The Song of Ice and Fire: Daenerys & The Others

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Do you think that “revenge, hatred, cold inhumanity”, and “warmth, passion, sexual ardour” (the author’s own words) are equally bad things?

I do not.

No. But I think forcing change leads to further conflict. You can’t force people to change at gun point unless you wreak such violence that it forces change in response to it.

Take Slavers Bay, she has dragons and has threatened to use them. Yet the old masters are still resisting. Freemen are selling themselves back into slavery because of how hungry they are. If Daenerys uses her dragons, and utterly annihilates the slavers. Does such damages as to utterly cripple the slave trade, the culture will change to adapt. It’ll cripple the economy of the region, and lead to the problems she is facing now, but overtime people will adapt and something new will take its place.

If Dany goes to Westeros, and attempts this change, I could see it being resisted. Like how unhappy lords were with Egg’s policies. Tywin eventually rescinded much of what Egg did. She may come to the conclusion to use her dragons to try to force her change in Westeros. We, as readers, know her intentions are good, but how it comes across Westeros could be very different.

[SeanF]

24 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

No. But I think forcing change leads to further conflict. You can’t force people to change at gun point unless you wreak such violence that it forces change in response to it.

Take Slavers Bay, she has dragons and has threatened to use them. Yet the old masters are still resisting. Freemen are selling themselves back into slavery because of how hungry they are. If Daenerys uses her dragons, and utterly annihilates the slavers. Does such damages as to utterly cripple the slave trade, the culture will change to adapt. It’ll cripple the economy of the region, and lead to the problems she is facing now, but overtime people will adapt and something new will take its place.

If Dany goes to Westeros, and attempts this change, I could see it being resisted. Like how unhappy lords were with Egg’s policies. Tywin eventually rescinded much of what Egg did. She may come to the conclusion to use her dragons to try to force her change in Westeros. We, as readers, know her intentions are good, but how it comes across Westeros could be very different.

Sometimes, a rotten system has to be destroyed.

The slavers have no interest in peaceful reform.  They will fight to the death to defend their right to own others as chattels.

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sometimes, a rotten system has to be destroyed.

The slavers have no interest in peaceful reform.  They will fight to the death to defend their right to own others as chattels.

 

Slavers deserve to die, yes.

But can you say the same for Westeros? Sure we got nobles like the Lannisters or the Greyjoys. But do the Starks deserve that fate? Where does it end?

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Slavers deserve to die, yes.

But can you say the same for Westeros? Sure we got nobles like the Lannisters or the Greyjoys. But do the Starks deserve that fate? Where does it end?

Potentially there’s more scope for reform, in Westeros, but I don’t expect Daenerys to survive the fight against the Others, so the point will be moot.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/1/2023 at 2:47 PM, SeanF said:

Martin said of Fire and Ice, that Ice represents hatred, revenge, and cold inhumanity. Fire is warmth, passion, and sexual ardour.

Fire is good, but has the potential to be bad.  Ice is always bad.

But ice also represents logic and duty and caution.

Jon Snow, Stannis, Selyse, Randyll Tarly, Barbrey Dustin, Doran Martell, Ned and even Sansa are some examples of "icy" characters in the story.

So, ice can be good and/or useful too.

[Curled Finger]

Once upon a time there was a fandom untainted by fan fiction come to life in television form.  All they had were questions and their imaginations.  Things were better then because this is a complicated tale about many things though it is entitled A Song of Ice and Fire.

Now before this thing happened we used to discuss possibilities for The Others, the dragons and pretty much everyone and thing.   Plenty of people had the idea Dany might end up on the mad side of the coin and even more people had the idea Jon would have to put a sword in her to fulfill some stupid prophecy.  It's in the books and not hard to see.  What I don't see is a Great Other or R'hllor or dragons actually traveling north of the Wall.  Simply not there anywhere.  

These dragons will have to wait for Others and their wights to head south then simply obliterate them.  The wildcard here being we don't know what other cool tricks could be up the actual Others' sleeves.  Thus far we've read about no leader of the Others.  We don't know how many there are or anything at all about their organization.  Maybe necromancy and weather manipulation is the extent of their power.  Seems to me 3 dragons and 3 pissed off dragon riders would be able to handle that.  If all it takes is magic swords to smite Others isn't it fairly safe to assume there are only as many Others as there are magic swords?  So get 12 magic swords in the hands of 12 heroes and go kill 12 Others, right? Maybe an ancient sword like Dawn does something else.  I don't know.  I just don't think the dragons or Dany kill the Others.  She doesn't have weapons training.  Give her a break.  Killing off an army of wights is more than enough for her to do.  

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Plenty of people had the idea Dany might end up on the mad side of the coin and even more people had the idea Jon would have to put a sword in her to fulfill some stupid prophecy.  It's in the books and not hard to see. 

Um. Is this Dany as Nissa Nissa??

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Um. Is this Dany as Nissa Nissa??

yes

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Once upon a time there was a fandom untainted by fan fiction come to life in television form.  All they had were questions and their imaginations.  Things were better then because this is a complicated tale about many things though it is entitled A Song of Ice and Fire.

Now before this thing happened we used to discuss possibilities for The Others, the dragons and pretty much everyone and thing.   Plenty of people had the idea Dany might end up on the mad side of the coin and even more people had the idea Jon would have to put a sword in her to fulfill some stupid prophecy.  It's in the books and not hard to see.  What I don't see is a Great Other or R'hllor or dragons actually traveling north of the Wall.  Simply not there anywhere.  

These dragons will have to wait for Others and their wights to head south then simply obliterate them.  The wildcard here being we don't know what other cool tricks could be up the actual Others' sleeves.  Thus far we've read about no leader of the Others.  We don't know how many there are or anything at all about their organization.  Maybe necromancy and weather manipulation is the extent of their power.  Seems to me 3 dragons and 3 pissed off dragon riders would be able to handle that.  If all it takes is magic swords to smite Others isn't it fairly safe to assume there are only as many Others as there are magic swords?  So get 12 magic swords in the hands of 12 heroes and go kill 12 Others, right? Maybe an ancient sword like Dawn does something else.  I don't know.  I just don't think the dragons or Dany kill the Others.  She doesn't have weapons training.  Give her a break.  Killing off an army of wights is more than enough for her to do.  

I’m not saying Dany will be “mad”. I’m saying she’ll attempt to liberate Westeros as she did Slaver’s Bay. But their situations aren’t the same. 

[Springwatch]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Um. Is this Dany as Nissa Nissa??

yes

I stuck on whether the Nissa Nissa path means madness, which I hadn't thought before, but ok, why not? NN must have been crazy to do what she did.

So many mad women, it makes me sad. I really need GRRM to sort this out.

And if Jon sacrifices Dany just to get some stupid sword, I will be exceedingly cross.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I’m not saying Dany will be “mad”. I’m saying she’ll attempt to liberate Westeros as she did Slaver’s Bay. But their situations aren’t the same. 

I did not think you were.   I thought the question was whether or not Dany would kill the Others.  Sorry if I misunderstood.  Insofar as Dany liberating Westeros from the Others or perhaps simply its own politics, perhaps she will or at least play a large role in affecting that end.  I find it interesting that Aegon I waged something of the same campaign.  Did the Targaryens make Westeros a better place?  In some ways yes, but supremacy of one family or group over others isn't necessarily fertile ground for social, individual or cultural growth said the American who has never known a king.  

I don't know any way other than voting and majority rule, such as it is.  There are problems inherent to this way of choosing people, procedures and rules as much as any other.  I have yet to find a perfect way to make everyone happy in a society.  What Dany can do for Westeros is take out an oppressive and apathetic ruler and bring wholesale elimination to the wights--maybe provide some serious warmth in places.  I don't think she has the training, learning or experience to rule Westeros.  She is a conqueror, not a ruler.  Can she learn to rule while traveling to Westeros then conquering Westeros?  

So yes, I agree with the premise that Dany can liberate Westeros to an extent from some of its oppressors.  

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I think she’ll try, but her changes will be so radical that it will be resisted by everyone, and after all she goes through she won’t be willing to back down. And something will have to give, her, or Westeros. 

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I stuck on whether the Nissa Nissa path means madness, which I hadn't thought before, but ok, why not? NN must have been crazy to do what she did.

So many mad women, it makes me sad. I really need GRRM to sort this out.

And if Jon sacrifices Dany just to get some stupid sword, I will be exceedingly cross.

I think the whole thing is stupid, but it is there and we do have to consider the possibility.  I don't think we get a literal sword out of it so much as some weird Jon as Lightbringer thing out of it.   I don't think the idea of Dany going mad is terrible.  Not in Martin's capable hands at any rate.   I think he would do her right.  Dany is a complex and beautiful character.  Why wouldn't she suffer what the broken men do in war?  Her heart, Jon's heart too, truth told, could easily be moved by those horrors.  

Take heart, my friend.  There are plenty of mad men in ASOIAF.  They simply aren't celebrated as the women are.  Madness is a matter of course for our beleaguered brothers in this tale.  

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I think she’ll try, but her changes will be so radical that it will be resisted by everyone, and after all she goes through she won’t be willing to back down. And something will have to give, her, or Westeros. 

Such as?  What do you think she will try to change?

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Such as?  What do you think she will try to change?

Liberating the Smallfolk, ending the Feudal system

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Liberating the Smallfolk, ending the Feudal system

After all the talk of reclaiming her birthright?

I mean to sail to Westeros, and drink the wine of vengeance from the skull of the Usurper."  ACOK Daenerys III

I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros."   ACOK Daenerys IV

The sun set in a blaze of red. I am still half a world from Westeros, Dany reminded herself, but every hour brings me closer. She tried to imagine what it would feel like, when she first caught sight of the land she was born to rule.  ASOS Daenerys I

Remind him that I am Daenerys Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, trueborn queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. My blood is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and of old Valyria before him."  ASOS Daenerys II

No, Dany thought, and the Usurper's dogs will learn that, when I return to Westeros.  ADWD Daenerys I

[LongRider]

How could feudalism be replaced at this time and with what?  If the seasons aren't balanced it doesn't really matter if everyone is dead from cold and starvation.  Dany isn't a ruler I agree, and what does she know of governing and governments?  She wants to be Queen of Westeros, while I don't see her as a bad person, what does she know of ruling?  Really know?  Westeros is going to be cold, starving, and defeated.  What can she bring to the people, more war?  

[Springwatch]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Dany isn't a ruler I agree, and what does she know of governing and governments?  She wants to be Queen of Westeros, while I don't see her as a bad person, what does she know of ruling?  Really know?

Note though that the bar is set pretty low for rulers in Planetos. She's already better than the average.

I don't think there's a great gap between Jon and Dany, that as leader he's the finished article and she can never be. They are both child rulers, as I see it. Jon had the advantage of lessons with Ned till he was fourteen. Dany is keen on her councils and advisors, and uses them productively on the whole. They will both grow into the role. Or not.

 

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Dany is keen on her councils and advisors, and uses them productively on the whole.

I believe she tries to, but starting with Jorah and going forward, it seems they want something from her, and it's not good government, but mostly the dragons and using her for her corrupt plans.  As long as she has the dragons this may not change much.

Jon not only had Ned but also Jeor Mormont as a mentor.  His arc shows what can happen when one person tries to change things too much too fast.  Even if those changes are needed, it doesn't always work out so well.

[Springwatch]

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I believe she tries to, but starting with Jorah and going forward, it seems they want something from her, and it's not good government, but mostly the dragons and using her for her corrupt plans.  As long as she has the dragons this may not change much.

Everyone wants something. As I remember it, most of the advice she got was pretty genuine. Jorah was very shrewd, often. Barristan, honest and principled. The Unsullied and freedmen seem totally devoted. Her military advisors won her three cities. The Meereenese are divided - some of them are sons of the harpy, but probably others have thrown their lot in with Dany. And then there is the Green Grace....

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Jon not only had Ned but also Jeor Mormont as a mentor. 

Jorah probably meant to train Jon up, but he never did. He sent Jon on a ranging. And then stuff kept happening.

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

His arc shows what can happen when one person tries to change things too much too fast.  Even if those changes are needed, it doesn't always work out so well.

Very much, yes.