stone and her mother and one time love of Petyr's life is now Stoneheart. Hmm. 

I don't claim to have a ready explanation for any of this but it's interesting

[Hippocras]

Interesting.

I have often found myself wondering about Rhaena Targaryen, why she chose to go there and what she did during her years there during Jaehaerys's reign.

[SilverGhost]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Interesting.

I have often found myself wondering about Rhaena Targaryen, why she chose to go there and what she did during her years there during Jaehaerys's reign.

Her and Maegor Towers just living among their various ghosts as well as those of Black Harren and his sons. It would be a great novella or even a spinoff series.

What happened with Alys Rivers there between the death of House Strong and the awarding of Harrenhall to the Lothstons is another interesting mystery. 

[chrisdaw]

Harrenhal is a parallel of Euron when he becomes the Stone Beast, its creation, nature and demise.

[Seams]

I assume Harrenhal is an allegorical location where the larger Game of Thrones is playing out on a (slightly) smaller scale. It appears that the location seems to have something to do with the Storm King, who is thought to be Melisandre's The Great Other, who stands in contrast to her fire god, R'hllor. 

We know that the castle was built by the Ironborn, which is intriguingly ironic, since the Ironborn castle at Pyke is crumbling into the ocean.

The location on the God's Eye is also important. 

Here is the first reference to Harrenhal in the World book:

Quote

North of the Blackwater, the riverlands were ruled by the bloody hand of Harren the Black of House Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers. Harren's ironborn grandsire, Harwyn Hardhand, had taken the Trident from Argilac's grandsire, Arrec, whose own forebears had thrown down the last of the river kings centuries earlier. Harren's father had extended his domains east to Duskendale and Rosby. Harren himself had devoted most of his long reign, close on forty years, to building a gigantic castle beside the Gods Eye, but with Harrenhal at last nearing completion, the ironborn were soon free to seek fresh conquests.

Hardhand? @Evolett is spot on to put the hand symbolism at the center of sorting out the Harrenhal symbolism. We know that, at some point post-conquest, there is always an important figure called The King's Hand who runs the seven kingdoms. We see a lot of hands chopped off, burned or maimed in ASOIAF. Harrenhal is compared to a giant hand in the passage cited by Evolett. (Interesting that it is grasping at clouds in Arya's imagination, and Sansa imagines two cloud castles merging in her musing about the sky over the Eyrie.) 

So what if the point is to take possession of the hand? Or to become the Hand, as Eddard Stark does at the beginning of AGoT? Taking possession of Harrenhal is a way to take charge of the Seven Kingdoms. 

Quote

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

ADwD, Melisandre I

Taking possession of someone else's finger bones allows you to seem to become that person. Taking possession of Harrenhal allows you to seem to become the king of Westeros, winner of the Game of Thrones. This is why there is a strong association with Bael characters there.

But readers know that, through her mother's connection to House Whent, Catelyn Stark's children (or the children of Lysa or Edmure) are the heirs of Harrenhal. This could explain Petyr's obsession with House Tully. 

And then there's this, from Arya:

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The lord and maester swept from the room, giving her not so much as a backward glance. When they were gone, Arya took the letter and carried it to the hearth, stirring the logs with a poker to wake the flames anew. She watched the parchment twist, blacken, and flare up. If the Lannisters hurt Bran and Rickon, Robb will kill them every one. He'll never bend the knee, never, never, never. He's not afraid of any of them. Curls of ash floated up the chimney. Arya squatted beside the fire, watching them rise through a veil of hot tears. If Winterfell is truly gone, is this my home now? Am I still Arya, or only Nan the serving girl, for forever and forever and forever?

Clash, Arya X

Arya is taking possession of a new "home." She does so through a "veil," which is probably a connection to The Vale. (The hot tears are probably part of the Alyssa Arryn symbolism, which is strongly associated with Catelyn.) But she might also be Aegon's dragon, Balerion (another Bael character), stirring up a fire at Harrenhal in the blackened tower. Balerion is associated with Arya and Sansa because the old black tom cat at the Red Keep is presumed to be the kitten Balerion that was the pet of Princess Rhaenys before the princess was killed by Amory Lorch. That cat rubbed up against Sansa and was caught by Arya in her water dancer training. The burning letter may represent words, which is wordplay for swords. We know that Aegon's dragon also melted (burned) swords to create the Iron Throne. 

Arya is becoming the heir (Ghost?) of Harrenhal but also a dragon and Old Nan. Quite a resume.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Harrenhal is a parallel of Euron when he becomes the Stone Beast, its creation, nature and demise.

It’d be awesome if that’s where Daenerys defeats Euron.

[John Suburbs]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:13 AM, Hippocras said:

I would appreciate people's thoughts on Harrenhal. Why everything turns to shit there (tourney the smiles died, plot against King Robb hatched there, major dragon battles, etc.). There is of course the supposed curse, but beyond that Harrenhal has deeper corrupting significance throughout its history and I could do with an exhaustive list of examples of this as well as people's theories on what role it will play in what remains of the series.

It's a huge castle that is virtually impossible to defend without a huge army, and none of the lords who claimed it as their seat had the resources to do that. Still, some houses maintained reasonable control for relatively long periods of time -- House Lothston for some 80 years; House Whent for nearly 70 years. 

And while curses are in the eyes of the beholders, the green men on the Isle of Faces are probably not without influence here.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's a huge castle that is virtually impossible to defend without a huge army, and none of the lords who claimed it as their seat had the resources to do that. Still, some houses maintained reasonable control for relatively long periods of time -- House Lothston for some 80 years; House Whent for nearly 70 years. 

And while curses are in the eyes of the beholders, the green men on the Isle of Faces are probably not without influence here.

I mean, yes, that part is pretty basic. What I am looking for is deeper analysis. A lot of transformative things have happened there which gives the place a high significance, but that is hard to pin down. It is mysterious, lurking in the background, but pivotal.

[The Sleeper]

The God's Eye has a strict non-trespasser policy and is annoyed that Harren built right on the shore, so they are messing with people's minds, exacerbating their worst tendencies, driving violence in order to keep people away. 

[Evolett]

23 hours ago, Seams said:

Taking possession of someone else's finger bones allows you to seem to become that person. Taking possession of Harrenhal allows you to seem to become the king of Westeros, winner of the Game of Thrones. This is why there is a strong association with Bael characters there.

Could you elaborate on the above? I can't quite follow your train of thought here regarding the connection between Bael characters and becoming the winner of the Game of Thrones / king of Westeros. 

I had another thought on the Bael characters. The original Bael, Bael the Bard, said his name was Sygerrick, meaning "deceiver." "Deceiver" can also refer to a trickster or even to a betrayer figure. Rhaegar possibly falls into this category if we view his apparent intention to "retire" his father Aerys as a kind of deception or betrayal.

What is more evident is the occupation of Harrenhal by a set of "deceiver, trickster, betrayer" figures since the outbreak of  the War of Five Kings. There's Tywin (stemming from the trickster Lann the Clever); Roose Bolton who deceived and betrayed his King, Vargo Hoat - famous for switching allegiances, Janos Slynt and the Gold Cloaks whom Ned  thought he had on his side and of course master deceiver Petyr Baelish. Why do we have such a concentration of "deceivers" at this point in time? Does it relate to winning the Iron Throne as you say? Rhaegar failed, Tywin "won," Baelish certainly has designs on the Throne. Perhaps the point is, it takes a master trickster to achieve this feat, but we don't really expect LF to win so what is the purpose of  this focus on tricksters? I'm not sure. 

 

23 hours ago, Seams said:

But readers know that, through her mother's connection to House Whent, Catelyn Stark's children (or the children of Lysa or Edmure) are the heirs of Harrenhal. This could explain Petyr's obsession with House Tully. 

This prompted me to think about the well known bats of Harrenhal. Apart from the grisly stories surrounding Danelle Lothston which include her sending off bats to prey on children, House Lothston's sigil bore a prominent bat as a symbol. House Whent's sigil depicts nine bats as well. Sansa has at least one bat reference:

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Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she’d swallowed a bat. 

 This "batty" feeling comes up during Joff's wedding to Margary and seems to be a sign of fear as opposed to her previous fluttery feelings of love toward him. So it's interesting that Jamie gives Brienne an Lothston shield along with Oathkeeper for her quest to find Sansa Stark. Granted, Brienne has the shield painted over but perhaps this also tells us something about a possible Sansa claim to Harrenhal through her Whent ancestors. Sansa, Lady of Harrenhal? With Arya being a ghost in Harrenhal and having no fear of the presumed ghosts of Harren and his sons, the many comparisons between Harrenhal and Winterfell, and the "burned hand" that applies to both Harrenhal and Jon, I wonder if a Stark occupation of Harrenhal is the key to perhaps breaking the presumed curse?
 

[Hippocras]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The God's Eye has a strict non-trespasser policy and is annoyed that Harren built right on the shore, so they are messing with people's minds, exacerbating their worst tendencies, driving violence in order to keep people away. 

I tend to wonder if the Green Men order are actually hiding in plain sight. The beliefs about antlers, green skin, elk riding, etc. are just red herrings that help the real members of the order from moving around as normal people, unnoticed. If so, many of the strange characters associated with Harrenhal may have been part of the order. Red Harren, Alys Rivers, etc. Or not. I don't know. Still, if so it has interesting implications, and we would need to consider who might be part of the order in current events, and what the objectives of the green men currently are.

 

Going to add a link to this thread as it might have interesting and relevant points:

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Hippocras

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

Could you elaborate on the above? I can't quite follow your train of thought here regarding the connection between Bael characters and becoming the winner of the Game of Thrones / king of Westeros.

You are right to call me out on this. I can't point to anything specific but I've developed this hunch that Baelor the Blessed and the other Bael characters are somehow good and right kings for Westeros and other kingdoms. Maybe that's just something I made up in my head to try to redefine GRRM's deliberate grey areas in terms of black and white. 

The Targaryen succession became pretty complicated and the blood lines were watered down. One claimant seemed to have no better rationale than another. Somehow I came to the conclusion that the Bael characters are true north on the compass (speaking figuratively, not referring to the North lands in Westeros) and the succession become murky again each time a Bael character is knocked out of the throne or line of succession. 

It could be that Bael figures are often near-misses as kings, or they have to team up with someone who embodies other qualities. Baelor the Blessed needed his cousin, the Dragonknight, to perform certain functions and he realized that an alliance with Dorne was important to solve other problems. So maybe I shouldn't think of Bael figures as freestanding kings, but as people who assemble teams (or choose successors?) that rule effectively.

Bael the Bard at Winterfell impregnated the Stark lord's daughter, but did not become Lord in his own right. I think that's more the approach being taken by Petyr Baelish. 

I am fully open to other ideas about kings and Harrenhal.

Jaime was inducted into the Kingsguard there and then sent away by Aerys. I am a follower of @sweetsunray's long-ago explanation of tourneys as foreshadowing for power struggles and lines of succession. (I can't remember if it was I who pointed out the wordplay on "tourney" - sounds like "turn knee" - and "bend the knee," with the latter phrase indicating that someone has surrendered to another's claim of victory.) Jaime being barred from the tourney may confirm that he was knocked out of the line of succession for the Iron Throne. (Unless he was a mystery knight.)

Rhaegar, who sang and played the harp, was a Bael-like figure at Harrenhal. Or he tried to be. But he was defeated by the mystery knight. So we will have to speculate who defended the little Crannogman in Meera's story. If we can pin down the identity of the mystery knight, we may be able to figure out the eventual king of Westeros. 

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she’d swallowed a bat. 

I've interpreted Sansa's several experiences of fluttery tummy as symbolic pregnancies. Here she has been impregnated by Joffrey and her baby will be a bat. GRRM often refers to children and babies as monsters, so Sansa's symbolic bat baby is not so strange in this context. If the lamb woman is to be believed, Dany's stillborn or short-lived baby, Rhaego, had wings.

So Joffrey impregnates Sansa with a bat and Jaime gives a bat shield to Brienne. Why? (Hmm. I wonder whether the shield somehow symbolizes birth control?) I have speculated that shields are portable doors, so maybe Jaime is giving a door to Brienne that allows her to access something others cannot reach. This may fit the code we need to crack for Harrenhal. People are trying to access something there or to prevent others from accessing it. Aegon the Conqueror melts the towers of Harrenhal and destroys its centrality as a place where kings are chosen. 

Danelle Lothston is one of the Great Bastards, right? And she is associated with Harrenhal and bats. In the Dunk & Egg era, GRRM tells us that she specifically stays out of the Blackfyre Rebellion clashes, except for the second. For reasons we are not told, she does not want to see Daemon II / John the Fiddler ascend to the throne so she supports Bloodraven's side in the Whitewalls situation.

So maybe Sansa and Brienne are playing kingmaker - or king-preventer? - roles with their bat associations. 

If this is true, I think the future of Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, may involve flying through the Moon Door. A bat is a mouse that flies, right? Sansa's bat baby may be "born" when she causes a mouse to fly. 

Whatever the correct interpretation of bats might be, I think the bat wings are important. Giving someone wings or helping them to fly is a big deal in ASOIAF. 

Brienne meets Shadrich soon after sharing a meal with  Illifer the Penniless and Creighton Longbough. I think Illifer is going to be a key to figuring out the bat symbolism because he has such a strong reaction to her shield and says his great-great-grandfther killed the last person (a Lothston) who was entitled to carry that shield. In playing with anagrams as potential clues to minor characters, a lot of possible solutions for Ser Illifer the Penniless involve the word "serpent," which is a synonym for dragon. So he may be a symbolic Aegon the Conqueror or generic Targaryen. He doesn't want the Lothston bat to rise again. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Seams

[Hippocras]

@Seams I don't think GRRM works on such a highly symbolic level. Already it fails as a concept to me because Baelor the Blessed was a notably bad King. Being highly religious does not mean being good. Baelon Greyjoy is nothing close to good. etc.

[The Sleeper]

12 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I tend to wonder if the Green Men order are actually hiding in plain sight. The beliefs about antlers, green skin, elk riding, etc. are just red herrings that help the real members of the order from moving around as normal people, unnoticed. If so, many of the strange characters associated with Harrenhal may have been part of the order. Red Harren, Alys Rivers, etc. Or not. I don't know. Still, if so it has interesting implications, and we would need to consider who might be part of the order in current events, and what the objectives of the green men currently are.

 

Going to add a link to this thread as it might have interesting and relevant points:

 

My theory is that they were sacrificed and uploaded to the trees. Hence the "green" men. 

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

My theory is that they were sacrificed and uploaded to the trees. Hence the "green" men. 

If so, how have they been involved in the story so far without explicit mention, and how will they appear in future? What is their specific relationship to the history of Harrenhal, right next door?

[The Sleeper]

10 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

If so, how have they been involved in the story so far without explicit mention, and how will they appear in future? What is their specific relationship to the history of Harrenhal, right next door?

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/162776-harrenhal-whats-it-all-about/&do=findComment&comment=8945716

[Hippocras]

41 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/162776-harrenhal-whats-it-all-about/&do=findComment&comment=8945716

That's pretty vague.

[The Sleeper]

35 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

That's pretty vague.

There's basically nothing else. It's a fairly sized island smack in the middle of a huge Lake in the middle of the continent and it barely gets mentioned in the main series, despite its apparent historical significance, with only a few short references in the world book about attempts at approach being thwarted with sudden squalls and flocks of ravens. I would quote it, but that's pretty much all there is. It's not that people don't go there, they apparently they don't even think about going there.

The way I see it, either Martin forgot about the God's Eye, or whatever's there doesn't want people around and has the ability to make it so. Provided the above this involves some sort of mind-control.

[Hippocras]

18 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

There's basically nothing else. It's a fairly sized island smack in the middle of a huge Lake in the middle of the continent and it barely gets mentioned in the main series, despite its apparent historical significance, with only a few short references in the world book about attempts at approach being thwarted with sudden squalls and flocks of ravens. I would quote it, but that's pretty much all there is. It's not that people don't go there, they apparently they don't even think about going there.

The way I see it, either Martin forgot about the God's Eye, or whatever's there doesn't want people around and has the ability to make it so. Provided the above this involves some sort of mind-control.

Ok, well I am skeptical.

I very much doubt the Isle of Faces would have been woven into the very core of Robert's Rebellion via Meera's story about Jojen if it did not have some clear significance to what has and will happen. It is very hard to see how a bunch of "uploaded" trees could do that, but we DO have many instances of corrupting forces at work at Harrenhal, and to me it seems probable that they are linked. So the question is, how. How are they ACTING in the story, now, and what will they do?