Who is House Martell seeking vengeance against?

[Foreknown]

We all know that the Lannisters were responsible for the deaths of Elia and her children. And we know that Gregor killed Oberyn during their duel. But with Tywin, Amory Lorche, and Gregor dead who is left for them to seek vengeance against? Everyone responsible for what happened to Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia and Oberyn is dead. Why seek the downfall of House Lannister when most of the Lannister family members had nothing to do with what happened to the Martells. Oberyn sought revenge and an admission of guilt and it got him killed in the end. I think this whole quest for revenge is going to backfire and lead to the ruin of the Martells. 

[Craving Peaches]

I agree. Everyone involved is dead. But the despicable Sand Snakes want to 'transfer' the vengeance on to the innocent Tommen. It will not end well for anyone involved. Sadly I am not rating poor Tommen's chances of survival verify highly so I can only hope the Sand Snakes get their comeuppance eventually.

3 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

Oberyn sought revenge and an admission of guilt and it got him killed in the end.

Yes. I am convinced the reason he (and by extension Tyrion?), lost the trial is because he was trying to use it for vengeance rather than justice. Might make a full post about this later.

[Foreknown]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. I am convinced the reason he (and by extension Tyrion?), lost the trial is because he was trying to use it for vengeance rather than justice. Might make a full post about this later.

I heard that he deliberately drew out the fight in order to extract a confession. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

I heard that he deliberately drew out the fight in order to extract a confession. 

I've heard that one too. But if that was his aim then I think it was a bit silly because everyone who mattered already knew. If he threw his life away for that, it seems a bit selfish to me, given he has a paramour and daughters waiting for him.

Also, the use of poison 'perverted' the trial...

Edited June 1, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. Everyone involved is dead. But the despicable Sand Snakes want to 'transfer' the vengeance on to the innocent Tommen. It will not end well for anyone involved. Sadly I am not rating poor Tommen's chances of survival verify highly so I can only hope the Sand Snakes get their comeuppance eventually.

Yes. I am convinced the reason he (and by extension Tyrion?), lost the trial is because he was trying to use it for vengeance rather than justice. Might make a full post about this later.

I wouldn’t call them despicable. But they aren’t good.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I wouldn’t call them despicable.

They want to murder a little boy who is completely innocent and has done them no harm. And they seem to take extra delight in it. And then on top of that they are then massive hypocrites because it is okay for them to want to do that but when Cersei supposedly wants to do the same they are all surprised.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

They want to murder a little boy who is completely innocent and has done them no harm. And they seem to take extra delight in it. And then on top of that they are then massive hypocrites because it is okay for them to want to do that but when Cersei supposedly wants to do the same they are all surprised.

Their whole motivation for that is for the murder of 3 innocents and the death of their father. I’m not saying they are right or justified for it, but they are clearly hurt by their fathers death and have been raised in their father’s rage. It’s not black and white. 

[Craving Peaches]

31 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Their whole motivation for that is for the murder of 3 innocents and the death of their father. I’m not saying they are right or justified for it, but they are clearly hurt by their fathers death and have been raised in their father’s rage.

Oberyn was not murdered though, he died in a trial by combat that he himself volunteered for. And Tommen has nothing to do with the things they are angry about anyway. They are just perpetuating the cycle of violence needlessly.

Quote

Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?"

Quote

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"

[Ser Leftwich]

"It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads."  - ASoS Tyrion 10

[chrisdaw]

He's half fighting to undo Tywin's legacy and half just reaching to put Martells back on the throne now. And yeah it's going to end terribly, Arianne is going to go full let the world burn mode when Dany kills Aegon and she loses her husband and queenship.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. Everyone involved is dead. But the despicable Sand Snakes want to 'transfer' the vengeance on to the innocent Tommen. It will not end well for anyone involved. Sadly I am not rating poor Tommen's chances of survival verify highly so I can only hope the Sand Snakes get their comeuppance eventually.

Yes. I am convinced the reason he (and by extension Tyrion?), lost the trial is because he was trying to use it for vengeance rather than justice. Might make a full post about this later.

Plus Oldtown in Obara's case.

As for Oberyn losing the trial, Martin wanted to subvert Inigo Montoya.

[astarkchoice]

Its seems.very odd although we are told the dorinish are firey and vengeful so despite tywin and the mountain being dead they still want vengance (whicg oberyns widow has correctly forsawn will lead to disaster) like the sterotype  old scicilian or gypsy  vendetta culture!!

The original plan seems to have been have doran as the good cop (grass) and oberyn as the viper (bad cop) . Oberyn goes to kl.....posions tywin (which i think he did anyway) and then when accused demands a trial by combat so he gets to fight ser gregor , hes prepped his whole life with the spear over in essos with and even marked it with posion to ensure the fight at least ends with vengance and a draw. If the lannisters felt bitter as oberyn escapes and they wanna persue the dornish forces alresdy await in the passes to inflict further losses

The plan of course fucked up royal due to the mountain being an awesome brute and/or oberyns arrogance.

 

But now they wanna punish whats left of the lannister family ...so we are well beyond the already dead 2 who actualy hurt their family!! 

We have one sand snake at oldtown but are told they are playing their own game unrelated to all this and have 0 reason to doubt doran here.

Another whos only niche seems to be 'good with knives' will be sitting on the small council (assasin?) , one is in trying to work the high sparrow(possibly invoke a holy war vs the unclean abomination king)  and a 3rd with swann and hotah hunting darkstar (suspect this is a betrayal and both swann and/or darkstar will be killed)

Overall the dornish  leaders do seem both overly vengeful and at the same time humane...choosing a 'surgical strike ' option over all out war  to protect innocent life(we see this most openly represented by dorans kindness to children of all walks of life in his open public pools) but the 2 issues as we see are both now they have missed their chance their longtime anger has moved to  targets that seem like pure vindictiveness (cersei and jamie etc not innocent but surely unconnected to what ser gregor did) and of cpurse as with all grmm books plans hit reality and fail...their plans to hurt the lannisters and only the lannsiters will of course end up having massive blowback possibly dragiing dorne to war and/or at least a few more sandsnakes dying!!!

[Aebram]

Just to play devil's advocate, I'll point out that Tywin Lannister was known to retaliate against his enemies by extinguishing entire Houses. No doubt that involved the killing of children and other innocents. So if his house is extinguished by the Martells, perhaps it's justice, of a sort.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

No doubt that involved the killing of children and other innocents. So if his house is extinguished by the Martells, perhaps it's justice, of a sort.

But to the majority of Westeros, Tommen is part of House Baratheon, not House Lannister.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Loose Bolt]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But to the majority of Westeros, Tommen is part of House Baratheon, not House Lannister.

But he is Tywin's legacy. Or if Tommen keeps his crown Tywin will win the game of thrones. So Martells cannot win the game if Tommen survives.

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/1/2023 at 7:16 PM, chrisdaw said:

He's half fighting to undo Tywin's legacy and half just reaching to put Martells back on the throne now. And yeah it's going to end terribly, Arianne is going to go full let the world burn mode when Dany kills Aegon and she loses her husband and queenship.

That's if Aegon doesn't get infected first.

In general, I see Doran in particular as a subversion of the chessmaster archetype; he has all these grand plans for revenge but none come to fruition because he doesn't move even to protect his assets (read: Viserys). By the time he's taken action, every target is already gone and the pawns have gallivanted off on their own thing. It would be as if the target of the 47 Rōnin had died of a cold before they took revenge.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[astarkchoice]

29 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That's if Aegon doesn't get infected first.

In general, I see Doran in particular as a subversion of the chessmaster archetype; he has all these grand plans for revenge but none come to fruition because he doesn't move even to protect his assets (read: Viserys). By the time he's taken action, every target is already gone and the pawns have gallivanted off on their own thing. It would be as if the target of the 47 Rōnin had died of a cold before they took revenge.

Yep seems the general rule in asoiaf is that long term plans always go awry. 

[maesternewton]

Oberyn poisoned Tywin, and I'm sure that was planned. 

It seems like the Martells want to undo Tywin's legacy, remove the Lannisters from power and see them turned into nothing.

But that will most likely come with a cost.

I don't buy this theory that Doran was late to his revenge, if anything his revenge is already in motion since he could be working with Qyburn. 

[Alester Florent]

I think Doran's revenge at this point is spent. The three people responsible for the deaths of his sister and her children are dead, and he could even take some pleasure at the ignominious deaths each of them suffered, if he so chose.

I think we're now just into the realm of normal politics. He doesn't like or trust Cersei (rightly so) and he still believes in the Targaryen cause. So he will work to bring down Cersei and work towards a restoration of Aegon and/or Dany.

Arianne's scheming is kind of... aimless. She's sussed out that her family hates the Lannisters, but not what Doran's true agenda was. So she implements a half-baked plan to challenge Cersei's rule via Tommen, deploying Myrcella. That plan failed almost immediately and has now been abandoned.

The Sand Snakes want to unleash violence to satiate their own grief at losing Oberyn. The reasons why this is bad and dumb are spelled out in the text itself in some detail. The Sand Snakes aren't representative of Martell policy, though: they're not even real Martells, after all.

[sifth]

The Mountain is still alive..........sort of. So there is still one person out there responsible for the death of his loved ones.